NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Eb on December 13, 2016, 01:29:31
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It is ironic that someone who unceremoniously has dumped his vintage gear both acquired and used in the 60 - 70's, should have this "treasure trove" come his way. In fairness, my old gear was dumped when cash was decisevely more important than nostalgia. But here we have nostalgia! All this largess is due to a beneficient uncle who thought I might enjoy trying film again! We have, Nikon F, FTN, circa 1968-69, micro Nikkor-P-C 55mm, f/3.5 complete with M2 adapter and HS-4 hood, (I'd say mint condition,) a Nikkor-P-C 105mm, f/2.5 and and the only AI lens, Zoom-Nikkor 35-105, f/3.5-4.5. Finally, what I prize the most, an absolutely mint Nikkor-P-C 400mm, f/5.6. This lens was acquired in Japan, directly, and used only once.
Today, right out of the gate, I was lucky and located a factory conversion kit #55 for the 400mm!!! I fear my luck will not persist in locating the #63 kit (micro 55mm) and #39 kit (105mm.) However, the M2 will mount on a modern camera and I can use the micro with that anyways. The 105mm will have limited use for now. I do not want to cut into the lens ring for the "home made" adaptation and would rather sit, wait and see.
I have to laugh since my aunt (she is wiser because only a couple weeks older than I) asked what I would do with that "heavy thing" - meaning the FTN. My reflexive response was, "makes a great doorstop!" ;D
I remember, in photography school, around 1971, I was a little jealous of my well heeled fellow students who sported this expensive state of the art Nikon gear. I certainly did not shoot Nikon then! Look what I missed and now so much fun to play with and fabulous historic fabrication to admire. I know the camera has very little monetary value, but its the thoughts that count! :)
BTW, I'm appreciative to still be a member of NikonGear, but, alas, my photography has suffered after a year of avoidance due to bad arthritis in neck and wrists. Hence, in the timeliness of sharing this gift, I wish everyone the best for Christmas!
(http://www.pbase.com/emueller/image/164677463/original.jpg)
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Hi Eb, the 400 P-C is a great find, very glad you were able to locate the AI ring for it (keep the original pre-AI ring, there may be a collector who wants a pristine ring to restore another lens)
I doubt you will find original AI conversion rings for the 55 micro or 105 P-C, I've never seen them in many years of collecting and researching old Nikon lenses. Enjoy them as they are. If you need AI lenses, it will be just as simple to pick up AI versions of the same lenses (they have the same optics)
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Hi Eb, the 400 P-C is a great find, very glad you were able to locate the AI ring for it (keep the original pre-AI ring, there may be a collector who wants a pristine ring to restore another lens)
I doubt you will find original AI conversion rings for the 55 micro or 105 P-C, I've never seen them in many years of collecting and researching old Nikon lenses. Enjoy them as they are. If you need AI lenses, it will be just as simple to pick up AI versions of the same lenses (they have the same optics)
Thanks for the sage advice, Roland. Your opinion is exactly in line with my thoughts on vintage equipment. It is what it is and desirable or beautiful for that. There are lots of 105mm AI lenses around, if I were inclined to go for one!
Is it possible that I was lucky with finding the 400 P-C conversion kit because this lens is fairly rare in it's pre-AI configuration - hence, lower demand for the kit?
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Great post.
I remember the FTN fondly, as it was my first exposure to Nikon in 1978 (a good friend had one). That prompted me to save and buy an FE in 1979 (still have it).
I hope you can find some relief from your arthritis and enjoy your vintage gear.
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Is it possible that I was lucky with finding the 400 P-C conversion kit because this lens is fairly rare in it's pre-AI configuration - hence, lower demand for the kit?
You are right that pre-AI 400/5.6 is rare, with a little over 1400 units in the "P-C" version and about 1200 in the "K" version (plus less than 900 in native AI mount). Interestingly both the P-C and K versions accept the same AI conversion ring, #55, which hints at similar internal mechanics, in spite of the different outer appearance.
I'm not sure why AI conversion rings for this lens are still available, while others were used up long ago. It may be that Nikon over-produced AI rings for this lens, which would be strange because they should know how many lenses they built! Maybe many owners simply did not bother to convert their lens to AI, continuing to use them on their pre-Ai camera or switching to the AI IF-ED version, so that many AI conversion rings were left unused.
For other more popular lenses like the 105/2.5, I suspect Nikon did not make enough AI conversion rings for every lens they made, assuming that many owners would not convert their lens, or would eventually buy a new AI lens. The result is that AI rings for these lenses were eventually used up.
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For other more popular lenses like the 105/2.5, I suspect Nikon did not make enough AI conversion rings for every lens they made, assuming that many owners would not convert their lens, or would eventually buy a new AI lens. The result is that AI rings for these lenses were eventually used up.
Current Ebay search yields:
#13, #16 - 15mm f/5.6
#45 - 135mm f/3.5
#51 - 200mm f/4 Q
#55 - 400mm f/5.6
#65, #66, #68 - 43-86mm f/3.5
#73, #74 - 80-200mm f/4.5
#82 - 85-250mm f/4
I surmise these are not so common lenses, except the 135mm, perhaps? But, as you say, Nikon likely did not produce enough conversion kits. It is far better business model to eventually encourage acquisition of new lenses.
edit: another just popped up, #87, #88 - 50-300 f/4.5
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Great post.
I remember the FTN fondly, as it was my first exposure to Nikon in 1978 (a good friend had one). That prompted me to save and buy an FE in 1979 (still have it).
I hope you can find some relief from your arthritis and enjoy your vintage gear.
Thanks for the well wishes, Fred! Your acquisition from almost 40 years ago can still feel warm and fuzzy! :)
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Welcome back, Eb, and wish your arthritis will be eased by your happy findings to any extent, except for their weight...
The majority of the lenses presented here are still very venerable. Hope you enjoy them both physically and mentally, and share some results here if ever possible. :)
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Wow, nice finds Eb.
