NikonGear

Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: chambeshi on March 05, 2021, 16:53:06

Title: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: chambeshi on March 05, 2021, 16:53:06
https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/9636338352/interview-nikon-a-flagship-nikon-z-series-mirrorless-camera-can-be-expected-within-the-year
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 05, 2021, 18:17:38
https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/9636338352/interview-nikon-a-flagship-nikon-z-series-mirrorless-camera-can-be-expected-within-the-year

Notice how Nikon dismiss the request for adapted support for screwdriver lenses. I am not suggesting this is the most important feature to have but the size and weight argument is difficult to justify when Sony have made that type of adapter (LA-EA5) and it's 88 g and has no bulge. Nikon's FTZ is 133 g and has no AF motor. Something to think about.

However, I was unable to find detailed compatibility information on the Sony adapter; user reviews give a 1.8 star average (only two reviews) claiming lack of AF with A9, A7C and A7 III while working with A7R IV. So it's not at all clear what the real functionality of the adapter is and what are the limitations (user error or real incompatibility). Nonetheless they have shown it can be done.
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: MEPER on March 05, 2021, 21:58:13
Yes, it is a shame with the screwdriver AF lens adapter......maybe a 3. party can make one......
If Nikon made one it would not need to be just one adapter. They could keep the current and just make a new that also supported the screwdriver AF.
But after all good that the Z-cameras AF-points gets green when focus is spot-on when these lenses are used with manual focus.
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: John Geerts on March 06, 2021, 14:37:55
Nice interview.

I wonder, now the focus is on smaller affordable lenses, but where are the f/1.4 lenses in the Z mount? 
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Erik Lund on March 06, 2021, 16:06:17
Nice interview.

I wonder, now the focus is on smaller affordable lenses, but where are the f/1.4 lenses in the Z mount?
With f/1.4 the AF needs to be much more precise than with the f/1.8 lenses, same issue on DSLR but there the AF is slowed down in speed.  The fast lenses will come when Nikon masters the AF on mirrorless better
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Erik Lund on March 06, 2021, 16:07:45
https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/9636338352/interview-nikon-a-flagship-nikon-z-series-mirrorless-camera-can-be-expected-within-the-year (https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/9636338352/interview-nikon-a-flagship-nikon-z-series-mirrorless-camera-can-be-expected-within-the-year)
Just saw it on Nikon rumors as well, