"FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony

[stenrasmussen]

So it has happened. Sony has "concoured" Nikon in the "full-frame" marked in th US.
Wonder if the mirrorless concept plays a role..?
https://alphauniverse.com/stories/sony-overtakes--2-position-in-u-s--full-frame-interchangeable-lens-camera-market/

[armando_m]

I saw the news, is is all over the internet

Of course mirrorless plays a roll , that along with a full frame sensor, adapters and focus peaking allowing a fairly easy use of what seems any lens on the A7s

In the mean time Nikon releases a D7500 with some missing features from the lower model apparently to prevent cannibalizing sales from the the D500 , a strategy that is obviously working wonders for the competition

I get a feel engineering in Nikon is not allowed to do what they truly want.

[Tristin]

Well, we can hope that this pushes Nikon closer towards innovation instead of refinement as we have had for a while now.  More importantly, I hope Nikon reconsiders some of it's stances in favor of what people want that the Sony mirrorless FF offers.  If Nikon keeps the OVF, which I hope they do, they simply must develop a good hybrid VF.  The A7's lust factor for many is the manual lens support, namely features such as focus magnification, peaking, etc.  Please let us not get into focus screens/technique/etc. and face the fact that an A7 is an easier camera to nail focus with our beloved fast Nikkors, generally speaking.  Of course, catering to manual lens support has not at all been anywhere close to Nikon's plan.  Foolishly, in my opinion.  Instead of seeing the vast used MF Nikkor market as some sort of competitor to their modern lens catalog, they should use it as a platform.

Nikon know people want higher and higher performance. 
Nikon does not know that manual lenses are gaining popularity and are stil a Nikon asset.

If I had the power, Nikon would release a DF-esque FF with a large hybrid VF, modular grip and run a campaign on it's prowess using both cutting edge *and* classic lenses.  Let users know that even if they are eyeing used manual lenses, Nikon is the best camera for the job.  Everyone I've known who got into DSLRs starts this way.  Nikon needs to be there when they decide to fork out for a modern marvel lens. 

Or Sony will, like they are. 

"Want to buy a $3k body and a $100 old prime off ebay to start?  Sure!  When you decide to update, we have some G Master lenses for you."

[Ilkka Nissilä]

Sony has "concoured" Nikon in the "full-frame" marked in th US.

Two months, one single format, one single country. Some statistics, huh. A much more useful statistic would be to look at total sales of all interchangeable lens cameras in 2016 (or the past 12 months) in all countries combined.

Many Nikon FX users are waiting for the updates to D610, D750, D810 and perhaps Df. Now that they have seen what is in the D500/D5 there is probably few who want to buy another Multi-CAM 3500 camera if it is not for budget reasons.

[Ilkka Nissilä]

Neither camera (D500 or D7500) is full frame, they're both DX, so their successes or failures would not be seen in the statistics quoted in the article (which concerned only full frame sales). And since the D7500 was announced in April, its features cannot have influenced full frame buyers in January or Feburary of the same year, unless buyers are clairvoyant. In any case neither Canon nor Sony support old lenses with full functionality, either, and neither of them have given dual card slots in the D7500's price class so it may well have been Canon and Sony that Nikon is imitating in the D7500 design. Nikon is just copying successful brands.

[bjornthun]

Sony support all autofocus Minolta/Sony A-mount (with Sony adapters LA-EA1/2/3/4) and E-mount lenses with AF as well as metering and all exposure modes on Sony mirrorless. Minolta MD as well as Minolta M mount lenses can be used via third party adapters and you get A and M exposure modes as well as full metering. Yes, Minolta made some lenses with Leica M mount! (Does Nikon a have full frame digital camera supporting their own L39 or S mount lenses? )

Zeiss, Voigtländer (Cosina) and Tokina make make manual focus lenses with modern optics and classical handling as well as electronic integration. A total of eleven native E mount full frame manual focus lenses with CPUs have been introduced/announced (8/3).

Maybe Sony's excellent support for legacy glass as well as modern MF and AF glass combine to earn them the number two position in the US. Sony A7/II sure are the best manual focus cameras I've ever had, making them as fun as an old Olympus OM-1 albeit very diferent, but just as small.

[tommiejeep]

For the period covered, Sony had big discounts in the US market so a bit misleading.   I'm pretty heavily invested in the Sony system but I just cannot use for a large percentage of what I shoot.  Still too many places where it falls short.  Today I am shooting a soccer tournament and will be using D3S and D500.   I am taking the a7rii with the FE 24-70 f4 for team photos.   My, now dead , D750 was a much better all rounder than the a7rii.   I have events coming up which cannot be shot, by me, with the Sonys.  For those requiring high resolution, for static targets, the Sonys are very good and due to size/weight, great for Air Travel.  I am in the process of culling my Sony system to buy a Leica 135mm f3.4.

