Goodbye Full-Frame Cameras

[David H. Hartman]

I am still wondering (those of you reading this that know the answer, please share here) whether when the replacement for the D810 comes out, hopefully with more pixels, whether there will have been enough progress in sensor design/implementation in the interval so that a full-frame DSLR sensor can (perhaps) more closely approximate what we gain by going to this smallish MF sensor (50 Mpx) of the X1D or Fuji GFX.

You will have generally more DoF and less background blurring when moving from a larger format to a smaller one. You will generally have less dynamic range also. The larger format surface area allows the capture of more light, more photons. Beyond this much depends on the lenses, focal length, aperture, polishing of the glass and for the camera the more pixels means finder detail provided the lenses can deliver. If the lens can deliver more pixels will mean more fine detail. As I understand the engineers are pushing the limits of what is possible in sensor end electronics. I think you'll have to wait and see what can be done.

Dave Hartman

[Erik Lund]

Please have a look at the image, Winged Bull in the church almost at the end, focus slowly starts at left somewhere then increase ever so subtle then at the end of the relief it washes out and disappears before the corner,,, where is it sharp? This is at f/16,,,, I don't understand,,, ?

The windows show several strange blue hues in the came strips,,, ?

The highlights in the leaves outside seems to have airy disks,,, ?

[Bjørn Rørslett]

You will have generally more DoF and less background blurring when moving from a larger format to a smaller one. You will generally have less dynamic range also. The larger format surface area allows the capture of more light, more photons. Beyond this much depends on the lenses, focal length, aperture, polishing of the glass and for the camera the more pixels means finder detail provided the lenses can deliver. If the lens can deliver more pixels will mean more fine detail. As I understand the engineers are pushing the limits of what is possible in sensor end electronics. I think you'll have to wait and see what can be done.

Dave Hartman

These generalisations always have an underlying complex set of conditions that might or might not be obvious.

It is trivially true a large sensor collects more photons. however, it also covers a larger area, thus light intensity is the same. People tend to overlook this pretty obvious fact. Thus it boils down to other factors whether the larger format generates a higher dynamic range.

Generating the same resolution per area becomes harder when the image circle grows and keeping up the aperture (lens "speed") becomes quite difficult. Probably there is an optimum area size for resolution and that can be a moving target depending on whether the lens is a wide angle, [format] normal, or long focal length.

[David H. Hartman]

Michael,

After stacking an image do you save all the individual shots: for a few days, weeks, months or indefinitely? This is probably a dumb question but the megabytes must be staggering even at 36MP.

Dave

I have to put this somewhere. This is what I think every time I see the title to this thread...

So goodbye yellow brick road
Where the dogs of society howl
You can't plant me in your penthouse
I'm going back to my plough

...no deep meaning here, just an association.

[David H. Hartman]

DoF at 100% pixels is going to be in short supply. What matters is DoF at presentation magnification and normal viewing distance to something maybe half again closer than normal. For me if I like a photograph I generally want to examine details from a closer distance.

Dave

[Michael Erlewine]

Michael,

After stacking an image do you save all the individual shots: for a few days, weeks, months or indefinitely? This is probably a dumb question but the megabytes must be staggering even at 36MP.

Dave

Yes, I save them all, many hundreds of thousands of them. It is a problem. I was hoping that with MF I can get by with short stacks, fewer layers. We will see.

[BW]

Børge that is a bit harsh,,, Not really your style Anyway

The carpenters tools show a great deal of detail and how the sensor does with tone graduations an overall very nice image with huge amount of details, f/16 and only two centimeters or inch of dof,,,

The landscape image, it seems the 45mm is struggling with the back ground rendering

Boat washing Purple fringing galore

Pineapple very slim dof, but on the other hand very smooth transition from in focus to out of focus,,, a stack of many images are needed to get this sharp and this is f/16

Church at f/8, detail galore when you see the text but bg is struggling even at ISO 400,,, Ouch,,,

Sorry I was just as harsh as Børge,,, 

Maybe I was a bit harsh, but I am getting rather tired of the way camera manufacturers present their newest toys. As if everyone would be able to get the end results that leading artist with a menageri of assistants could? Rant end

[CS]

Maybe I was a bit harsh, but I am getting rather tired of the way camera manufacturers present their newest toys. As if everyone would be able to get the end results that leading artist with a menageri of assistants could? Rant end

 Buying a soccer ball doesn't make you Pelé.

[Jakov Minić]

Buying a soccer ball doesn't make you Pelé.

Pelé never played soccer, but I agree that a camera doesn't make a photographer.

[BW]

Buying a soccer ball doesn't make you Pelé.

But I can pretend to be

[David H. Hartman]

Maybe I was a bit harsh, but I am getting rather tired of the way camera manufacturers present their newest toys. As if everyone would be able to get the end results that leading artist with a menageri of assistants could? Rant end

This isn't new. I was reading this kind of line back in 1970.

The Nikon F lead to better opportunities compared to my father's Mamiya XXX with a fixed 50/2.8 lens. The F2 solved the problem of where to put the back when I changed film, etc. I'd like to shoot a little Tri-X (if something like it is made) and print in the darkroom once in a while. I'll never go back to film generally and never, never for color.

Dave

[CS]

But I can pretend to be

I think that describes many of us. 

[Torgeir Jensen]

or Bjør Rørslett
Most of the Nikkors will not be able to light the whole 33x44 sqmm because most Nikkors are made for a smaller image circle fit for 24x36

What about the tilt shift Nikkors, will they give a larger image on a MF camera with an adapter?
I'm just curious......

[Bjørn Rørslett]

What about the tilt shift Nikkors, will they give a larger image on a MF camera with an adapter?
I'm just curious......

Yes, but not excessively so. The problem is the lens mount cuts off some of the peripheral  rays. This is no problem on a 24x36/FX camera as the entire frame is well illuminated as long as the lens is moved within its operational limits. However, on a larger format you will run into problems unless the lens mount is modified. Furthermore, the register distance (lens rear to film plane) will be too short on an MF  camera, unless this is one of the newer mirrorless model.

[Erik Lund]

Bjørn and I had the chance to get hands on with the New Hasselblad X1D in a shop in Amsterdam,,,

The camera feels very solid and sturdy, nice feel of button action, didn't see how to adjust the diopter, so viewfinder was not sharp and highlights where blown not in the same league as the Leica SL that I can compare it to re mirror less,,, the lenses are bland,,,

What surprised me the most was that the movement of the optics while focusing made the image in the viewfinder zoom erratically as it was hunting for focus, similar to an old point and shoot is the best way I can describe it,,, click klack