Goodbye Full-Frame Cameras

[simsurace]

I think the arguments do not really support the choice, but I'm still looking forward to the results. Sometimes one has to follow one's gut and try something. Good luck!

[Tristin]

Michael, I love the image in #24. 

[John Koerner]

I did not just impulsively decide on the Hasselblad X1D system, although I did impulsively order it one day. Before making this decision, I spent about a year or more exploring all the avenues I could beyond the many Nikon systems I had used over the years. In terms of other cameras, I purchased and tested the Pentax K3 and then the K1, with a particular interest in their Pixel-Shift – super-resolution. I found that for my work there were few native Pentax lenses that I could appreciate. I ended up mostly using some Voigtlanders in Pentax mount, the 125mm APO-Lanthar, the 90mm APO Lanther (original and newer models), the Zeiss Pentax PK Distagon 28mm ZK, the Sigma 24mm ART lens, and others.

While the Pixel-Shift feature of the Pentax cameras was fascinating (if limited), ultimately the Pentax was IMO too unfriendly with non-Pentax lenses for my work and Pentax lenses were not that distinctive. In addition, I bought and used the Sony A7R II, both by itself and in conjunction with various bellows cameras and systems. This Sony system was interesting, and I was already familiar with the Sony A7R and the Sony A7s. The A7R II was useful with the bellows systems, in particular the Cambo Actus. Still, it had problems, so that after a while I sold it while it still had value and am waiting for a higher-end upgrade from Sony with perhaps a larger sensor.

Here is a shot with the Pentax K1 and the Voigtlander APO 90mm lens in Pixel-Shift mode. When all things are equal, the result rivals MF images IMO.

I also looked at Large Format, lenses and systems, working with the Rollei X-Act 2, the Novoflex CASTBAL, and the Novoflex BALPRO systems. I investigated a whole series of large-format lenses, including both Copal implementations and barrel-type lenses from Schneider, Rodenstock, Zeiss, and other lenses. I did find out that there are some incredible bargains among these lenses, in particular in barrel-lens format. I went through about ten different LF lenses, of which I kept a few that I could not part with. Some of my findings can be seen here, for those who are possible interested. Many more volumes not yet released.

http://traffic.libsyn.com/spiritgrooves/DSLR_Close-Up.pdf

http://traffic.libsyn.com/spiritgrooves/DSLR_Close-Up_Volume_Two_v3.pdf

Something I learned from all of this is the value of the medium and large-format lenses and systems. Still, I assumed I would never spring for one. Too much money for my budget.  However, when most of the systems I was testing out showed various kinds of flaws for my particular work (close-up and stacked nature photos), by elimination I ended up face-to-face once again with medium format.

For me, all roads ended up at medium format, so when something relatively inexpensive appeared (the X1D), I decided, after studying the work of Ming Thein with Hasselblad, to take the plunge. So I did not go into this without some consideration.

The most blatant question of all hasn't even been asked: does anyone really need a $9,000 camera to capture images of their potted plants and dew drops on their back lawn?

I mean, essentially, you're trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Nothing is going to raise the level of interest in such common, ho-hum subjects.

IMO, that money would be better spent on a trip to somewhere exotic, with truly interesting subject matter, where your existing Nikon equipment will take the more compelling images ...

There is no Hasselblad camera that could have captured these images ... taken at the long end of 900mm:













Bottom Line: Any photo that can be taken with a Hasselblad can be also taken with a Nikon ... but not any photo that can be taken with a Nikon can be taken with a Hasselblad

Jack

[Akira]

Jack, stunning images!  Ironically the hobby of Victor Hasselblad  was bird watching and shooting birds with the very camera he had developed...

[David H. Hartman]

Bottom Line: Any photo that can be taken with a Hasselblad can be also taken with a Nikon ... but not any photo that can be taken with a Nikon can be taken with a Hasselblad

Jack

I'm sure this is not true, still the Hasselblad X1D is not the camera for me. The price and electronic viewfinder will keep me away.

Dave

Maybe the X5D will be compelling.

---

Who here remembers the "Instant Blackout Mirror" of the Hasselblad 500 series? Who longs for that technology to return?



Dave

[FGAng]

Not sure if it is me or what?  The star of the show hasn't shown up yet in this thread - where's the blad (or the Fuji MF)?  Pictures taken by the blad?

Or is it all theoretical right now?

Or our TS is hoping one of us will give him sufficiently convincing reason not to part with Nikon and not get the blad?

Personally I think to each his own.  So what it TS wants to be able to print billboard size photos of whatever he shoots?  So what if I don't care?

