Author Topic: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony  (Read 12661 times)

bjornthun

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2017, 13:29:46 »
Nikon should improve manual focusing on both the body and lens side. The bodies should have interchangeable focusing screens optimized for different aperture ranges, with and without manual focus aids and the screen position should be accurate. On the lens side, many "affordable" Nikon lenses have poor manual focus rings and I don't believe this has to be so at all. The 35/1.4, 58/1.4, 85/1.4, 105/1.4, and 200/2 I find to have fine manual focus rings, but e.g. 20/1.8 not so much. I am quite puzzled why they put the ring in there at all if its use has to be so difficult. If Nikon do not offer really good video/live view AF, they should at least work on the manual focus of the lenses so that they can be used reliably.

My experience is that with FX and Katz Eye focusing screen for the D700, I had no issue focusing the 28/2 ZF for example, manually, even wide open. Focusing angle lenses is one of the more challenging tasks in DSLR use, in my experience. I think it can be done a lot better than it is done by Nikon today.

For me focusing manually on a A7R II EVF didn't result in correctly focused shots when testing it with a 135/2 Apo Sonnar. I wasn't even able to get it close and was puzzled by the results. I cannot zoom in to focus when hand holding to photograph a person as I need to be able to monitor the overall composition and see the image as a whole without distractions. I am able to get correctly focused shots using my Nikons using the focus confirmation dot; with that lens on the D8x0 it works well.
The 10x magnifier definitely is for static subjects, good point. E.g. landscape, architecture and macro.

The D700 was so to speak the last OVF DSLR that worked well for me. I guess a 12mp FX sensor isn't too taxing on focusing ability. The D800 was a disaster for me.

Good mechanics cost. The Nikon 14-24/2.8 has nice MF feel, the Nikon 28/1.8 not so much, same as the 20/1.8, I guess. Depending on the implementation, focus by wire could solve it for cheaper lenses. The focus ring would need to have no acceleration and only a linear response to be good. The lowly Sony 50/1.8 FE has a much better focus feel (Ai like) than the expensive Sony/Zeiss 55/1.8 FE. :o

CS

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2017, 15:44:02 »
Two months, one single format, one single country. Some statistics, huh. A much more useful statistic would be to look at total sales of all interchangeable lens cameras in 2016 (or the past 12 months) in all countries combined.

Many Nikon FX users are waiting for the updates to D610, D750, D810 and perhaps Df. Now that they have seen what is in the D500/D5 there is probably few who want to buy another Multi-CAM 3500 camera if it is not for budget reasons.

Yeah but, "Many Nikon users" are always waiting for something new, the D500 is a good example of that. A lot of the less faithful bought outside of the Nikon offerings when there appeared to be no D300 replacement coming. I think that Nikon's success or failure is less about what Sony does and more about what Nikon does.

Nikon reminds me of a world class race horse with the mounted jockey holding it back from pacing in front of the competition.
Carl

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2017, 17:58:38 »
Nikon reminds me of a world class race horse with the mounted jockey holding it back from pacing in front of the competition.

I don't think Nikon is holding back.

There can be reasons why it might make sense not to make a camera like the D500; for example, along with a high end DX camera, the question of high end DX lenses pops up again. To satisfy all users, some additional DX high end wide angle primes would be needed, and a modern revision of the 17-55/2.8, with nano coating, perhaps VR etc. To simplify the product lineup Nikon may not have been eager to make the D500; only when Canon forced them to with the introduction of the 7D Mark II, did it seem that the project was put back on the agenda. The 7D Mark II itself took many years to make; Canon wasn't in any hurry, either. FX only would make the product lineup simpler in some way. But some users are very enthusiastic about DX and many people prefer it for budget reasons as well as the obvious telephoto action photography application. There are advantages to DX and disadvantages.  For Nikon it would have been simpler to have one format for the high end, in some ways.

Along with making the D500, in my opinion, comes the responsibility to fullfill any lens needs that its users may have. E.g., wide angle primes with fast maximum aperture and no extra flare or ghosting due to oversize FX coverage. In my opinion this should be par for the course even without the D500. Many D7x00 users use it for family photography indoors and can use fast lenses. Today that means 11-16/2.8 Tokina and 18-35/1.8 Sigma, basically.

So, if Nikon makes DX and FX mirrorless cameras, then they would have five lens lineups to maintain (CX, two DX, two FX). Consolidating the product line makes perfect sense from a practical point of view, but of course users should be consulted as well.

armando_m

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2017, 19:32:17 »
I wouldn't mind if they make  an F mount mirrorless and avoid another line of lenses, sensor size may be either DX / FX with capability to meter with manual lenses
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CS

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2017, 07:02:50 »
I don't think Nikon is holding back.

There can be reasons why it might make sense not to make a camera like the D500; for example, along with a high end DX camera, the question of high end DX lenses pops up again. To satisfy all users, some additional DX high end wide angle primes would be needed, and a modern revision of the 17-55/2.8, with nano coating, perhaps VR etc. To simplify the product lineup Nikon may not have been eager to make the D500; only when Canon forced them to with the introduction of the 7D Mark II, did it seem that the project was put back on the agenda. The 7D Mark II itself took many years to make; Canon wasn't in any hurry, either. FX only would make the product lineup simpler in some way. But some users are very enthusiastic about DX and many people prefer it for budget reasons as well as the obvious telephoto action photography application. There are advantages to DX and disadvantages.  For Nikon it would have been simpler to have one format for the high end, in some ways.

