Author Topic: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.  (Read 22426 times)

David H. Hartman

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2016, 08:48:26 »
[As pointed out by Rolland Vink the 400/5.6 P-C and ED K and AI all have one ED element. To collaborate I found a reference to "fluorocrown ED glass" in this article on the 300/2.0 ED-IF AIS. ...

Link will be added soon.]

EB,

The 400/5.6 Nikkor-P*C may have one ED and one FL element. As I recall from the Nikon, Nikkormat Handbook it did not carry the ED moniker or the gold ring. I have a scan of a Nikon leaflet on the lens. I own a native AI version. I'll check this when I can. I'm not at home at this time.

Dave Hartman

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I would keep both aperture rings. I'd store the original with care.

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The PK-11 and PK-11a can have the meter coupling removed allowing use with pre-AI as well as AF-S Nikkor lenses. So modified it offers auto-aperture but not auto indexing like a short M2 tube.
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Roland Vink

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2016, 09:11:01 »
I see this repeated over and over again. And I repeat again, the optics of the 400/5.6 P-C are the same as the NIKKOR*ED 400/5.6 (K and AI versions), with one ED element at the front. The P-C version lacks the "ED" designation simply because they hadn't thought of the term yet. Early Nikon literature does mention a new type of glass with Fluorite-like properties, which is probably the source of confusion.

This lens was originally presented at photokina in 1970 as a Nikkor-P (no C), but did not make it to market until 1973. I suspect the prototype used ED glass from Schott, like the Nikkor-H 300/2.8 (see http://www.nikkor.com/story/0011/). Production may have been delayed until Nikon could produce their own ED glass.

Erik Lund

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2016, 09:29:07 »
Thanks Roland! Some things can't be repeated enough :)
Erik Lund

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2016, 12:08:50 »
My 400/5.6 PC is within 30 units (serial number) from Eb's lens :D

An excellent performer with the typical pleasantly 'rounded' ED colours from the early generation of ED optics. The small amount of lateral CA seen on a digital camera is easily removed in the RAW converter.

David H. Hartman

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2016, 12:22:28 »
Here are a couple of sheets on the 400/5.6 P-C and AI...

Dave
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2016, 12:43:00 »
Roland's explanation still holds. Same content, but new labelling of the special glass as 'ED' and with it, the introduction of the 'golden ring' to signify the claimed superiority of ED glass.

I have used both versions and saw absolutely no difference in image quality between them. My current 400/5.6 is the P.C.

Erik Lund

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2016, 12:57:02 »
David, Thanks for the nice vintage product sheet! Beautiful :)
Erik Lund

David H. Hartman

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2016, 13:04:22 »
"Its use of fluorite crystal and special rare-earth glass helps correct aberrations, especially chromatic ones." --first page above

Is this statement incorrect? Is it one more of Nikon's errors in such publications or am I reading it wrong? As I read it I read two elements as a minimum. Is there a better source of information on these models?

Dave
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2016, 14:17:16 »
The extra-low spectral dispersion of ED glass compares to fluorite, but ED is more robust in the production.

'ED' is Nikon's moniker for this kind of glass, first seen early '70s. Fluorite is of course strictly not glass at all.

As the designs are identical (5/3) the discrepancy in description can be ascribed the nomenclature not the construction of the optics.

Roland Vink

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2016, 20:36:25 »
"Its use of fluorite crystal and special rare-earth glass helps correct aberrations, especially chromatic ones." --first page above

Is this statement incorrect? Is it one more of Nikon's errors in such publications or am I reading it wrong? As I read it I read two elements as a minimum. Is there a better source of information on these models?
To the best of my knowledge (which is not perfect), Nikon chose not to use fluorite elements in their telephoto lenses since Fluorite is relatively soft, cracks more easily when subject to shocks, and is more affected by moisture and heat. Nikon was the producer of professional quality lenses, and must have felt that fluorite was too delicate for heavy use (Canon obviously chose a different path). Nikon instead developed ED glass which has much better mechanical qualities - hard enough to be used on the front element, stronger and less subject to moisture and heat. ED glass is not quite as good optically as fluorite glass, but the lens designer had greater freedom on where the ED glass could be used. This is the trade-off they made, their lenses may have been more robust than those from Canon, but Canon's may have been better corrected (although their coatings from that period were poor).