That 400mm looks to be in superb condition.
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Welcome back, Eb, and wish your arthritis will be eased by your happy findings to any extent, except for their weight...
The majority of the lenses presented here are still very venerable. Hope you enjoy them both physically and mentally, and share some results here if ever possible. :)
Thanks for your well wishes, Akira. It is great to hear from you. If I recollect correctly, you acquired a 400 some time back, likely not pre-AI. How has it served you?
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Wow, nice finds Eb.
That 400mm looks to be in superb condition.
Indeed, it is mint and spent over 40 years in its case. Of course, the case exterior, vinyl, has completely disintegrated! ;D
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sexy :o :o :o
more and more people are realising the value of old gear. this is the trend these days ::)
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Thanks for your well wishes, Akira. It is great to hear from you. If I recollect correctly, you acquired a 400 some time back, likely not pre-AI. How has it served you?
Eb, yes, I enjoyed my IF version of Ai Nikkor 400/5.6 ED on D610. Unfortunately I sold it and am not sure how it mates with D810, but I've heard that the non-IF version uses also ED glasses and its optical performance is better than IF. So, I'm pretty sure it will serve you nicely.
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This was a present? WOW. Congratulations. Have all the fun in the world with it!
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Congratulations! What a nice product shot as well :)
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[As pointed out by Rolland Vink the 400/5.6 P-C and ED K and AI all have one ED element. To collaborate I found a reference to "fluorocrown ED glass" in this article on the 300/2.0 ED-IF AIS. ...
Link will be added soon.]
EB,
The 400/5.6 Nikkor-P*C may have one ED and one FL element. As I recall from the Nikon, Nikkormat Handbook it did not carry the ED moniker or the gold ring. I have a scan of a Nikon leaflet on the lens. I own a native AI version. I'll check this when I can. I'm not at home at this time.
Dave Hartman
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I would keep both aperture rings. I'd store the original with care.
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The PK-11 and PK-11a can have the meter coupling removed allowing use with pre-AI as well as AF-S Nikkor lenses. So modified it offers auto-aperture but not auto indexing like a short M2 tube.
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I see this repeated over and over again. And I repeat again, the optics of the 400/5.6 P-C are the same as the NIKKOR*ED 400/5.6 (K and AI versions), with one ED element at the front. The P-C version lacks the "ED" designation simply because they hadn't thought of the term yet. Early Nikon literature does mention a new type of glass with Fluorite-like properties, which is probably the source of confusion.
This lens was originally presented at photokina in 1970 as a Nikkor-P (no C), but did not make it to market until 1973. I suspect the prototype used ED glass from Schott, like the Nikkor-H 300/2.8 (see http://www.nikkor.com/story/0011/). Production may have been delayed until Nikon could produce their own ED glass.
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Thanks Roland! Some things can't be repeated enough :)
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My 400/5.6 PC is within 30 units (serial number) from Eb's lens :D
An excellent performer with the typical pleasantly 'rounded' ED colours from the early generation of ED optics. The small amount of lateral CA seen on a digital camera is easily removed in the RAW converter.
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Here are a couple of sheets on the 400/5.6 P-C and AI...
Dave
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Roland's explanation still holds. Same content, but new labelling of the special glass as 'ED' and with it, the introduction of the 'golden ring' to signify the claimed superiority of ED glass.
I have used both versions and saw absolutely no difference in image quality between them. My current 400/5.6 is the P.C.
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David, Thanks for the nice vintage product sheet! Beautiful :)
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"Its use of fluorite crystal and special rare-earth glass helps correct aberrations, especially chromatic ones." --first page above
Is this statement incorrect? Is it one more of Nikon's errors in such publications or am I reading it wrong? As I read it I read two elements as a minimum. Is there a better source of information on these models?
Dave
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The extra-low spectral dispersion of ED glass compares to fluorite, but ED is more robust in the production.
'ED' is Nikon's moniker for this kind of glass, first seen early '70s. Fluorite is of course strictly not glass at all.
As the designs are identical (5/3) the discrepancy in description can be ascribed the nomenclature not the construction of the optics.
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"Its use of fluorite crystal and special rare-earth glass helps correct aberrations, especially chromatic ones." --first page above
Is this statement incorrect? Is it one more of Nikon's errors in such publications or am I reading it wrong? As I read it I read two elements as a minimum. Is there a better source of information on these models?
To the best of my knowledge (which is not perfect), Nikon chose not to use fluorite elements in their telephoto lenses since Fluorite is relatively soft, cracks more easily when subject to shocks, and is more affected by moisture and heat. Nikon was the producer of professional quality lenses, and must have felt that fluorite was too delicate for heavy use (Canon obviously chose a different path). Nikon instead developed ED glass which has much better mechanical qualities - hard enough to be used on the front element, stronger and less subject to moisture and heat. ED glass is not quite as good optically as fluorite glass, but the lens designer had greater freedom on where the ED glass could be used. This is the trade-off they made, their lenses may have been more robust than those from Canon, but Canon's may have been better corrected (although their coatings from that period were poor).
I think ED glass does use fluorite in the mix (?) along with other glasses which improves the mechanical properties. So maybe the quote "use of fluorite crystal and special rare-earth glass ..." is correct, but applies to the same ED element.
Until powerful computers became available in the 1970s, Nikon was not in the habit of redesigning the same lens every few years - ray tracing was still largely manual in those days so designing a lens was a slow and expensive task. From that point of view it seems likely the NIKKOR-P-C and K 400/5.6 are the same optically since they are only a few years apart. On the other hand, they would "tweak" existing designs to improve performance, so it is possible the design changed slightly.
One thing I just noticed, on the lens diagram at the top for the NIKKOR-P-C Auto, the third element behind the front cemented double, is a meniscus lens - the rear surface curves inwards. On the diagram of the AI lens, the rear surface of the third element curves outwards. I'm not sure how much we can trust these diagrams, or the marketing descriptions, but it offer the possibility that they are a little different.
We just have to hope that this lens is subject to one of the 1001 night articles soon...
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Current Ebay search yields:
#13, #16 - 15mm f/5.6
#45 - 135mm f/3.5
#51 - 200mm f/4 Q
#55 - 400mm f/5.6
#65, #66, #68 - 43-86mm f/3.5
#73, #74 - 80-200mm f/4.5
#82 - 85-250mm f/4
I surmise these are not so common lenses, except the 135mm, perhaps? But, as you say, Nikon likely did not produce enough conversion kits. It is far better business model to eventually encourage acquisition of new lenses.
edit: another just popped up, #87, #88 - 50-300 f/4.5
The 135 in question is the K 135/3.5, which was produced for a relatively short time, fewer than 25,000 lenses made. Most of the others are zooms or ultra-wide lenses. Wide lenses need to be assembled with great precision, and are made with shims to ensure infinity focus is correct - just a small difference can throw focus out a long way. Zooms run on cams which are less precise than focus helixes, so they are also fitted to shims to adjust infinity focus. These shims meant that some lenses were slightly longer than others, and so Nikon made two or three AI kits for each lens with different height to compensate. So, for example, a lens with a thick shim should be fitted with the higher (wider) AI kit to compensate. In practice it rarely makes any difference, but in rare cases, fitting the narrow AI kit to a lens with a thick shim might mean the AI cam fails to engage with the AI follower on the camera, or a wide AI ring on a lens with a thin shim may cause the AI ring to jam on the camera.
Since some lenses had multiple AI conversion kits, more kits were made than needed, which means that new kits are still floating around today. Other lenses which only had one AI kit, fewer kits were made so they were used up long ago.
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I think ED glass does use fluorite in the mix (?) along with other glasses which improves the mechanical properties. So maybe the quote "use of fluorite crystal and special rare-earth glass ..." is correct, but applies to the same ED element.
This reading makes sense to me. Is it known that there is only one ED element on the AI version? Anyway I'll consider the original 400/5.6 Nikkor-P*C to be an ED lens without an FL element from here on and the K and AI the same was well.
Dave Hartman
I don't know the origin of the first page. I'll find the origin of the second page as I'm quite sure I scanned the second page.
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I'm fairly sure (but not absolutely sure) that the original 400/5.6 P-C has only one ED element. The AI 400/5.6 IF-ED also has only one element (2nd):
(http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/telephotos/400mmf56edifoptic.jpg)
The NIKKOR-H 300mm f/2.8 from the same period has two ED elements, which is not surprising since it is a faster lens, see http://www.nikkor.com/img/story/0011/
The first scan looks like it is from the lens instruction sheet.
The second page is from the 1979 Nikon Dealer Sales Manual - it comes in a blue binder with separate booklets for each camera model (F2, FE, FM ...), accessories, and a big one with all the lenses. I have one of these.
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It would be nice to have the choice of a 400mm f5.6 AF lens nowadays.
PF or even 'traditional, would be fine.....
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300 PF + TC14E.3 bring you pretty close.
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Congratulations! What a nice product shot as well :)
Thanks, Erik. It was just a quickie shot by filtered window light. A bit too much cropped off the bottom, but easily fixed, if so inclined. May have been my first shot in a year. But, it felt so good!
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Here are a couple of sheets on the 400/5.6 P-C and AI...
Dave
Thanks Dave! That is good information embedded in the marketese lingo. I like!
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Eb, yes, I enjoyed my IF version of Ai Nikkor 400/5.6 ED on D610. Unfortunately I sold it and am not sure how it mates with D810, but I've heard that the non-IF version uses also ED glasses and its optical performance is better than IF. So, I'm pretty sure it will serve you nicely.
I have the non-IF AI version of this lens, and if the pre-AI is the same internally, then I doubt it will disappoint unless it's broken. The long focus throw makes it hard to follow action, but deadly accurate when you can, and it's nice and sharp.
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I have the non-IF AI version of this lens, and if the pre-AI is the same internally, then I doubt it will disappoint unless it's broken. The long focus throw makes it hard to follow action, but deadly accurate when you can, and it's nice and sharp.
Yep, my two 400/5.6 ED AI (non-IF) copies are excellent on my D800 (when I can focus it accurately) and my A7RII. A pre-AI version has always been on my list of lenses to look out for, but to use and to just marvel at.
Congrats on the find.
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The #55 conversion ring arrived today. But, I'm stymied with removing the small philips screws holding the chrome flange to the lens. The best fit screwdriver is a 00x40, which is rather diminutive. The shaft just flexes with effort and I'm concerned about stripping the screw head. After applying heat with a soldering iron 10-15 seconds, there seems to be no release of the screw at all. It appears, after over 40 years, the weld is rather persistent. At this point, I feel brute force is not an option. Are there any suggestions on how to proceed?
Edit: Penetrating oil an option and or lots of heat?
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Apply a small amount of solvent such as acetone to the first screw and wait for up to say 15 minutes until any thread locker softens, repeating several times if needed, until the screw yields.
Then repeat on a screw by screw basis for the other screws.
You can use nail varnish as a thread locker for reassembly purposes.
Try and keep the solvent off any areas that are painted in case the paint suffers.
Hope this helps - not a fast process, but one that should minimise damge to the screws.
Edit: The small Philips screws are more likely to be JIS screws, so make sure that your cross head screw drivers are JIS compatible, else head stripping is likely. JIS screwdrivers seat better into JIS screw heads than do Philips. Micro-Tools can supply JIS drivers.
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You need a JIS screwdriver #0
A strong workbench as support, stand up so you can put your weight directly over the lens/screwdriver a lot of down-force is needed!
wear thin rubber working gloves
loosen with a drop of acetone
You might try torque in the tightening direction to work it loose
Have a small break in-between screws
Don't relax when you get to the last one! Keep the down-force high :)
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Apply a small amount of solvent such as acetone to the first screw and wait for up to say 15 minutes until any thread locker softens, repeating several times if needed, until the screw yields.