But I second that all pictures that can be by the blad can be taken by Nikon, albeit differently given the format difference (resolution wise a 50 MP Nikon D850 or D900 is on the books, just be patient), a one-stop advantage to the blad but at a significant cost-size-weight penalty; but not all Nikon shots can be taken with a blad, especially at the exotic end of long telephoto, or inside an underwater housing photographing a pygmy seahorse, or hiking up some exotic mountains (ok this one maybe the blad can, with loads of gym workout or hiring a porter).

Should we perhaps go silent - until the star shows up and pictures paraded?  Then we can extol the virtues of the blad and wow over the resolution of the MF.

[Fanie]

I think I understand Michael's journey and why he is doing what he is doing for his type of photography.

Similarly I was waiting for the D500 so long for my type of photography that I ended loosing interest, and will most likely not buy one, the window of opportunity has passed, Nikons pricing in SA has gone ballistic anyway, and has put a damper on my hobby photography.

I now shoot what I can with my D2Xs in good light with long lenses, and the D800 in between, It will have to do for the unforeseen future.

[PedroS]

Well, sell both I get yourself the D500... 

[Michael Erlewine]

I find this thread incredible, a mix of wishes, opinions, fear, and loathing. It shows me how emotional this topic is for many of us. Have you ever been clear about the direction you are going? I am, very clear, and almost no one seems to understand, even though I keep repeating it in different ways.

I am not giving up FF and especially not giving up the D810. You don’t have to defend FF because I am not attacking it. What I am doing is augmenting it, where it is limited by sensor size. I am going beyond the limitations of FF toward a bigger sensor, one with larger photosites. At the same time, by augmenting with medium format, I am adding to my years of close-up photography, portrait and landscape photography. It is not that I have not already done this with FF. Of course I have because I had no choice. As MF comes down in price, now I have a choice.

I have also examined in detail the Pentax K3 and K1, the Sony A7R II, the Nikon V1, Sony RX100, Sony A7s, Sigma Merrill, and all kinds of technical and view cameras (Rollei X-Act 2, Cambo Actus, Novoflex CASTBAL, Novoflex BALPRO, and dozens of bellows and focus rails. This is not to mention everything Nikon, from the Nikon D1x on up to the D810, plus Coolpix before that. I won’t even mention lenses. I have done my homework. This is not just a knee-jerk reaction.

Also, I am not interested in MF for larger prints because I don’t print, never have. That’s not the only reason MF (larger photosites) is useful. And I clearly see that the Fuji GFX MF camera is basically what I have been looking for Nikon to offer me, but the Fuji is not here yet, and not yet in production, plus it will take a lot of fiddling and adapters for F-Mount lenses to appear before I would be interested. But yes, the Fuji type is probably my future and I am sure Nikon will get there too. So, why chose the Hasselblad X1D?

As I keep mentioning, I want to travel and travel light. I would like a small rather inconspicuous camera and a few basic (but good) smallish lenses to haul around. I also would like a 50 Mpx sensor with good color. I don’t care about the central lens-shutter or the 1/2000 second flash synch. I like the color and quality that the Sony 50 Mpx sensor offers in the various MF cameras, in particular in Hasselblad’s implementation. I like the look and size of the X1D, and will probably like the haptics, although I have yet to actually touch one.

As for money, I am not rich. I had to sell a lot of lenses to get the X1D, and am still doing so. This is the first real MF camera to come down in price to where I would even consider it. I had a Mamiya RZ67, but that was years ago. I certainly got a reaction to this thread, but I was looking for those like myself who would understand what I am doing, why, and like to discuss this advent of MF into our world as an adjunct to FF. Thank goodness, there were a few of you here.

But yes, I believe (at least for me) this is a watershed moment. I can see that in a few years, where today I use FF DSLRs, I will be using MF DSLRs, especially if I can adapt F-Mount lenses to them. As for those who feel compelled to claim that FF can do anything that MF can (and better), please... give me a break.

[Les Olson]

Who here remembers the "Instant Blackout Mirror" of the Hasselblad 500 series? Who longs for that technology to return?

A good example of how, once upon a time, cameras - especially expensive ones - could get away with quirks that these days would be regarded as intolerable defects. 

For those who have never used one, a Hasselbald 500 series does not have instant mirror return: the mirror stays up until you wind the film on.  So it is not just instant blackout but permanent blackout. (All - AFAIK - MF film cameras are the same, except the Mamiya 645). 

The difference with the 500 series is that winding the film on activates a mechanism that cocks the shutter in the lens, and trips the shutter when you take the next picture.  The lens can only be put on or taken off the body if both the shutter and the body are cocked.  This is a terrible arrangement, because it is possible to get the body and the lens out of synch while the lens is on the body, and in that case the camera is jammed.  You have to take off the back, and use a screwdriver - assuming you remembered to bring one, and your reading glasses - to turn the screw that resets the shutter.  And as long as the screwdriver doesn't slip and scratch the rear lens element away you go.

