Cameras: Coming Full Circle

[Les Olson]

I see, so this is a generic problem for all CMOS sensors, rather than already a significant problem with the X1D, correct?

No, heat is a problem with all sensors, and that raises a question about the X1D specifically.  The Hasselblad H3D digital back had a fan to disperse heat, like desktop computers.  That did not work very well, and the H3DII and later backs had heat sinks.  So Hasselblad believed it needed to manage heat build-up with the larger sensors.  But, of course, they have not previously been concerned about size and weight, and now they are.  So it is not unreasonable to ask if heat management is as effective in the X1D as in the larger backs using the same size sensor, or to be concerned that if it was not image quality might suffer - as it did in the H3D. 

[Michael Erlewine]

Wonderful capture, as a result, you may have 3 discrete systems in your 2017 future, Fujifilm, Hasselblad, and the D810 replacement, sounds like a grand adventure, happy shooting. When I listen to U2, "I still haven't found what I'm looking for..." I will fondly think of your quest. Sounds like fun. Thanks for sharing.

It is becoming clear that even if Nikon comes across with a 50 Mpx FF camera, it may be too little, too late. I believe I may get used to the MF Sony 50 Mpx  sensor on MF cameras, which is not the same as a Nikon D810 with 50 Mpx FF.  This failure to update the D810 may have wider repercussions in that folks like myself may discover that FF 50 Mpx does not measure up to MF 50 Mpx and switch over.

As for heat, my point is that let's wait until we have the camera in hand and its too hot before we declare a problem to be a fact. Very few people have this camera and the one person I know who does says only that it is warm, but not a problem.

[John Koerner]

It is becoming clear that even if Nikon comes across with a 50 Mpx FF camera, it may be too little, too late. I believe I may get used to the MF Sony 50 Mpx  sensor on MF cameras, which is not the same as a Nikon D810 with 50 Mpx FF.  This failure to update the D810 may have wider repercussions in that folks like myself may discover that FF 50 Mpx does not measure up to MF 50 Mpx and switch over.

As for heat, my point is that let's wait until we have the camera in hand and its too hot before we declare a problem to be a fact. Very few people have this camera and the one person I know who does says only that it is warm, but not a problem.

This is ridiculous. The Nikon D810 is only over 2 years old. There has been no "delay" in its successor at all, it's just that a lot of other cameras have gained in ability.

It took Canon 7 years to update the 7D, and you're complaining that the D810 hasn't had an upgrade in a mere 2 years?

The simple fact is, the D810 is such a good camera that it was absolutely peerless when it came out 2 years ago ... peerless, unparalleled ... to the extent DP Review just did a recent review of it this year, citing that the D810 remains a benchmark in Base ISO capability to this day.

There is nothing wrong with you wanting to explore the Hasselblad, people have the right to do whatever they want.

But to "blame" the D810 for being anything other than a revolutionary camera ... and still a great camera ... is both offbase and wrong.

Jack

[D800Dominic]

I have to ask, is there no one else who finds the Haselblad X1D interesting? By all means, read Ming Thein’s articles on this new camera. Here is one of them:

https://blog.mingthein.com/2016/07/06/hasselblad-x1d-early-impressions-with-samples/#more-13288

   And here is an excerpt about the sensor: “Sensor image quality: at least identical to, if not slightly better than, the H5/6 – I think it’s because of accuracy of focus more than anything or newer lens designs. High ISOs are perhaps half a stop cleaner, and there’s now both auto ISO, 12k and 25k settings. I have requested the ability to adjust the auto-parameters. Color, dynamic range, and tonal response are identical to the H5/6 – which in my opinion, is the best you can get, period. Think 14-15 stops and almost zero profiling required, with a very natural highlight rolloff. See for yourself, in any case.”

I am and have been waiting for the Nikon D820 (or whatever number) IMO too long and I’m moving on. Should they come out with a larger sensor, 50 Mpx or larger, I no-doubt will order one the first day they are offered. Why try and talk me out of it? I am not sticking my head in the sand as far as new cameras, but taking action to keep my progress alive and moving. I believe I have given all my reasons why I like the X1D, including that I want a small kit to travel with, now that I am retired. Perhaps I will show up at a gathering near you and we can meet? Or you might like to come here and see the beauty of Michigan?

I am confused, has Nikon missed their announce/release schedule for the D810? Having said that, perhaps there is truth to be found in the level of precision that a small medium format sensor can provide over the limitations of the full format sensor. That appears to be the Fujifilm schema. I am rooting for them because of their customer service, technical prowess, wow factor with their optical lens development.