Then repeat on a screw by screw basis for the other screws.
You can use nail varnish as a thread locker for reassembly purposes.
Try and keep the solvent off any areas that are painted in case the paint suffers.
Hope this helps - not a fast process, but one that should minimise damge to the screws.
Edit: The small Philips screws are more likely to be JIS screws, so make sure that your cross head screw drivers are JIS compatible, else head stripping is likely. JIS screwdrivers seat better into JIS screw heads than do Philips. Micro-Tools can supply JIS drivers.
You need a JIS screwdriver #0
A strong workbench as support, stand up so you can put your weight directly over the lens/screwdriver a lot of down-force is needed!
wear thin rubber working gloves
loosen with a drop of acetone
You might try torque in the tightening direction to work it loose
Have a small break in-between screws
Don't relax when you get to the last one! Keep the down-force high :)
Thanks to both of you, Erik and Hugh! You have pointed to my nearly fatal error of using a philips driver. I will now be on the hunt for a JIS #0. The acetone idea and a surfeit of patience might just do the trick.
Just out of interest, have you ever had to deal with a broken screw?
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Sure they can break, the head can come off but that is very rare.
With this bit style it is easy to make a mess out of the head,,, so take care - also the screwdriver must be in line the screw axis at all times!
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A camera repairman friend use to use a portable butaine soldering iron to soften the thread lock on manual focus Nikkors. I've used acetone. The thread locker is high temperature Loctite.
If the screwdriver fits well and is strong enough one can torque the head of the screw [without acetone or heat]. I did that once. I managed to extract that screw. I drilled it with pin vice. Jammed a larger bit into it and screwed it into the lens. The somehow removed it from the bit.
Never, never never again! Always ask someone who knows.
Dave Hartman
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i almost always do not require the acetone or torch routine anymore :o :o :o
what I do is use a long JIS screw for torque and use pressure from my palm and power from my elbows and wrists to do the trick.
the heads will come off at times but never on the bayonet screws in my experience, it happens more with cone flush head screws more. happened to me 2-3x now. good thing i have the handy screw extractor bit that i believe is only sold here in Japan in stores but can now be bought on eBay.
https://richardhaw.com/2015/12/29/best-practices-part-1/
this is kind of old and in serious need of an update, which I will do in my new year's vacation ::)
cross head screws are not so bad it's the (-) screws that are a bit tricky at times.
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i almost always do not require the acetone or torch routine anymore :o :o :o
what I do is use a long JIS screw for torque and use pressure from my palm and power from my elbows and wrists to do the trick.
the heads will come off at times but never on the bayonet screws in my experience, it happens more with cone flush head screws more. happened to me 2-3x now. good thing i have the handy screw extractor bit that i believe is only sold here in Japan in stores but can now be bought on eBay.
https://richardhaw.com/2015/12/29/best-practices-part-1/
this is kind of old and in serious need of an update, which I will do in my new year's vacation ::)
cross head screws are not so bad it's the (-) screws that are a bit tricky at times.
The first hurtle is down. I located a screw driver set with JIS bits. Don't like that as much as I would like one with a rigid shaft. The set comes with a supplementary long shaft, as well. I was lucky to get anything at all in our town. Mention JIS and all shop employees gave incredulous looks. I suppose I could have ordered from amazon, if not now on a roll. Actually, this set is nice, but pricey, as it contains bits for all kinds of electronics gear. I got a can of pure acetone, lifetime supply, after finding that the nail care type I had on hand is adulterated.
As a former amateur gun smith, I've extracted my fair share of broken screws, yet, on a lens, this would seem daunting - nerve, comes from experience - me thinks!
I think I will get it done, but there are some other things to do for what remains of this day. Your site is very informative, Richard!
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The first hurtle is down. I located a screw driver set with JIS bits. Don't like that as much as I would like one with a rigid shaft. The set comes with a supplementary long shaft, as well. I was lucky to get anything at all in our town. Mention JIS and all shop employees gave incredulous looks. I suppose I could have ordered from amazon, if not now on a roll. Actually, this set is nice, but pricey, as it contains bits for all kinds of electronics gear. I got a can of pure acetone, lifetime supply, after finding that the nail care type I had on hand is adulterated.
As a former amateur gun smith, I've extracted my fair share of broken screws, yet, on a lens, this would seem daunting - nerve, comes from experience - me thinks!
I think I will get it done, but there are some other things to do for what remains of this day. Your site is very informative, Richard!
glad that you liked it :o :o :o
what's the smallest screw usually found on a gun? M2 I would presume? If it is the screw extractor that I was raving all about will come in handy up to 1.1mm ::)
gun repair has a lot in common with lens repair. a hobbyist friend of mine cleans guns for fun and the same philosophies apply most of the time like not applying too much grease,etc
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gun repair has a lot in common with lens repair. a hobbyist friend of mine cleans guns for fun and the same philosophies apply most of the time like not applying too much grease,etc
Yeah, both are used to shoot something. :o :o :o
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glad that you liked it :o :o :o
what's the smallest screw usually found on a gun? M2 I would presume? If it is the screw extractor that I was raving all about will come in handy up to 1.1mm ::)
gun repair has a lot in common with lens repair. a hobbyist friend of mine cleans guns for fun and the same philosophies apply most of the time like not applying too much grease,etc
Yes, 2mm would be about the smallest with approx. 3mm a more common small screw - 'though the screws are often not metric and thread pitch is all over the place. Sometimes, one just drills and re-taps the hole to fit a screw one has, or adapts. For older guns, (mostly they are older if they need fixing,) parts are inconvenient to locate. As for your friend, a lot of time, the objective is a cleanup, re-finishing the stock, lubrication, re-crowning, bluing and fine tuning the mechanics. Of course, the pros will do the machining not usually accessible to the hobbyist.
