Author Topic: Discussion of 'Equivalence'  (Read 49471 times)

simsurace

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #150 on: May 18, 2017, 01:32:21 »
I hope so. But this should not be a dialogue. I will stop for a moment and see what others have to say.
Simone Carlo Surace
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JohnMM

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #151 on: May 18, 2017, 03:27:38 »
I will stop for a moment and see what others have to say.

I cannot speak for others but my own experience does seem to have something in common with yours.

I started taking photos about 10 years ago when I bought a Nikon D40X (+bits) following early retirement. My instruction in the arts of photography was via internet forums such as this. Unfortunately the forums were dominated by (35 mm) film users and experiences relating to film were somehow expected to translate to digital. So that I was told to "expose for the highlights and develop for the shadows" - or maybe it was the other way round. "Exposure" was after all "universal" and if you understood it for film then skills were easily transferable to digital. Only later (see below) did I discover that digital is essentially linear, film is non-linear, there are differences between the two, and  setting the exposure for digital is in fact much easier than for film. The "exposure triangle" caused problems. I could never work out how ISO affected "exposure". Digital noise was described as digital grain - again something I couldn't understand.

And then I discovered a number of well written essays which described, in simple scientific terms, the basic principles underlying photography. These include the "Equivalence" paper by Joseph James, a paper on noise by Martinec, "Toothwalker" talking about abberrations, and quite a few others. And a veil had been lifted. The idea that light itself was noisy was a revelation. I understood "Exposure". There was no "good exposure", no "bad exposure", no "underexposure" .... I was the photographer and I was in control of it. And there was a  lot of other stuff....

Finally understanding the basics of photography made the subject more enjoyable and it made me into a better photographer. I speak for no-one else. However if someone asks, I would encourage them to read the papers by James and others and to consider adopting their methods. Some will say that they don't have the background. I am fortunate in that I have had many years studying and teaching physical sciences. So the language and methods of James and others are quite natural and accessible. However I think that with a bit a work they are accessible to many others. The theories are more are less sound and accepted by many in the scientific and engineering community - I am talking about physicists and electronic engineers - people who design the sensors that you use in your cameras. Sure - they argue about details. But the basic physics is sound - most light sources are noisy - the use of the term "digital grain" is not helpful. And the theories make practical photography easier - for some of us at least.

Those photographers who reject the ideas of James might like to ask why his ideas are endorsed by so many of those who design the cameras that they themselves use.

I would not seek to force anyone to use ideas that make them uncomfortable. I have taught at all levels and and think it quite proper to use simple explanations where possible. However sometimes the simplification goes so far that it is simply "wrong". Some of the ideas which are the legacy of the film era fall into that category. I choose to use alternative, and what I consider to be better, methods. What I fail to understand is why there is so much hostility to my choice.

Finally, many thanks to Simone. Even if you don't agree with him (and I do for the most part) the clarity of his discourse is impressive. In the past I have actively participated in discussions such as this. Personal difficulties have prevented me from offering more support on this occasion.

 

John Maud - aka Coreopsis in another place.

bclaff

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #152 on: May 18, 2017, 04:30:20 »
... The "exposure triangle" caused problems. I could never work out how ISO affected "exposure". ...
A "fools errand" since the ISO setting does not directly affect exposure only indirectly (if at all) through the effect on aperture and/or shutter.
(This is entire "argument" on it's own. Let's no go there. :) )
...
And then I discovered a number of well written essays which described, in simple scientific terms, the basic principles underlying photography. These include the "Equivalence" paper by Joseph James, a paper on noise by Martinec, ...
Emil Martinec's paper is a classic and since he has let the original copy fall into disrepair with his permission there is a copy on my site where I have repaired all the broken links.
Noise, Dynamic Range and Bit Depth in Digital SLRs by Emil Martinec

tommiejeep

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #153 on: May 18, 2017, 05:14:27 »

If you want to frame a shot in a particular way then you might need lens with an appropriate focal length.
If you want a shallow Depth Of Field (DOF) you wouldn't choose a f/4 lens.
If you want a certain level of shadow detail then you must have sufficient dynamic range to capture it.

