Author Topic: Discussion of 'Equivalence'  (Read 56043 times)

bclaff

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #135 on: May 17, 2017, 19:22:46 »
- Les Olson argues (again, if I understood him, if not, please correct me and provide clarification) that all DR measures are useless
...  The fact that in some cases, a bit of shadow or highlight detail is also left out is just part of the same process.  The idea that more sensor dynamic range means better photographs because less is left out is as inane as the idea that colour is better than B&W.
...
If you want to frame a shot in a particular way then you might need lens with an appropriate focal length.
If you want a shallow Depth Of Field (DOF) you wouldn't choose a f/4 lens.
If you want a certain level of shadow detail then you must have sufficient dynamic range to capture it.

If you don't frame your shot perfectly, often you can crop to taste; but not if what you require is out of frame.
If you get too much DOF, often you can soften is post processing; but if you got too little you cannot recover what is lost.
If you get too much detail in the shadows, that's easy to hide; but if you didn't get enough you cannot recover it.

Colour isn't "better" than B&W; but if you want color photographs you don't purchase a monochrome camera.

David H. Hartman

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #136 on: May 17, 2017, 21:30:06 »
Because the test is supposed to be a test of the gear for photography, and requiring a standardised output means it isn't.

The test is supposed to be what it creator states that it is, nothing more, nothing less.

Can one safely generalize from it? Not with complete safety. Is it good enough to use to help select a camera? I think so.

Dave Hartman

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David H. Hartman

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #137 on: May 17, 2017, 21:45:03 »
Normalisation removes degree(s) of freedom.

Not for the photographer who buys a camera *in part* based on these test. Not for the photographer who buy a camera for practical use.


Instead assumptions are inserted that might not apply for the person trying to use the model.

They should read and understand the test and its limitations. Whether they will or not isn't the fault of the test or its creator.


All of this makes it quite hard to come up with testable predictions of any practical value.

I think the test has good degree of value. I don't think it's perfect.

The theorists should start removing any of the many sources for circular reasoning.

Yes and maybe version II will do this. Maybe this discussion will help.

Cheers!

Dave

Looking for the flaws certainly has value. I don't find them sufficient to toss the graphs in the dust bin.

---

Bjørn,

With your very significant training in science and it's methods this discussion must be trying. My degree of training in science amounts to a learners permit.

Cheers!

Dave
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #138 on: May 17, 2017, 21:56:13 »
The idea that more sensor dynamic range means better photographs because less is left out is as inane as the idea that colour is better than B&W or video is better than still photography because less is left out.

You lost me here. Not that I don't understand what you wrote. I was agreeing with you up to this point.

Dave
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Les Olson

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #139 on: May 17, 2017, 22:04:37 »
I understand your argument, but I was never making any claims regarding artistic importance. More dynamic range does not equal better photographs.

Then why are we talking about it?  Why would a photographer be interested in the dynamic range of different cameras if dynamic range does not have some connection with better photographs? 

Of course, it is possible that greater dynamic range could find a photographic use, but the counter-example of colour is relevant to that hope: "Most color photography, in short, has been either formless or pretty. In the first case the meanings of color have been ignored; in the second they have been at the expense of allusive meanings. While editing directly from life, photographers found it difficult to see simultaneously both the blue and the sky." (John Szarkowski).

Les Olson

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #140 on: May 17, 2017, 22:10:06 »
You lost me here. Not that I don't understand what you wrote. I was agreeing with you up to this point.

You think that if my camera takes 10 frames per second I have done twice as much photography as if it did five? 

David H. Hartman

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #141 on: May 17, 2017, 22:24:25 »
You think that if my camera takes 10 frames per second I have done twice as much photography as if it did five?

You've lost me again. I found the greater DR of my D300s a great relief compared to my D2H. So much so that I finally sold my D2H for $185.00 (USD). I had more respect for the D2H than to use it as a door stop but not enough to use it as a camera.

Dave
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bclaff

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #142 on: May 17, 2017, 22:30:55 »
You think that if my camera takes 10 frames per second I have done twice as much photography as if it did five?
I think that there are situations (sport, some wildlife, etc.) where you're more likely to miss your shot if you have insufficient Frames Per Second (FPS).
Do we take these photographers to task for considering FPS in choosing their gear?
Some people have a need for high dynamic range. Why is there a problem with that?

David H. Hartman

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #143 on: May 17, 2017, 23:29:54 »
I don't think there is a problem.

Dave Hartman

Except that I don't have both, damn it!

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There are other problems in my life...

As I need a Nikon D820H and Nikon D820X: I need a '69 Boss 429 Mustang for burnouts and a '69 Boss 302 Mustang for the road course. This is important!

Dave Hartman
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simsurace

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #144 on: May 18, 2017, 00:02:47 »
Then why are we talking about it?  Why would a photographer be interested in the dynamic range of different cameras if dynamic range does not have some connection with better photographs?

The reason we are talking about it here is because I opened this thread.
I opened this thread after seeing some disagreements, questions, and uncertainties expressed in another thread.
The reason I opened the thread was that there is controversy about what I considered more or less well-established concepts that originate from ideas that are fairly standard in science and engineering.
Making models to try and simplify a complicated situation for other people to facilitate understanding is a normal process, as well as checking the model against experimental data.
That there is so much resistance here and elsewhere makes this an interesting topic for me. There must be reasons for the controversy. One of them is that many people always conflate technical discussions with art, and demand that any discussion has a net result in terms of artistic growth. You don't get that from this discussion. You might walk away with a better sense of how to evaluate your tools.