A target rifle is no fun unless it is mechanically smooth and accurate. Final accuracy also has lot to do with custom loading the cartridges, which is another obsessive pursuit.
Yeah, both are used to shoot something. :o :o :o
Indeed, true, Akira! I felt uncomfortable about mention of this equivalence, when I started to bring my new camera of the time (D200) on visits (gab sessions) at my friend's shop, (professional gunsmith.) My interest in target shooting and gun repair started to wane with renewed interest in photography. His perceptive comment was to point out, that from now I was going to be shooting something else. Indeed, since then I have gone on countless "shoots," but rarely at the rifle range. There is lots in common. Both photography and target shooting are highly technical! Both pursuits lend themselves to endless tinkering! There is shot discipline. And, one strives to not harm self and what one shoots. There's lots of outdoor fresh air; good friends. One could go on...
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Never, never never again! Always ask someone who knows.
Dave Hartman
I'm glad that I did!
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I would not trust a Bit to be strong enough unless it is a absolutely top high end maker! And still I would never use it!!!
Even the high end ones can break if the hardening is too brittle at the tip,,, the four tiny flanges are about 0.5mm thick each - That is same thickness as five pieces of paper!
The thing is also that the the shaft of the screwdrivers act as a torque limiter in that it flexes, the long slim shaft twist and that 'helps' the screw loosening slowly.
That is also the reason you need to keep down force high until the screw has come out fully.
Good you have a lot of work behind you on guns! :)
There is no room for oversize screws on Nikkor lenses! the mount is simply too thin.
On APO Lanthar 125mm there is plenty of room for oversize screws both at the mount but also inside in the critical weak points! So a nice upgrade.
Please order a set online like;
Moody Pollicis #2401 JIS-S #0
Comes usually in a set with #1 and #00 as well
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Moody+Pollicis+%232401+JIS-S+%230+
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I would not trust a Bit to be strong enough unless it is a absolutely top high end maker! And still I would never use it!!!
Even the high end ones can break if the hardening is too brittle at the tip,,, the four tiny flanges are about 0.5mm thick each - That is same thickness as five pieces of paper!
The thing is also that the the shaft of the screwdrivers act as a torque limiter in that it flexes, the long slim shaft twist and that 'helps' the screw loosening slowly.
That is also the reason you need to keep down force high until the screw has come out fully.
Good you have a lot of work behind you on guns! :)
There is no room for oversize screws on Nikkor lenses! the mount is simply too thin.
On APO Lanthar 125mm there is plenty of room for oversize screws both at the mount but also inside in the critical weak points! So a nice upgrade.
Please order a set online like;
Moody Pollicis #2401 JIS-S #0
Comes usually in a set with #1 and #00 as well
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Moody+Pollicis+%232401+JIS-S+%230+
Thanks, Erik. I do share misgivings about the bit style screwdriver. I will keep it because it is the most economical option for a great variety of specialized small screw types. For the lens, I will certainly order a Moody Pollicis. I surmise that you prefer the long shaft version! ;) It may have to be ordered through a source other than Amazon.com. They are notorious for not exporting many items to Canada, as they like to keep a separation from the Canadian site, presumably so as not to compete - even though the item may not be available on Amazon.ca.
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Thanks, everyone for the great helpful advice. I do realize my lack of experience with lenses and was graciously saved from being a total klutz. The finalized AI conversion project will have to wait, 'though, until my long shaft Moody Policis set arrives from the States sometime in January.
Incidentally, with regard to the long shaft driver discussion, I also found this advantageous for gunsmithing, the tightening of small screws, scope mounts, etc. The flex in the longer shaft gives good and safe indication of tightening torque, short of ruining a screw head, or threads. Of course, for larger screws, a torque driver was also helpful. The correct tightening of stock mounting screws is indispensable to gun accuracy. In fact, some target rifle manufacturers publish their torque specifications. For others, it is trial by error - or just good feel, from experience.
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I use the longer one for the bayonet screws :o :o :o
https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%99%E3%83%83%E3%82%BB%E3%83%AB-VESSEL-%E3%83%9E%E3%82%A4%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AD%E3%83%89%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC-No-9900-0-100/dp/B0016VA0CU/ref=pd_cp_60_2/353-1493724-5359633?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=618GVCGPVRYRPK0B357W (https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%99%E3%83%83%E3%82%BB%E3%83%AB-VESSEL-%E3%83%9E%E3%82%A4%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AD%E3%83%89%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC-No-9900-0-100/dp/B0016VA0CU/ref=pd_cp_60_2/353-1493724-5359633?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=618GVCGPVRYRPK0B357W)
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Removing the bayonet is not going so well. First screw out OK with 2 applications of acetone. Second screw, I very easily stripped the screw head using the #0. I could still get a little bite with the #00, but that was quickly gone. Interesting that this screw head was reamed out going the opposite direction as well, and I had not turned it that way. Oh well, I'm taking a pause because the screws are very stubborn.
What to do with the screw I ruined? Should I buy a mini torch and burn off the loctite? Likely, I will also need to drill and use a screw extractor. So I will be on the hunt for this SK11 extractor. Yikes, almost $80 CA on ebay. Rakuten price is reasonable but will not ship to Canada. I'm hooped!
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The best deal for the SK11 screw extractor I could get on ebay was $47 US or $64 CA. This set includes 1 - 1.5 - 2 mm. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/361768639939 I picked up the last one, for now.
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I've lost count of the number of times I've found myself in the same situation.
Thread lockers are basically thermoset plastics, so as others have suggested - acetone or heat are the best way of loosening the bond.
As far as removing the screws; holding the screwdriver by hand is clumsy & awkward with the very real risk of damaging the lens or yourself.
I do the job in a drill press.
First remove the power from the drill in case it accidentally starts.
I use a screwdriver that I have removed the handle from. I then insert the screwdriver's shank into the drill chuck.