If you don't frame your shot perfectly, often you can crop to taste; but not if what you require is out of frame.
If you get too much DOF, often you can soften is post processing; but if you got too little you cannot recover what is lost.
If you get too much detail in the shadows, that's easy to hide; but if you didn't get enough you cannot recover it.

Colour isn't "better" than B&W; but if you want color photographs you don't purchase a monochrome camera.

Well Bill, why let common sense enter into a discussion of Equivalence  ;)

Since I am a shooter, and not a photographer, I have to learn for myself what a camera is capable of in meeting my needs/desires.  When making a new purchase I do pay attention to what you and a few others say , start sending emails and PMs to people that use cameras for what I shoot (normally Sport and birds) .  Normally looking for hints on usable ISO, Auto ISO, Auto WB, tint, Focus Pt. selection, Buffer.  I rarely get to set up for an image which has great BG, and light .  When I go to the effort of setting up the 500 vr  in, what I think,  is the perfect location, the intended targets and light seldom cooperate (birds, athletes or Gods) .  Which is why I normally have a favourite camera with the 300 2.8 standing beside me  :) 

 It is all about the amount of light, and more importantly,  the quality of light and direction.  I do therefore spend more time in recovery mode than I would like but some cameras are just faster, and better, at reaction to fast changing conditions than others.  Yes, some cameras are better at recovery than others.

I think Bjorn's advice to Jakov, early in the thread, works for me.

I rarely, this could be a first, enter into these "Equivalence Discussions",
Just my two Rupees
Good to see you here  :)
Edit: ....and I remember when I thought the D300/D3 were the best things I could ever dream of  ;)
Tom Hardin, Goa, India

bclaff

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #154 on: May 18, 2017, 05:23:02 »
Well Bill, why let common sense enter into a discussion of Equivalence  ;)
...
I rarely, this could be a first, enter into these "Equivalence Discussions",
Nor I. I'm here on the sub-topic of normalized dynamic range, in particular my Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR).
"Equivalence Discussions" don't interest me.
Good to see you here  :)
Thanks :)

Andrea B.

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #155 on: May 18, 2017, 05:54:29 »
That there is so much resistance here and elsewhere makes this an interesting topic for me. There must be reasons for the controversy. One of them is that many people always conflate technical discussions with art, and demand that any discussion has a net result in terms of artistic growth. You don't get that from this discussion. You might walk away with a better sense of how to evaluate your tools.

That is a good summation, Simone.
I also thank you for opening the discussion. You write very clearly. And you are also able to understand how others veer off the topic because of personal or emotional reactions and respond rationally to that.

Thanks also to Bill for joining in.


I'm still sorting through various notions of 'dynamic range'. The range of zones in a scene. The range of light capturable by the photosite. The range of tones in the actual photograph. No one has mentioned the dynamic range (or is that engineering dynamic range?) of our own little eyeballs.  :D I need to go look that one up because I'm wondering if the camera sees more zones than I do or is it the opposite?

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #156 on: May 18, 2017, 06:55:50 »
The dominant term in PDR for a given generation of sensor technology is sensor size.

Yet, this dominant factor is cloaked in mysterious equations and models.

To those who have used film in various sizes it is the case that "we hold these truths to be self-evident". Size makes a difference.

Whether it is a good difference or a bad one is dependent on use. I love the small sensor size in my phone as I get large depth of field. I love the larger sensor (and pixel) size in my Df as I can see in near darkness.

Made-up dimensions such as photographic dynamic range (which differentiates mostly on size rather than true dynamic range) only baffle newcomers and offers a dimension of comparison which is not tied to the true practice of photography which is selecting a system which will deliver on the vision of the photographer.

Selection and use of a format is best done by understanding the capabilities that each format brings, rather than some normalized measure in which the dominant factor is the size of the format.