Along with making the D500, in my opinion, comes the responsibility to fullfill any lens needs that its users may have. E.g., wide angle primes with fast maximum aperture and no extra flare or ghosting due to oversize FX coverage. In my opinion this should be par for the course even without the D500. Many D7x00 users use it for family photography indoors and can use fast lenses. Today that means 11-16/2.8 Tokina and 18-35/1.8 Sigma, basically.

So, if Nikon makes DX and FX mirrorless cameras, then they would have five lens lineups to maintain (CX, two DX, two FX). Consolidating the product line makes perfect sense from a practical point of view, but of course users should be consulted as well.

Of course they're holding back. Where are the DX lenses to fill out the DX user photographer's needs. Why did it take them so long to release a D300 replacement?

Where is the universally accepted Nikon software? Why is SnapBridge a joke? Why are cell phones grabbing camera company market share?

Bean counters are running the entire Nikon show, IMO. Of course you may have an entirely different take on things. If so, go for it, I am certainly no expert. 

Please don't misunderstand, I would love to see Nikon thrive but I don't think they are doing that.
Carl

David H. Hartman

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2017, 08:48:47 »
I have a bad taste in my mouth from Sony defects from about 1985 to 1992. Example: a Sony 707 ESD CD player. I the D/A converter failed and I waited (13) Thirteen months for the repair. Two XBR TV monitors with cold solder joints plus a friend had another he repaired. Cold solder joint in an RCA jack in a Sony 508 ESD CD player. I fixed that one myself. XBR and ESD were their top of the line in each category.

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bjornthun

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2017, 13:52:40 »
I have a bad taste in my mouth from Sony defects from about 1985 to 1992. Example: a Sony 707 ESD CD player. I the D/A converter failed and I waited (13) Thirteen months for the repair. Two XBR TV monitors with cold solder joints plus a friend had another he repaired. Cold solder joint in an RCA jack in a Sony 508 ESD CD player. I fixed that one myself. XBR and ESD were their top of the line in each category.

Dave Hartman
It took Nikon quite some time to even acknowledge the D600 oil splatter issue and the D800 left side AF issue.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2017, 14:39:27 »
Bad service is not a competition. Sometimes one has a difficult to diagnose and correct problem and then it takes time to find a solution. I am sure that all companies that stay in business for decades or more have had some problems in their history. I've had nothing but the best experiences with Nikon service. I was expecting there would probably be problems with manufacturing after the 2011 earthquake, tsunami and flooding and my only surprise is that Nikon managed to get through, even if stumbling a bit. I try to give them a bit of latitude as perfection is difficult to reach and companies are made of human beings. It helps if one can try to stay focused on the photographic goals that one has rather than the gear.

John Geerts

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2017, 14:50:17 »
It helps if one can try to stay focused on the photographic goals that one has rather than the gear.
Exactly.

Harald

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2017, 16:28:43 »
Hi,

here in germany sony has a very bad service regarding all(!) sectors like tv, hifi and photo regarding my own experience as reseller. Asking a guy who is selling sony cameras: Half a year after release of a new camera they can not offer any spare parts and are changing the damaged camera to a newer model. Bad if the customer bought 50 of them to have exactly the same camera everywhere so that every employee can use them. They now use Nikon. ;) Bad service is a real problem! I have to handle such problems and Sony is here in germany the looser on this sector. The only reason why i will never buy a Sony A7. ;)

Harald
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CS

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2017, 17:29:05 »
Hi,

here in germany sony has a very bad service regarding all(!) sectors like tv, hifi and photo regarding my own experience as reseller. Asking a guy who is selling sony cameras: Half a year after release of a new camera they can not offer any spare parts and are changing the damaged camera to a newer model. Bad if the customer bought 50 of them to have exactly the same camera everywhere so that every employee can use them. They now use Nikon. ;) Bad service is a real problem! I have to handle such problems and Sony is here in germany the looser on this sector. The only reason why i will never buy a Sony A7. ;)

Harald

Here in the USA Nikon's service reputation is less than stellar. There are many people that won't buy Nikon refurbished gear because they have had too many problems with that gear. One would think that Nikon refurbished gear would be reliable, but often it is not. Worse, Nikon won't sell some parts to third party repair facilities, leaving gear owners little choice. If your camera or lens wasn't purchased in the USA Nikon USA will not service it. Nikon's customers are not the enemy.

Not to start a flame war here, but compare Nikon's service reputation with Apple's, and you will see what customer service is all about.
Carl

Jakov Minić

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2017, 17:33:44 »
It helps if one can try to stay focused on the photographic goals that one has rather than the gear.

Exactly, again :)
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CS

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2017, 17:59:49 »
It helps if one can try to stay focused on the photographic goals that one has rather than the gear.

While I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, you are known to buy the newest models yourself.

Sony is innovating and that is getting attention. That should not surprise anyone. 
Carl

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2017, 18:31:46 »
Apple takes considerable profit from the sales of each phone so they ought to be able to provide great service. However, that hasn't been my experience. My iPhone 6's camera stopped focusing in a few months after purchase. Repair was not done, instead they charged me 370€ for a replacement. I had insurance but it took quite a lot of fighting to get the repair covered. Before, my iPad 2 stopped being usable over time as updates to the software made it so slow it was no longer was usable. In my opinion this qualifies as extraordinarily poor service.

ArendV

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Re: "FX" format: Nikon pushed down by Sony
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2017, 18:34:00 »
Sony certainly keeps on pushing the mirrorless bar with the just announced high-end A9
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