Among people that are not well versed in the science behind photography, you also see a lot of misconceptions about what different systems or formats can do for you. There is a lot of wishful thinking and sometimes even 'magic' being invoked. Some people like it that way, preferring to keep a sense of mystery to their photographic process, but for others, getting a better understanding of the way images are recorded has some interest. This is a reason people might take an interest in 'equivalence' or other stuff that we discuss here, because it is an attempt (an imperfect one, but I challenge anyone to come up with one that is as comprehensive and superior) to give a simple description of what might happen in an imaging chain that does not matter*, from a measurement point of view, and by extension, for humans.

*(effects that cancel each other out, resulting in an equivalent image)

Of course there is some connection with photography, but that connection is up to the individual photographer to establish. Some find such discussions crucial and very important for their photography, others seek subtler forms of expression where image quality is secondary.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #145 on: May 18, 2017, 00:05:28 »
"Bjørn, With your very significant training in science and it's methods this discussion must be trying."

Not at all. Entertaining; no. There is genuine disagreement present, for example about theory applicability or the assumptions invoked, which is nothing unheard of in scientific circles, but perhaps less easy to deal with on a 'net forum.

I have many decades of practical (and scientific) photography experience without ever once thinking in the direction of the suggested theory. I have used all kinds of photographic tools and formats, from the tiniest imaginable to 8x10" and never needing such concepts. One simply does not take the "equivalent" picture with the different gear, it's that simple. A knowledgeable photographer knows the limitations and constraints of her or his tools, and works accordingly; sometimes the perceived limits are transgressed but then mainly for artistic reasons, which also is an integrated part of photography although less capable of being put into a theoretical framework.

simsurace

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #146 on: May 18, 2017, 00:54:34 »
"Bjørn, With your very significant training in science and it's methods this discussion must be trying."

Not at all. Entertaining; no. There is genuine disagreement present, for example about theory applicability or the assumptions invoked, which is nothing unheard of in scientific circles, but perhaps less easy to deal with on a 'net forum.

I have many decades of practical (and scientific) photography experience without ever once thinking in the direction of the suggested theory. I have used all kinds of photographic tools and formats, from the tiniest imaginable to 8x10" and never needing such concepts. One simply does not take the "equivalent" picture with the different gear, it's that simple. A knowledgeable photographer knows the limitations and constraints of her or his tools, and works accordingly; sometimes the perceived limits are transgressed but then mainly for artistic reasons, which also is an integrated part of photography although less capable of being put into a theoretical framework.

You are basically saying that because you have so much experience, the concept is redundant.
But what if one does not have that background? Does a photographer today have to start with 8x10" and film to get proficient?
Is there a way to compress all that information that you gathered in decades about what to expect from which format, into something that can be learned in a few hours?
Is it so complicated that you need a lifetime of learning, or is it fairly straightforward such that you can quickly learn it, and then focus on other (more important) stuff?
Are there things that were relevant in the analog era, but are no longer relevant today, and therefore don't have to be dragged along?

It is precisely because most photographers from the digital age do not have the background you have, that new concepts are needed.
Forgetting all previous baggage can sometimes enable a new look at the situation and newer, simpler descriptions.

Also, the fact that today most images are viewed on digital screens has led to new problems.
One of them is that people look at images at 100% and wonder about noise.
Another is that some people think that all 10MP images (to give an example) are the same, irrespective of the size of the sensor (you sometimes see this among laypeople).
A digital image has lost its physical dimension, it's just a bunch of pixels, which can lead to the situation that secondary magnification is forgotten about.
Why would you then not expect the same image quality from a 10MP smartphone sensor vs. a 10MP DSLR on a big print?
This is very different from holding a piece of negative and putting it on the enlarger, thinking about which enlarger lens to use, in which case you are acutely aware of the process that leads to the final result.
New processes require new theoretical concepts, because the old way of doing things will soon be completely forgotten.

For me, the concepts from the analog era are not very natural because I did not grow up using them, even though I can understand them.
I understand that people had to spend hours in the darkroom for what can be achieved today by a few clicks.
At the same time, I do not believe that I have to always think in terms of the old process. I can invent new concept that more compactly describe what I need to know in order to know what I have to do to reach a certain goal.
I tend to think in terms of the digital signal processing and try to simplify the imaging chain to a point where things that do not matter, do not show up in the analysis. This is what is natural to me and what I'm spending my whole working day with anyway. So an assumption that introduces invariance (or reduces degrees of freedom, as you put it) is actually something I embrace, because it makes my life simpler and allows me to focus on the other variables.
The fact that the entire development of digital systems was built upon ideas from information theory suggests that those same ideas should also facilitate a simpler understanding of digital systems, even though the whole thing could probably also be analysed using the concepts from the analog era.
If I know how to get roughly the same image from two formats (an equivalent one), I know by extension how to take a different photograph, or I can predict how the photographs will differ before taking them.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #147 on: May 18, 2017, 01:04:38 »
Please refrain from personalised arguments and questioning somebody's qualification or insight.  This direction is not helpful at all. If continued it can only lead to locking down the thread because violations of NG Guidelines.


simsurace

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #148 on: May 18, 2017, 01:12:31 »
I did not question your qualifications at all.
If anything, I said that your qualifications are too great to be assumed 'standard', and not representative of a generation of photographers that only knows the analog process from second-hand accounts.
Feel free to lock down anything you want, it does not matter to me.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Discussion of 'Equivalence'
« Reply #149 on: May 18, 2017, 01:16:13 »
I have no immediate need. Exchange of information has the potential of being useful.