It is this narrowing of discussion, this focus on normalization, the act of reduction, which experienced photographers react to.And in my case, attaching a label to this measure which bears little resemblance or relation to accepted definition puts the nail in the coffin.

As a thought exercise, I can see the value this might have to some photographers, but for those of us who have used more than a couple of formats, the results of size are already self-evident.

simsurace

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #157 on: May 18, 2017, 10:09:20 »
I'm still sorting through various notions of 'dynamic range'. The range of zones in a scene. The range of light capturable by the photosite. The range of tones in the actual photograph. No one has mentioned the dynamic range (or is that engineering dynamic range?) of our own little eyeballs.  :D I need to go look that one up because I'm wondering if the camera sees more zones than I do or is it the opposite?

I dont know how far you got in your research, but this might be of some help.

Total dynamic range of the human visual system is huge. It goes from brightness that is damaging to the eye down to individual photon detection (even though that is subconsious, a brain signal in response to a single photon can be recorded).

However, this huge dynamic range requires adaptation, some of which requires time. There is iris adaptation, photoreceptor adaptation as well as adaptation in the visual pathway. There are rods and cones and they don't have the same sensitivity. In a short time interval, the range of light that can be seen is still estimated to be on the order of 20 stops, and thus higher that what we can currently record.

Cameras function very differently from our eyes. They linearly record the light level, while our eye has processing built in at the earliest stages to extract relevant features (eyes evolved because they enable better control of muscles in order to survive in a complex environment).

We could have designed cameras to be more similar to eyes, but we haven't, because they would double the processing that is going on in our visual system when we look at the final image. This is probably why we design cameras and output media to yield the most accurate recording that is possible, even though we have a long way to go. It gives us more freedom to manipulate the process to achieve what we want (and this might be different than what the naked eye sees).

Cameras that are designed for robotics, on the other hand, can be more closely modeled after human eyes, because conventional cameras record too much information that is not required for artificial vision, requiring too much digital processing that either requires a lot of energy, or is too time consuming to enable fast reaction times. Designing camera sensors that are functioning similarly as the retina is an active research topic, there was some important work done also at my institute (I do not work in this field though). Have a look at http://siliconretina.ini.uzh.ch/wiki/index.php if you are interested in this topic.
Simone Carlo Surace
suracephoto.com

simsurace

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #158 on: May 18, 2017, 10:44:31 »
The dominant term in PDR for a given generation of sensor technology is sensor size.

Yet, this dominant factor is cloaked in mysterious equations and models.

To those who have used film in various sizes it is the case that "we hold these truths to be self-evident". Size makes a difference.

Whether it is a good difference or a bad one is dependent on use. I love the small sensor size in my phone as I get large depth of field. I love the larger sensor (and pixel) size in my Df as I can see in near darkness.

Made-up dimensions such as photographic dynamic range (which differentiates mostly on size rather than true dynamic range) only baffle newcomers and offers a dimension of comparison which is not tied to the true practice of photography which is selecting a system which will deliver on the vision of the photographer.

Selection and use of a format is best done by understanding the capabilities that each format brings, rather than some normalized measure in which the dominant factor is the size of the format.

It is this narrowing of discussion, this focus on normalization, the act of reduction, which experienced photographers react to.And in my case, attaching a label to this measure which bears little resemblance or relation to accepted definition puts the nail in the coffin.

As a thought exercise, I can see the value this might have to some photographers, but for those of us who have used more than a couple of formats, the results of size are already self-evident.

Ok, I get your point. I think for your uses (and way of thinking), a per-area measure of DR would be more suitable, as that does not include the size of the sensor, but it normalizes for the different pixel densities.
It would be quite easy to make a display of this data similar to what Bill Claff did with PDR. Sensors that are made of the same circuitry, but have different sizes, would end up giving the same values. But also sensors of the same size that do not use the same circuitry, but have different pixel densities while having similar noise properties per unit area, would be rated at the same value. The effect of format size would be left for the reader to consider in addition.