[bjornthun]

But the company producing the X1D has no connection whatever with Hasselblad's heritage.  Victor Hasselblad's company was sold in 1996, but Hasselblad management was involved in the buy-out.  In 2002 the development of a digital camera was cancelled and the team working on it was dispersed.  A majority stake in the company was sold in 2002, to Shriro, a Hong Kong-based firm which does mainly distribution and marketing.  The new owners decided to restart the development of a digital camera, and bought Imacon, a scanner company, for its expertise in sensors and image processing.  100% of the company was sold in 2011 to a venture capital fund run by a guy called Helmut Vorndran (he is relatively progressive, as venture capitalists go, but the core strategy is buy, restructure, and re-sell, not long term management).  These are the owners who made the Lunar and the Stellar, and have now made the X1D. 

Nikon has a much longer experience with mirror boxes than Hasselblad has with sensors, but that did not prevent the D600 fiasco - and Nikon has not had three changes of ownership in 20 years.

Nikon is traded on various tech stock markets. Here is a link to that information from Nikon, http://nikon.com/about/ir/stock_info/status/index.htm. Nikon has many owners, some are long term, others buy the stock for speculation. The largest one hold 7.5% of the stocks in the company. Nikon management may continuously have to please the investors and stock market.

Although Hasselblad has switched owners, that doesn't mean they don't know digital sensors and digital design in 2016. That knowledge is just as good, even if it's inherited from Imacon. Whatever they knew in 1996 or 2002 would need to be updated by today anyway. Nikon was still using CCD sensors back then, and those were 2-6mp resolution devices and had no liveview.

What you see now is the shift from DSLR to mirrorless in the medium format world.

[Ilkka Nissilä]

So none of the people working on the X1D are the same that were involved in the development of their other medium format products? I would think they share some of the same engineers and manufacturing personnel between these project.  I am talking about their digital SLR heritage not the film. Making a film camera teaches nothing about thermal management in a large sensor digital camera, but making a MF DSLR or digital back does, or should.

The D600 oil came from the new, quieter shutter unit that they used for the first time; this has nothing to do with the mirror. Nikon's manufacturing infrastructure was largely destroyed in a series of natural disasters in Thailand and Japan in 2011, not to mention the infrastructure of Japanese east coast. It is surprising that they could manufacture anything at all as soon as 2012, let alone something that works correctly.

[bjornthun]

So, if heat becomes a problem with the X1D, maybe there'll be cheap used X1Ds that we can use in the winter in Norway and Finland... 

[David H. Hartman]

I am confused, has Nikon missed their announce/release schedule for the D810? Having said that, perhaps there is truth to be found in the level of precision that a small medium format sensor can provide over the limitations of the full format sensor. That appears to be the Fujifilm schema. I am rooting for them because of their customer service, technical prowess, wow factor with their optical lens development.

Size matters and larger formats have advantages the APS-C format will never have. With a 36x24mm format camera one can blur the background quite easily when shooting candid photos of people and can do this while maintaining natural perspective. The APS-C formats can blur background also but when the perspective is natural then the blurring will usually be quite insufficient to make features of the background indistinguishable. To get the kind of blurring I want I have to use the same focal length lenses on APS-C as on FX. The first lens that does much for me is the 85/2.0 lens but to frame as I wish I'll have to backup and the perspective will flatten. Medium format 6x4.5 to 6x7 in an SLR format is even better in this regard. There are trade-offs and the APS-C formats offer more practical DoF. Background blurring is not DoF though most make this mistake. The absolute physical size or more correctly the entrance pupil size is responsible for the blurring of the background when the background is well outside the DoF zone.

Anyway APS-C or DX is for me no replacement for Full Format, 36x24mm or FX. I need that format first and APS-C later. Because of the cost of medium format I will probably never own one of these camera. In the film era I shots 35mm, 4x5 and 6x6 and 6x7.

At this point I have no interest in an EVF camera that is 36x24 or smaller. I'd have to see if I could get interested in an EVF that is 645 or larger.

Dave

[Les Olson]

Nikon is traded on various tech stock markets. Here is a link to that information from Nikon, http://nikon.com/about/ir/stock_info/status/index.htm. Nikon has many owners, some are long term, others buy the stock for speculation. The largest one hold 7.5% of the stocks in the company. Nikon management may continuously have to please the investors and stock market.   

Although Hasselblad has switched owners, that doesn't mean they don't know digital sensors and digital design in 2016. That knowledge is just as good, even if it's inherited from Imacon. Whatever they knew in 1996 or 2002 would need to be updated by today anyway. Nikon was still using CCD sensors back then, and those were 2-6mp resolution devices and had no liveview.

What you see now is the shift from DSLR to mirrorless in the medium format world.

As a generalisation, with all the limitations that implies, Japanese companies pay less attention to share price than US or European companies.  The reason is the very high level of interlocking stock ownership among a group of Japanese corporations - the keiretsu system.  Nikon, eg, is part of the Mitsubishi keiretsu.  This is important because, provided the keiretsu is happy, companies can absorb losses on a product line that a US or European company could not tolerate - Olympus' camera business, eg.

You were the one who promoted Hasselblad heritage as a consideration, not me.  If you now want to say that all knowledge about sensors is obsolete every two years so heritage doesn't matter, that is fine by me. 

