Author Topic: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview  (Read 1584 times)

chambeshi

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Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2021, 16:13:00 »
Modern cameras for the Pro tier pack in an ever richer range of features, and the individual owner may well not use many of the options on offer/under the hood. But Nikon cannot afford to splice a Z9 into 2 or more niche models, even though it would be useful to have say a 24mp and 45mp versions of a D6/Z9 for example, with the obvious differences in DR and NR etc.

The interview above with the evidence across the ILC market confirms video is a growth area. This is where Nikon is seen to be behind Canon and Sony, also Panasonic - despite reviewers confirming the Z I and II series excel at video. Eve though not every all of us shoot videos let alone need 8K, the market pressure demands this specification. Nikon also has orientated key features of its Z lenses to support videography - including quieter AFP motors and minimizing focus-breathing etc.

I too look forward to the inevitable advances the MILC design space makes possible ie "high performance" silent shooting and even better a global shutter - vital when it's needed.

Back to the topic of the new (upcoming) camera, it's nice to see Nikon finally use a stacked sensor as this can make silent shutter usable in most situations. However, it's unfortunate that it should have to be in an apparently 8K-capable camera as this "do everything in one camera" mentality can lead to a high price (like the D3X, maybe even higher). I would hope that less expensive, Z6-class cameras would get the silent shutter with fast read time with 24 MP as soon as possible. I get the idea that the wealthy are first relieved of their money and then the features progress to less expensive and more common models, but is the fast readout sensor more difficult to get good yield from, or is it just opportunistic pricing ("since this feature is so desirable, we put it only in high price ticket cameras")?

I really don't need 20 or 30 fps, or 8K video, but I would like to have silent shutter with fast read time so I can photograph in silence, when the situation requires. Right now the issue is that I frequently would want to do that in lighting that flickers and I don't want to have to choose frames where the subject didn't happen to move quickly; I'd rather be able to rely that the movement doesn't distort the geometry.
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MILLIREHM

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Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2021, 23:38:31 »
Thanks for the link

There are lots of words in this interview but actually little is said. Personally I consider this statemant somewhat too much proud of himself and arrogant - and symptomatic for the (imho) management- driven problems Nikon evidently has. Currently they are not the leaders but those that need to keep pace, so the contrast should not be that high.

Of course an  advanced FTZ adapter does not need highest priority but as it can be done it should be done and it does not require "rocket science"
(want to use the two DCs, the  85/1,4 and the 70-180  with AF eventually)

Good that the Z9 will have a stacked CMOS sensor (to which extent this is a Sony- Sensor or howmuch Nikon development or tuning this will have faced - we will see)
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2021, 13:34:23 »
There are lots of words in this interview but actually little is said.

I don't know - it is understandable that Nikon won't go into more detail about actual products, but their interpretation of what is going on in the market is "good to know". To motivate someone like me who considers the EVF an abomination to purchase a Z camera and lenses, silent photography with no artifact would do the trick, and this is pretty much implied when talking about a stacked sensor.

It's also useful information to know that their focus is now in launching a high-end product. I might want something less expensive with the distortion-free silent shutter but at least it's an improvement that they make a camera with this feature, as it gives hope that they might offer it at a lower price point later on.

Quote
Personally I consider this statemant somewhat too much proud of himself and arrogant - and symptomatic for the (imho) management- driven problems Nikon evidently has. Currently they are not the leaders but those that need to keep pace, so the contrast should not be that high.

It took me a while to understand what you meant by contrast, but I'm guessing that you mean the contrast between Nikon's message and how their products are widely perceived online.

A Nikon employee who is chosen to discuss Nikon's near-future strategy with a journalist is going to be someone who can do it with an upbeat tone. 

I think a lot of what they say is true, there is a trend towards greater importance of video and it's good that they have been preparing for that at the system level.  Lensrentals investigated Z cameras and found their environmental shielding top notch. So in this respect I don't think the message is wrong in talking about how the cameras are used in extreme environments.