Maybe one could have display toggles for 'normalize for secondary magnification' and 'normalize for pixel density', to allow the reader to choose the method he/she prefers. I don't know whether Bill Claff is open to such a possibility.
Simone Carlo Surace
suracephoto.com

Bent Hjarbo

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #159 on: May 18, 2017, 11:40:32 »
An important thing to know when we decide on which equipment to use is how it impact the picture, DOF, AOV etc.
I think that all agree that there are difference in noise performance on different sensor sizes, and that this changes with time due to development in the IC technology.
I will not go into the discussion on the PDR, but I would like to throw a couple of pictures into this thread ;)
I took my D800, which has a DX mode, and found a 24mm and a 35mm as they have nearly the AOV in the two modes.
I placed three objects to see the DOF in the two modes.
The result was that the background blur was less in DX mode, but it also seems that the exposure was different even though the D800 was in manual mode?
Maybe there is an explanation in some of this discussion.

Les Olson

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #160 on: May 18, 2017, 11:43:50 »
That there is so much resistance here and elsewhere makes this an interesting topic for me. There must be reasons for the controversy. One of them is that many people always conflate technical discussions with art, and demand that any discussion has a net result in terms of artistic growth. You don't get that from this discussion. You might walk away with a better sense of how to evaluate your tools.

No one has mentioned the dynamic range (or is that engineering dynamic range?) of our own little eyeballs.  :D I need to go look that one up because I'm wondering if the camera sees more zones than I do or is it the opposite?

Of course the discussion has to come back to actual photographs.  Otherwise we are like doctors evaluating a drug without asking whether the patients get better, or cooks talking about emulsion stability while ignoring the taste of the hollandaise. 

The issue is not whether evaluating cameras would be useful but whether the metrics we are being presented with are, in fact, useful for evaluation.  People like to feel that they understand and are in control, and that creates a powerful urge to evaluate and rank, and a metric is the tool you need to achieve that.  The urge to evaluate and rank is so strong that people will use metrics knowing they are misleading because that is all they have, like the drunk looking for his keys under the street-lamp because that is where the light is, or a photographer comparing Imatest results across systems.  As a result, the world is full of metrics, and people are so relieved by the feeling of understanding and control that they ignore the fact that very few metrics are adequately tested, and of those that are very few perform adequately.  Many metrics widely used for evaluation and ranking do not, in fact, predict with any accuracy the outcome we are really interested in: BMI as a metric of obesity-related illness and exam results as a metric of school performance, eg. 

To assess the performance of a metric we need a gold standard: "the outcome we are really interested in".  In some cases "the outcome we are really interested in" is clear - morbidity and mortality in the case of BMI, eg.  So what is "the outcome we are really interested in" when we use a metric to evaluate cameras?  If it is not the appearance of the photographs, what is it, and what is the basis for that choice?  What we have at present is circularity: "Dynamic range is the relevant outcome because that is what we measure to evaluate cameras", or "Equivalence at identical framing and output size is the relevant outcome because that is how we calculate equivalence".   

There is also the issue that metrics are promoted and criticised for commercial reasons.  Of course someone who wants to sell you equipment to measure MTF50 or perceptual megapixels will tell you that is the metric you need to evaluate your equipment and that looking at your prints is inadequate. 

Asking for the dynamic range of the eye is the wrong question: we never see the image formed in the eye, only a heavily post-processed version.  The dynamic range of the human visual system is far higher than any photographic system, but we cheat.  If we look at a high contrast scene - a person sitting in deep shade and a background in bright sun, eg - we have the impression we see both at once because we switch between the two areas without being aware of it. It is the same as depth of field, which we are not aware of because we switch from near to far without noticing, so everything appears to be in focus all the time. 

JohnMM

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #161 on: May 18, 2017, 12:24:04 »
Maybe there is an explanation in some of this discussion.

Is the aperture f/5.6 in each case?
John Maud - aka Coreopsis in another place.

simsurace

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #162 on: May 18, 2017, 12:57:51 »
Of course the discussion has to come back to actual photographs.  Otherwise we are like doctors evaluating a drug without asking whether the patients get better, or cooks talking about emulsion stability while ignoring the taste of the hollandaise. 