I think ED glass does use fluorite in the mix (?) along with other glasses which improves the mechanical properties. So maybe the quote "use of fluorite crystal and special rare-earth glass ..." is correct, but applies to the same ED element.

Until powerful computers became available in the 1970s, Nikon was not in the habit of redesigning the same lens every few years - ray tracing was still largely manual in those days so designing a lens was a slow and expensive task. From that point of view it seems likely the NIKKOR-P-C and K 400/5.6 are the same optically since they are only a few years apart. On the other hand, they would "tweak" existing designs to improve performance, so it is possible the design changed slightly.

One thing I just noticed, on the lens diagram at the top for the NIKKOR-P-C Auto, the third element behind the front cemented double, is a meniscus lens - the rear surface curves inwards. On the diagram of the AI lens, the rear surface of the third element curves outwards. I'm not sure how much we can trust these diagrams, or the marketing descriptions, but it offer the possibility that they are a little different.

We just have to hope that this lens is subject to one of the 1001 night articles soon...

Roland Vink

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2016, 20:50:16 »
Current Ebay search yields:
#13, #16 - 15mm f/5.6
#45 - 135mm f/3.5
#51 - 200mm f/4 Q
#55 - 400mm f/5.6
#65, #66, #68 - 43-86mm f/3.5
#73, #74 - 80-200mm f/4.5
#82 - 85-250mm f/4
I surmise these are not so common lenses, except the 135mm, perhaps?  But, as you say, Nikon likely did not produce enough conversion kits.  It is far better business model to eventually encourage acquisition of new lenses.

edit:  another just popped up, #87, #88 - 50-300 f/4.5

The 135 in question is the K 135/3.5, which was produced for a relatively short time, fewer than 25,000 lenses made. Most of the others are zooms or ultra-wide lenses. Wide lenses need to be assembled with great precision, and are made with shims to ensure infinity focus is correct - just a small difference can throw focus out a long way. Zooms run on cams which are less precise than focus helixes, so they are also fitted to shims to adjust infinity focus. These shims meant that some lenses were slightly longer than others, and so Nikon made two or three AI kits for each lens with different height to compensate. So, for example, a lens with a thick shim should be fitted with the higher (wider) AI kit to compensate. In practice it rarely makes any difference, but in rare cases, fitting the narrow AI kit to a lens with a thick shim might mean the AI cam fails to engage with the AI follower on the camera, or a wide AI ring on a lens with a thin shim may cause the AI ring to jam on the camera.

Since some lenses had multiple AI conversion kits, more kits were made than needed, which means that new kits are still floating around today. Other lenses which only had one AI kit, fewer kits were made so they were used up long ago.

David H. Hartman

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2016, 20:51:46 »
I think ED glass does use fluorite in the mix (?) along with other glasses which improves the mechanical properties. So maybe the quote "use of fluorite crystal and special rare-earth glass ..." is correct, but applies to the same ED element.

This reading makes sense to me. Is it known that there is only one ED element on the AI version? Anyway I'll consider the original 400/5.6 Nikkor-P*C to be an ED lens without an FL element from here on and the K and AI the same was well.

Dave Hartman

I don't know the origin of the first page. I'll find the origin of the second page as I'm quite sure I scanned the second page.
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Roland Vink

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2016, 21:18:18 »
I'm fairly sure (but not absolutely sure) that the original 400/5.6 P-C has only one ED element. The AI 400/5.6 IF-ED also has only one element (2nd):

The NIKKOR-H 300mm f/2.8 from the same period has two ED elements, which is not surprising since it is a faster lens, see http://www.nikkor.com/img/story/0011/

The first scan looks like it is from the lens instruction sheet.

The second page is from the 1979 Nikon Dealer Sales Manual - it comes in a blue binder with separate booklets for each camera model (F2, FE, FM ...), accessories, and a big one with all the lenses. I have one of these.


ColinM

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2016, 01:09:37 »
It would be nice to have the choice of a 400mm f5.6 AF lens nowadays.
PF or even 'traditional, would be fine.....

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Vintage Gear Surprise, pre AI.
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2016, 02:00:17 »
300 PF + TC14E.3 bring you pretty close.