From what I see on the Net , many Sony fanboys are Techies with cash.   I have no interest in D7500 but do hope it sells well.

 

[arthurking83]

Two months, one single format, one single country. Some statistics, huh. ....

Not only that, but the fact that the unseating is measured by dollar value, not unit sales!

I don't know the dollar value of each unit per each customer, but if Sony are selling fewer units at the higher dollar value, then of course there is the situation that their dollar sales over the period will be greater.

What's more interesting is how many individual units are being sold.

[MFloyd]

Sony makes good sensors. They still have to learn to make a good camera. And, for the time being, a hybrid camera does not stand for progress.

[Jack Dahlgren]

If I had the power, Nikon would release a DF-esque FF with a large hybrid VF, modular grip and run a campaign on it's prowess using both cutting edge *and* classic lenses.  Let users know that even if they are eyeing used manual lenses, Nikon is the best camera for the job.  Everyone I've known who got into DSLRs starts this way.  Nikon needs to be there when they decide to fork out for a modern marvel lens. 

I have a Df but if a Ds came out I'd probably buy it.

[MILLIREHM]

Nikon needs a better management
and then a better support
don't think its the engineers

[Daniel Bliss]

There's a question as to whether Sony's figures even included all US retailers -- it's data tracking of smaller dealers they were using and it's not clear if B&H, Adorama and Amazon among others were in there -- and they were running big promotions during the January February period they used for the figures.  Take the whole first quarter from all dealers and it won't be close.

However, the trend for Nikon is worrying. 

[Peter Forsell]

... However, the trend for Nikon is worrying.

Nikon has designed some nice "me too" products over the last few years, but the last big bang was D800 some 5 years ago. And on top of that they have had several manufacturing and quality control issues, and to add insult to injury, they have managed to handle those very poorly causing too much unnecessary customer anger. I give the engineers full A, but the marketing, QC and aftermarket people get only a C-.

I would have bought a D4X if there was one. The next big thing I'd be interested in would be a D5X. What are the odds of that? But if Nikon did a 80 megapixel D5X that would rise some public interest to the whole product line. And follow it 6 months later with a 64 mpix D820 to reap the benefits of volume sales.

As it is now... yawn. I mean, nice products sure, but I'm settled for the next decade with D4S, D3X and D3S. I am happy to sit on top of my wallet, if nothing exciting does not pop out.

[stenrasmussen]

No matter how one argues (yes...) Sony has moved upwards and forwards in a manner Nikon ought to study closer and learn from...and move accordingly. They haven't.

[Ilkka Nissilä]

I just tested again the Sony A7II EVF was disgusted by it. The image shows a lot of artifacts instead of just the subject; the edges have jaggies which move about, it's like a Frankenstein version of a viewfinder. Until Sony brings back their excellent optical viewfinders seen in their old  DSLRs, there is no money going to their camera division from me.

Nikon's 2016 products including the D5, the superb 105/1.4, and the 70-200/2.8E earn top grade from me. Especially the D5's outstanding AF has increased my percentage of keepers with fast primes considerably (in some conditions, from 30% in focus at f/1.4 with Advanced Multi-CAM 3500 to about 90-95% with the D5). In low light the ability to focus even in light requiring 1/125s, f/2.8, ISO 51200 was just witnessed yesterday when I was photographing the darker parts of a play. I would say Multi-CAM 20k is the most signicant technical innovation in the history of Nikon AF.

In particular the 105/1,4 has not ceased to amaze me with its consistently high image quality and remarkably beautiful transition from sharp to unsharp regions. I am actually really surprised why Nikon is seemingly suffering commercially at the same time these products hit the market. 

My experience with Nikon QC is quite good; only cameras I had trouble with were the D7000 and D800 (AF). I think it is understandable given that the resolution of the sensor increased rapidly at that time and AF wasn't able to keep up. However, they have really improved AF greatly since. Nikon's service in Finland has been outstanding and they have gone out of their way to provide good service, in many cases doing things free outside of any warranty period obligation. I understand that not every region benefits from such service and this is unfortunate.

By contrast my experience with Sony service (VAIO laptop) is that they take no responsibility of a product which did not work correctly.

A D4X or D5X has the problem that it would likely have similar features to D810 but at twice the cost. Thus it is commerciably viable only if the D810 line is discontinued or crippled. I think the D810 is a great product in itself and I add the vertical grip when needed. I use the D5 but would not buy a D5X.