Why would we care that the X1D is the first mirrorless "medium format" (with a lot of makeup and the light behind it)?  Saying that it represents "the shift", as if it had already happened, is a baseless claim.   

[Roland Vink]

https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/2280876023/hasselblad-interview-at-photokina-2016

The body is made in three parts, all machined from a block of aluminium [...] As well as the way it feels, it’s also good for transferring heat from the sensor. We have a tight connection between parts, which also helps transfer heat away from the processor – it’s an efficient way of minimizing problems with internal heat.

[bjornthun]

As a generalisation, with all the limitations that implies, Japanese companies pay less attention to share price than US or European companies.  The reason is the very high level of interlocking stock ownership among a group of Japanese corporations - the keiretsu system.  Nikon, eg, is part of the Mitsubishi keiretsu.  This is important because, provided the keiretsu is happy, companies can absorb losses on a product line that a US or European company could not tolerate - Olympus' camera business, eg.

You were the one who promoted Hasselblad heritage as a consideration, not me.  If you now want to say that all knowledge about sensors is obsolete every two years so heritage doesn't matter, that is fine by me. 

Why would we care that the X1D is the first mirrorless "medium format" (with a lot of makeup and the light behind it)?  Saying that it represents "the shift", as if it had already happened, is a baseless claim.

Nikon has quite few owners, more than could belong to the keiretsu, and yes keiretsu is a known concept. Note that 29.9% of Nikon owners are foreign, i.e. not Japanese. You would have seen this in the link I provided.

I did not say that the Hasselblad X1D is "the shift" to mirrorless MF, but it's a part of that process. That process happens now.

Hasselblad has a very nice heritage, except the Lunar and Stellar cameras.

I think that the Hasselblad X1D will turn out to be a great camera, probably the finest since the 500 and 200 series.

[Michael Erlewine]

I did not say that the Hasselblad X1D is "the shift" to mirrorless MF, but it's a part of that process. That process happens now.

I think that the Hasselblad X1D will turn out to be a great camera, probably the finest since the 500 and 200 series.

Well, the shift seems to this user to be at hand. Its a fact that the Hasselblad X1D is a mirrorless camera and it seems like a very good job of it as well. The difference, as I mentioned in an earlier comment, between a 50 Mpx sensor on a 35mm FF DSLR and the Sony 50 Mpx sensor as implemented on the various Hasselblad systems is very sobering for those of us who have been waiting for Nikon to issue a D820 -- another (but larger) FF DSLR. There is apparently a very real difference, enough for this user to see why a shift to a MF sized system is not just an alternative, but something perhaps more imperative than that.

The Sony 50 Mpx MF sensor has been fully explored on the existing Hasselblads and is quite wonderful IMO. I am not that technical, so I appreciate those here who are pointing out the difference between a larger FF sensor and a MF sensor/lens of the same size. I did not fully understand that before, so this thread has been very helpful. Whether it is the Hasselblad X1d or the new Fuju MF camera is not as important as the difference outlined above.

[Les Olson]

https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/2280876023/hasselblad-interview-at-photokina-2016

And the same guy went on to say "Of course, when a product gets warm it uses a lot of energy. It drains the battery faster."  Nothing like marketing driven by science, is there?   

The obvious weakness in the claim that the body of the X1D can be an effective heat sink is the fact that the all the previous backs with the same size sensor required internal heat sinks. 

[bjornthun]

And the same guy went on to say "Of course, when a product gets warm it uses a lot of energy. It drains the battery faster."  Nothing like marketing driven by science, is there?   

The obvious weakness in the claim that the body of the X1D can be an effective heat sink is the fact that the all the previous backs with the same size sensor required internal heat sinks.

There is no reason why a heatspreader shaped like the body of an X1D would not be efficient. If you consider the shapes of heatspreaders in custom built PCs, it's clear thatvthe heatspreader inside a digital back on a DSLR will be quite small, compared to an X1D aluminum body. The heatspreader inside a digital back may have fins but they would still be small andcwithout a fan. In short the X1Dvaluminum body seems to be a smart solution. Btw. a copper body would lead heat even better...

The box shaped V1D concept camera would, if built,  allow testing of the hypothesis that a digital back on a DSLR would provide better disipation of heat from the sensor.

[Michael Erlewine]

When I asked Ming Thein, who has actually shot with an early version of the X1D, as to the difference between a 50 MPx Nikon D820 and the Sony 50 Mpx sensor in MF cameras, he responded:

"The difference is certainly tangible. I’ve shot somewhere in the 100,000 image range with the D810, 5DSR and 7RII combined; none of them can really challenge the 50MP 44×33 sensor. And that sensor can really run away under the right conditions…regardless of the implementation (confirmed from my own use of four different Hasselblad models, the Pentax, and the Phase One implementations). No question it is my sensor of choice now, and the Hasselblad implementation has the most natural looking tonal range rendition (the Pentax is too linear) and most natural color (the Phase is too cool)."