Rotating the spindle feed (which lowers the drill chuck/spindle) will force the screwdriver into the screw's head.
Using a leaver inserted into the drill chuck allows a large amount of torque and the spindle feed mechanism allows a large amount of axial force to be applied to the screw's head.
The lens is generally held by hand.
I have never needed heat or acetone to break the thread locking bond nor have I ever broken a screw with this method. I have certainly broken many when trying to do it by hand though.
With this system, it allows you to gently reverse the torque, back & forth, until the bond breaks..............without damaging the screw's head or the screwdriver's tip.
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An interesting point shown on the website of a company that makes liquid threadlockers -
Q3: I cannot get an assembly apart where a threadlocker was used. What solvent will break the threadlocker down?
A: No solvent will wick into the joint to break the threadlocker down. This is either hand tool removable at room temperature or if not, it requires high temperatures of 450-600°F to separate parts. The products are thermoset plastics in the cured state that soften at higher temperatures. Thus, you need to disassemble while at the higher softening point temperature. Do not let this cool down first. Otherwise, it will resoldify. Solvents like methyl ethyl keytone and methylene chloride can be used for clean-up of residue only after disassembly.
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The best deal for the SK11 screw extractor I could get on ebay was $47 US or $64 CA. This set includes 1 - 1.5 - 2 mm. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/361768639939 I picked up the last one, for now.
Hello, I don't think this will work. It's too big (1.5mm) and is made for wood screws. :o :o :o
the 1mm ones do cost a bit (pun intended), I got mine for $10USD for the bit alone. ::)
Why won't they ship to Canada? Can you investigate? If we know the reason then maybe I can get that myself and ship it to you personally.
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A: No solvent will wick into the joint to break the threadlocker down.
I've used acetone and it works. The screws come out fairly easy. It takes time, more time than a professional camera repair person has which is why my friend used a portable butane soldering iron. My friend said MEK will work also but again it takes time. They are not going to wick their way in. If they did they would soften the thread locker quickly.
We are talking here about rather small screws in a situation where the acetone can stand on the head of the screw and around it for several minutes. It is absorbed slowly. It might need to be applied twice as it will evaporate. Larger assemblies where thread lockers are used could not be helped with acetone or MEK. In general the Q&A is correct.
Acetone is a powerful solvent of plastics. MEK can be used to make the adhesive used to activate the adhesive used to attach the leatherette to Nikon cameras from the Nikon F to Nikon F3 and FM/FE family and similar vintage. Reactivating the adhesive is better than reapplying adhesive as this avoids a build up of adhesive giving a professional look to the repair.
Dave
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i usually let the solvent work on it before dinner and get back to it after I had my meal and jaegermeister ::)
sometimes, I would have it the overnight :o :o :o
Frankly, I never had the screw problem after buying the long-shafted VESSELs. only very rarely do i get a problem like that ::)
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Wery sad to hear! Try again! You need downward force!!! And Rons solution is a workaround if your not good with your hands.
Usually there is still enough left for the screwdriver to grip on to,,,
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Also keep in mind such old screws tend to be much harder than the material surrounding them ... so ensure a perfect grip before trying to drill them out.
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Only the head should be drilled!!! Leave the threads to grip on too.
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Btw. The stripped screw; clean the burrs away carefully so the tip of the screwdriver can get fully down into the head and try again, with:
Downward force,,,
Standing up,,,
Solid table,,,
Wrist straight,,,
Rubber working gloves,,,
This always works! :)
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I would add (as a general mechanics' rule of thumb) that if you are dealing with a very stuck screw, it is often better to alternate on and off rotation initially, to get it unstuck. If you just yank in the loosening direction, you're more likely to strip the head or shear the fastener, but if you go back and forth, seemingly in vain, it will often eventually break loose. Remember that any movement at all is basically a victory. Be patient.
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I've lost count of the number of times I've found myself in the same situation.
Thread lockers are basically thermoset plastics, so as others have suggested - acetone or heat are the best way of loosening the bond.
As far as removing the screws; holding the screwdriver by hand is clumsy & awkward with the very real risk of damaging the lens or yourself.
I do the job in a drill press.
First remove the power from the drill in case it accidentally starts.
I use a screwdriver that I have removed the handle from. I then insert the screwdriver's shank into the drill chuck.
Rotating the spindle feed (which lowers the drill chuck/spindle) will force the screwdriver into the screw's head.
Using a leaver inserted into the drill chuck allows a large amount of torque and the spindle feed mechanism allows a large amount of axial force to be applied to the screw's head.
The lens is generally held by hand.
I have never needed heat or acetone to break the thread locking bond nor have I ever broken a screw with this method. I have certainly broken many when trying to do it by hand though.
With this system, it allows you to gently reverse the torque, back & forth, until the bond breaks..............without damaging the screw's head or the screwdriver's tip.
That is ingenious! I'll investigate if I can get enough throw for the 400mm on my table top press - though I doubt it will be enough.
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i usually let the solvent work on it before dinner and get back to it after I had my meal and jaegermeister ::)
sometimes, I would have it the overnight :o :o :o
Frankly, I never had the screw problem after buying the long-shafted VESSELs. only very rarely do i get a problem like that ::)
My rarity has occurred, unfortunately! I started the acetone treatment yesterday and have continued many times since. Perhaps today will be my day! Seems like the acetone evaporates before making its way down to the threads. On the one screw I extracted, the thread locking compound was way down nearer the bottom of the shaft. When, at one time, you had resorted to using a mini butane torch, how long did you apply the flame?
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Wery sad to hear! Try again! You need downward force!!! And Rons solution is a workaround if your not good with your hands.
Usually there is still enough left for the screwdriver to grip on to,,,
Yes, my hands do shake with the creep of age! :(
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Only the head should be drilled!!! Leave the threads to grip on too.