Quote
Good that the Z9 will have a stacked CMOS sensor (to which extent this is a Sony- Sensor or howmuch Nikon development or tuning this will have faced - we will see)

Likely this is something we will never know without taking the camera apart and investigating the chip (and its peers) with a microscope, since the details of the sensor design are not public knowledge and I doubt they would be published any time soon (of course, there could eventually be a similar account as Nikon have made for lenses in the one Thousand and One Nights tales describing the history of sensors in Nikon cameras). I don't share the fascination with the origins of the sensors unless it is for some ethical reason (different countries may have different environmental or labour protection laws; there was recently a fire in a Japanese semiconductor factory and I hope the employees didn't get health problems from the event). For the user what is interesting is how the camera performs and how much it will cost. I wouldn't know the sensor or processor or grip designers personally anyway, so the names (or their employer's name) would have no meaning to me. Everyone seems to have their own beliefs on the sensor design  topic and yet almost no real information is publicly available. It seems likely that Nikon are currently more limited by the processors than the sensors that they use; why does no one talk about where Nikon could get faster processors?  Canon manage to sell a very large number of R5 and R6 cameras (and their customers seem extremely happy with the AF, for example) and this was achieved without having a stacked sensor so there are other components in play that have a great deal of importance to overall system performance and where Nikon could achieve an improvement.

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2021, 15:11:51 »

Likely this is something we will never know without taking the camera apart and investigating the chip (and its peers) with a microscope, since the details of the sensor design are not public knowledge and I doubt they would be published any time soon (of course, there could eventually be a similar account as Nikon have made for lenses in the one Thousand and One Nights tales describing the history of sensors in Nikon cameras). I don't share the fascination with the origins of the sensors unless it is for some ethical reason (different countries may have different environmental or labour protection laws; there was recently a fire in a Japanese semiconductor factory and I hope the employees didn't get health problems from the event). For the user what is interesting is how the camera performs and how much it will cost. I wouldn't know the sensor or processor or grip designers personally anyway, so the names (or their employer's name) would have no meaning to me. Everyone seems to have their own beliefs on the sensor design  topic and yet almost no real information is publicly available. It seems likely that Nikon are currently more limited by the processors than the sensors that they use; why does no one talk about where Nikon could get faster processors?  Canon manage to sell a very large number of R5 and R6 cameras (and their customers seem extremely happy with the AF, for example) and this was achieved without having a stacked sensor so there are other components in play that have a great deal of importance to overall system performance and where Nikon could achieve an improvement.

I've spent a couple of decades in the semiconductor industry at Intel (owns their fabs) and NVIDIA (fabless) and what Ilkka points out is true. The camera operates as a system and it does not matter so much who made the components. What is important is the performance and reliability. In fact, these days Intel is learning that having your own fabs is great if they are the best in the world, but not so great if they are second best (or third...). Having a choice of suppliers is important as you can choose the best available and not be too locked in.

Erik Lund

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Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2021, 23:16:02 »
Very true! I would add;
Having the key Patents to protect the important design features is very important as well. Specially if you want to outsource or do licensing.
Erik Lund

chambeshi

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Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2021, 10:20:17 »
At some risk of diverting this thread into rather pointless discussion about who makes what sensor, it is clear that Nikon has many sensor patents of its own. They have licensed some to other companies in Japan apparently, and also licence those they need. The bottom line is there is considerable collaboration with IP's between these Japanese companies as well as others eg Tower Semiconductor. And Nikon appear to rely primarily  on Sony's foundries for fabrication.

This also includes sensors for industrial applications. And in this respect, last month Nikon publicly announced a 1" stacked sensor with very high dynamic range.

Thom Hogan has commented on these aspects of camera sensors in a couple of his recent essays, based on his inside contacts among the engineers; and back in 2018 Dave Etchells of Imaging resource published a geeky interview with a director of Nikon's sensor design lab. This discussed interesting aspects of the R&D of the D5 sensor. As already pointed out, reliable details are sparse and murky.

fyi see links etc here https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1690364/4
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Birna Rørslett

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Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2021, 11:13:04 »
Cutting through the haze of speculatiions, I have pre-ordered the Z9. No more worries.

Fons Baerken

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Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2021, 11:18:22 »
Cutting through the haze of speculatiions, I have pre-ordered the Z9. No more worries.

This gonna cost ye big time Birna ;D

chambeshi

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chambeshi

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Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2021, 12:45:53 »
Interesting Nikon patent for sensor with 2 shutter systems - Rolling and Global

this excerpt.... https://asobinet.com/info-patent-nikon-global-shutter-for-af/

another https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/did-nikon-just-provide-a-z9.html

Action photography could be about to leap to the next level of performance, combining high IQ in large images and very fast and reliable AF:

link to the actual patent https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/p0200
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