Obviously, a nuisance if it happens when the light is just right.  But it was never fixed, because it only happened now and again and people just swore and reached for the screwdriver. 

Now people threaten to move to Canon because the sequence of items in Nikon's control menus is not right. 

[ArendV]

Michael, I think everybody wishes you results with the Hasselbald X1D you are hoping for, once it is there.

You may continue to use your D810, but by having a title "Goodbye Full-Frame Cameras" you certainly suggested something different, also in the way you were initially complaining on the shortcomings of the D810.
And there are some questionmarks on what the D810 cannot do for your current and future photography, also knowing now that you are not printing.
On another forum you get exactly the same questions https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4060622 so maybe it is not only some of us here that are puzzled by your choices.

But again enjoy the Hassy !

[Michael Erlewine]

On another forum you get exactly the same questions

Exactly. I find that the response was the same everywhere. As for the title, it was not so much me I was referring to, but a sea-change in cameras that I believe is now taking place. The MF DSLR is at hand was what I meant. I feel it will be coming more quickly than we imagine.

[Les Olson]

I find this thread incredible, a mix of wishes, opinions, fear, and loathing. It shows me how emotional this topic is for many of us. [...]

I am going beyond the limitations of FF toward a bigger sensor, one with larger photosites. [...] 

As I keep mentioning, I want to travel and travel light. I would like a small rather inconspicuous camera and a few basic (but good) smallish lenses to haul around. I also would like a 50 Mpx sensor with good color. I don’t care about the central lens-shutter or the 1/2000 second flash synch. I like the color and quality that the Sony 50 Mpx sensor offers in the various MF cameras, in particular in Hasselblad’s implementation. I like the look and size of the X1D, and will probably like the haptics, although I have yet to actually touch one. 
[...]
But yes, I believe (at least for me) this is a watershed moment. I can see that in a few years, where today I use FF DSLRs, I will be using MF DSLRs, especially if I can adapt F-Mount lenses to them. As for those who feel compelled to claim that FF can do anything that MF can (and better), please... give me a break.

You are right about the dominance of emotional reactions.  The trouble is, they are on your side: you write "I like the look and size of the X1D, and will probably like the haptics, although I have yet to actually touch one" and then accuse other people of offering "wishes [and] opinions" and of being "emotional"? 

You want larger photosites.  You have not given any coherent reason why, but that is fine.  However, the X1D has 5.3 micron photosites - bigger, it is true, than the D810, but smaller than the D5 (6.45 micros) or the D4/Df (7.3 microns).  So saying that you have to go to a bigger sensor to get bigger photosites is just not true. 

But you want the 50MP.  You have not said why - and that is fine, too - except that you don't want 50MP to print bigger, because you never print.  So what reason can there be to want 50MP?  To crop heavily?  Not for portraits, or for landscape when the widest lens you have is 24mm equivalent.  All we have left are vague gestures towards "good colour" and "quality"; are they not "opinions"?

You say you want a light, compact camera for travel.  Don't we all?  Well, the X1D with the 45mm weighs just over 1100g - the same as any number of cameras with one lens, including, eg, the Df - with the larger photosites you want - plus the 35/1.8.  Adding the 90mm and the 30mm adds a tick under 1200g, compared to just over 700g for the Nikon 24/1.8 plus the 85/1.8.  And 50MP is an odd choice for a travel camera, because travel is when it is hardest to produce the meticulous focusing and hand-holding technique you need to justify 50MP.   

It is absolutely and totally your business if you want to pay the asking price of the X1D.  You do not have to give reasons.  But you did give reasons, and you invited responses to them.  It is just bullying to react to the responses by accusing people of being motivated by "fear and loathing", or of "feel[ing] compelled" to point out that these "limitations of FF" you talk about are imaginary, and just sneering to demand "give me a break".   

[Michael Erlewine]

Les Olson: To me it seems you look everywhere but where I point. No matter how clearly I put it, you insist that it is unclear. If we were just talking, I believe you would understand what I have stated here. If that is how you see what I write, so be it. I have done my best to communicate. More than that I cannot do.

[Les Olson]

Les Olson: To me it seems you look everywhere but where I point. No matter how clearly I put it, you insist that it is unclear. If we were just talking, I believe you would understand what I have stated here. If that is how you see what I write, so be it. I have done my best to communicate. More than that I cannot do.

On the contrary: it is perfectly clear, and I believe I understand it perfectly well.  That, however, is your business.  But it is everyone's business that on a site of record you are promoting your fancy that the X1D is the answer to the "limitations" of 36 x 24 sensor SLRs and the harbinger of a medium format mirrorless future for reasons that are in some cases wrong, in others irrelevant, and in others again mere emotional gesturing.

And you can do more: not accuse people who point out that your reasons are in some cases wrong, etc, of being emotional and driven by fear and loathing.