The issue is not whether evaluating cameras would be useful but whether the metrics we are being presented with are, in fact, useful for evaluation.  People like to feel that they understand and are in control, and that creates a powerful urge to evaluate and rank, and a metric is the tool you need to achieve that.  The urge to evaluate and rank is so strong that people will use metrics knowing they are misleading because that is all they have, like the drunk looking for his keys under the street-lamp because that is where the light is, or a photographer comparing Imatest results across systems.  As a result, the world is full of metrics, and people are so relieved by the feeling of understanding and control that they ignore the fact that very few metrics are adequately tested, and of those that are very few perform adequately.  Many metrics widely used for evaluation and ranking do not, in fact, predict with any accuracy the outcome we are really interested in: BMI as a metric of obesity-related illness and exam results as a metric of school performance, eg. 

To assess the performance of a metric we need a gold standard: "the outcome we are really interested in".  In some cases "the outcome we are really interested in" is clear - morbidity and mortality in the case of BMI, eg.  So what is "the outcome we are really interested in" when we use a metric to evaluate cameras?  If it is not the appearance of the photographs, what is it, and what is the basis for that choice?  What we have at present is circularity: "Dynamic range is the relevant outcome because that is what we measure to evaluate cameras", or "Equivalence at identical framing and output size is the relevant outcome because that is how we calculate equivalence".   

There is also the issue that metrics are promoted and criticised for commercial reasons.  Of course someone who wants to sell you equipment to measure MTF50 or perceptual megapixels will tell you that is the metric you need to evaluate your equipment and that looking at your prints is inadequate. 

Asking for the dynamic range of the eye is the wrong question: we never see the image formed in the eye, only a heavily post-processed version.  The dynamic range of the human visual system is far higher than any photographic system, but we cheat.  If we look at a high contrast scene - a person sitting in deep shade and a background in bright sun, eg - we have the impression we see both at once because we switch between the two areas without being aware of it. It is the same as depth of field, which we are not aware of because we switch from near to far without noticing, so everything appears to be in focus all the time.

I agree that we have to connect back to photographs.
However, I claim that this is different than connecting to judgements about artistic merits or usefulness. That, I believe, is for each individual photographer to figure out.

The metrics we use to evaluate cameras do have a clear connection with appearance of photographs. The differences in DR, for example will show up given a suitable output medium. The differences will not show up given inadequate viewing conditions, but the question of perceptual threshold comes in, merely smoothing out the differences that could potentially exist.

One reason why we tend to think that it does not matter is that cameras are already very good. This difference is, however, quantitative, not qualitative. If cameras were much worse, we would feel an urgent need to improve them, and that would involve said metrics. The fact that cameras are so good means that we have to push harder to get to the limits, but many photographers will go to these limits and will make use of the full DR or whatever technical capability is available. If they established that the current gear does not allow them to do what they want, they look at these metrics to decide where to find improvement.

The point about commercial interests is taken. However, I think that we get more resistant to marketing BS because of discussions like this. Even if some concepts were originated (allegedly) by camera manufacturers, they have been taken up by others (e.g. is Joseph James an employee of a camera maker? I think not) and can now be used against the same companies, so the net result is that it does not matter where the concepts originally came from, but what we can use them for today.
Simone Carlo Surace
suracephoto.com

Bent Hjarbo

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #163 on: May 18, 2017, 15:02:04 »
Is the aperture f/5.6 in each case?
Yes f5.6 in each case, but different focal lenght. 

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #164 on: May 18, 2017, 18:21:16 »
Basic knowledge of photographic theory (*not* the equivalence kind)  would immediately point out why you got  the observed result (hint: magnification of detail differs although perspective and angle of captured view are similar (angle of true coverage of each lens are is different though, but is clipped to a common framing by the different formats)). One also immediately realises there is no change in dynamic range, again as expected from photographic theory because the same sensor is involved and the same aperture/exposure time is used.