Absolutely! Use of the mini extractors is a back up plan as it will take several weeks for their arrival. I'll avoid drilling into the screw shank, if it comes to that. Thanks.
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Btw. The stripped screw; clean the burrs away carefully so the tip of the screwdriver can get fully down into the head and try again, with:
Downward force,,,
Standing up,,,
Solid table,,,
Wrist straight,,,
Rubber working gloves,,,
This always works! :)
Erik, I thank you for your encouragement and will certainly work on my technique. I was hoping for one more try on the reamed out screw head but not until I have successfully loosened the others. If they do not budge, it is unlikely I will be successful with the damaged one. I'm sorely tempted to use a mini butane torch. Why, oh why, would Nikon use a high temperature thread locker on such fine screws? I have not yet checked if the repeated acetone treatments and the overnight wait has done any good.
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I would add (as a general mechanics' rule of thumb) that if you are dealing with a very stuck screw, it is often better to alternate on and off rotation initially, to get it unstuck. If you just yank in the loosening direction, you're more likely to strip the head or shear the fastener, but if you go back and forth, seemingly in vain, it will often eventually break loose. Remember that any movement at all is basically a victory. Be patient.
Mathew, this is essentially what I have been doing and paying attention to the flex in the screw driver shaft. It is disappointing that nothing has budged (other than the first screw.) The downside, of repeated tries is cumulative wear on the screw head. These things are really stuck! Moderate heat from a soldering pencil, and, indeed, someone had recommended using a hair dryer, does not work to loosen the thread locker.
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An interesting point shown on the website of a company that makes liquid threadlockers -
Q3: I cannot get an assembly apart where a threadlocker was used. What solvent will break the threadlocker down?
A: No solvent will wick into the joint to break the threadlocker down. This is either hand tool removable at room temperature or if not, it requires high temperatures of 450-600°F to separate parts. The products are thermoset plastics in the cured state that soften at higher temperatures. Thus, you need to disassemble while at the higher softening point temperature. Do not let this cool down first. Otherwise, it will resoldify. Solvents like methyl ethyl keytone and methylene chloride can be used for clean-up of residue only after disassembly.
There's the nub of it! Moderate heat will not work (my soldering pencil max is 400 F, and the acetone is not making it down the screw threads, so far. Here comes the torch, if I can get one today.
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Hello, I don't think this will work. It's too big (1.5mm) and is made for wood screws. :o :o :o
the 1mm ones do cost a bit (pun intended), I got mine for $10USD for the bit alone. ::)
Why won't they ship to Canada? Can you investigate? If we know the reason then maybe I can get that myself and ship it to you personally.
Perhaps you are right, but the set does include the 1 mm. drill size. I assumed that the one you recommended was the same as the smallest (1mm.) one in the set. Not reading Japanese, all I could see is the mention of 1 mm. on the package. I inquired from Rakuten and confirmed that the dealer will only ship domestically. Believe it or not, I get the same thing from lots of US dealers who can't be bothered to ship abroad. One solution they suggest at Rakuten is trans shipping to a domestic dealer who will then repackage and ship abroad. By that time, the $13 CA item may well cost as much as the ebay dealer wanted $77 CA.
The point of the intended design for wood screws is well taken. But, I was reassured when I looked at the illustrations on both packages which showed exactly the same pictures based on wood screw examples. So I can be forgiven for my conclusion that they were the same product.
I appreciate your kind offer to make the purchase for me, Richard! However, the one is ordered and I will wait for it, for now, and see what's up. Maybe luck is with me today. I will try the butane torch method of desperation.
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An interesting point shown on the website of a company that makes liquid threadlockers -
Q3: I cannot get an assembly apart where a threadlocker was used. What solvent will break the threadlocker down?
A: No solvent will wick into the joint to break the threadlocker down. This is either hand tool removable at room temperature or if not, it requires high temperatures of 450-600°F to separate parts. The products are thermoset plastics in the cured state that soften at higher temperatures. Thus, you need to disassemble while at the higher softening point temperature. Do not let this cool down first. Otherwise, it will resoldify. Solvents like methyl ethyl keytone and methylene chloride can be used for clean-up of residue only after disassembly.
Ron, your information, got me thinking about the acetone. It evaporates so fast, would it really migrate down the threads? Just to see how well acetone dissolves or degrades the thread locking thermoplastic, I placed the one extracted screw in an acetone bath for several minutes. After drying the screw, the thread locking compound still persisted. I could flake some off, but just a bit, with a fine point, so if the acetone degraded the plastic, it was minimal. Acetone success, reported by many, may well depend on the product Nikon used at other time periods.
When celebrations are done, I will try your drill press method. The lens is 26 cm. The drill press throw is about 23 cm, with a small bit inserted. I may be able to gain extra throw by clamping the base to the work bench and rotating the head assembly to the side. Looking forward to the New Year to try this! Happy New Year!
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Hi Eb,
In some way I'm not surprised by the result of the little experiment you did with the acetone.
I must admit that I have never used it as it never made any sense to me.............how it was supposed to make its way through the tiny gap of the assembled male & female threads..............and this gap now being filled with thread locker.
I looked through Loctite's entire product catalogue and they do not make a product that supposedly dissolves thread locking compound that has set. One would assume that if such a product could be produced, that Loctite would make it available in their product line-up.
But still; numerous people have claimed success with this procedure so I don't intend to argue with their positive results.
You may need to slightly modify the screwdriver's shank should the screw require a large amount of extraction torque. I have found that in some circumstances; the 3-jaw drill chuck has difficulty gripping the round, smooth shank. So I have had to grind by hand, 3 small flats (at 120 degrees) for the jaws of the chuck to grip on.
You'll find that having someone hold the lens for you is a great help.
In the past I have used a self-centering 3-jaw chuck off a lathe to hold the lens.............but not gripping the lens directly. I can explain how in another post if you like.
Don't forget to remove the drill from the power supply!
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....The downside, of repeated tries is cumulative wear on the screw head. ......
If enough downward force is applied there will not even be a mark on the screw head!!! It will look mint,,,
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If enough downward force is applied there will not even be a mark on the screw head!!! It will look mint,,,
Yes, that would make sense, but I'm far from perfect! :-[
In hindsight, the work bench was too high (or I have become shorter, this is true ;) ) I suspect that I am not able to maintain consistent downward pressure, as my hand starts to shake when I put it under stress. Arthritis reduces strength. Bad eyesight is also a source of frustration as it can't be corrected. This may have had something to do with accurately gauging the screw driver head engagement. I overlooked all these things, because in the past, these would not have been a concern at all. So I was inadvertently sloppy! However, my misadventure should not discourage anyone else from tackling a lens disassembly if they feel fit. I can say, unequivocally, that I was given the best of instructions that most should be able to follow, flawlessly.
Unfortunately, I have become all washed up for this kind of thing. :( But, whatever reason for my lack of competence, it seems obvious to me that Ron's method with the drill press will do the trick. I still have to wait for a Moody driver blade without a handle, since I do not want to cut up my screw driver. I'm sure to need it for screwing things back together. (New screws are coming.) The shipping of the extractor bit is delayed, because of holiday week in Japan. So, nothing much will happen with this project for 3 or more weeks. In preparation I have readied and adapted my drill press which is rated nominally at 8 inch (20 cm.) throw to be increased by approximately 10 cm. I also have acquired a nice mini butane torch, should that be necessary. When the time comes, my wife will hold the lens for me, while I have hands free for the drill press operation. So we shall see that, after this is all done, I will have become an "old hand" at lens repair. ::)
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Screw extractor saved the day!!! :o :o :o
One of the screws was badly stripped by whoever worked on this thing
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Screw extractor saved the day!!! :o :o :o
One of the screws was badly stripped by whoever worked on this thing
Well, it wasn't me that worked on that thing! ;D
Richard, it is reassuring that you were able to extract the screw so handily! How deep did you drill? Did you have to apply any heat before the extraction?
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How deep did you drill? Did you have to apply any heat before the extraction?
Hi! Well, the Japanese instructions says that 1-1.5mm is deep enough if I recall it properly but in practice, 2mm is needed. Be sure that you are drilling with a 1mm bit and if you drilled too deep the extractor will flare the screw instead of extracting it and that would be more trouble. you will bite deeper than what you need and the screw gets stuck even more. start with around 1mm and see if it's biting then drill as you need. blow the junk away and use a ratchet on reverse. :o :o :o
i know it sounds like I am inventing stories from my ass but I even extracted a tiny set screw with this M1 extractor ::)
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I left this thread hanging long enough! (What, 6 months?) Today, I screwed up courage and unscrewed the mount screws using the drill press method. That was easy-peasy for someone crippled with arthritis. (I no longer have the steady hand, strength, dexterity, nor ability at fine grasping - so no wonder I blew my first attempt back in early January.)
I waited 2 months for the screw extractor from Japan and then re-ordered after that appeared lost in the mail. Short story, is that I did not need the extractor, nor heat from a pencil butane torch. Using a cut off Phillips shank from a cheap jeweler's set, I was able to get some purchase on the stripped head, where the JIS shank could no longer bite. However, the JIS shank (thanks to the drill press) served well for the remaining screws. The old screws which I had mangled in the first attempt were replaced with new ones. There is now no evidence remaining of amateurish ham handedness. :)
The lens works fine in my digital bodies, but the AI aperture ring turns stiffly. The stops click in OK, just a bit harder to turn the ring. Obviously it is not as nice a ring as the pre-AI version.
I'm pleased and relieved that the project is completed, even 'though my old eyes are not so pleased with manual focus operation. :(
(http://www.pbase.com/emueller/image/165786404/original.jpg)
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congratulations! :o :o :o
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Eb, good to know you didn't screw the lens and get it back to work! :D
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Eb, good to know you didn't screw the lens and get it back to work! :D
;D ;D ;D
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congratulations! :o :o :o
Thanks, Richard, for the help with the extractor idea and sourcing it from Japan. Even if not needed at this time, there is sure to be an opportunity some time later.
8)
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Congratulations! Persistence prevails ;) Enjoy
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Thumbs up on finally re-trying and succeeding!
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Congratulations! Persistence prevails ;) Enjoy
Thumbs up on finally re-trying and succeeding!
Thanks! You both are kind! I'd say procrastination was 90% and persistence 10%. Yet, even procrastinators keep the goal in mind, waiting for the right moment. ;)
My friend and uncle-in-law, who gifted these old treasures, wants me to see how well the lens performs in a D800 body. I will oblige him with comparisons to other, more modern, 400mm combinations in my lens stable. Though in terms of practical use for this lens, I'd reserve it for landscapes, where I can indulge in painstaking manual focus. It's not close focusing and not good for requiting my love for closeups. There is not much chance of wildlife images, unless for rare situations where pre-focus is possible. However, for those with younger eyes, and/or a better for manual focus body, the options may be wider.
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A layman questions to this expert thread: how heavy is the setup of the D800 plus your 400mm gem? Looks like a chunk of metal to me.
Congratulations to finishing your project from my side too!
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A layman questions to this expert thread: how heavy is the setup of the D800 plus your 400mm gem? Looks like a chunk of metal to me.
Congratulations to finishing your project from my side too!
Frank, it is indeed a chunk of metal (heavy metal!) The kitchen scale weighs D800E plus lens at 2.43 Kg +/- a few grams. But, that is just a start on the weight of gear, if you include a sturdy tripod and head. Yet, I put that into perspective when I weigh my 200-400 (plus camera) at twice that, 4.8 Kg.
While weight should not be a big deal, (it hasn't been a problem in the past,) it is now so. More often than not, I reach for my Fuji X100. It still suffices for my casual photographic desires. Beyond that, I have had to cut way back on photography! :( :( :(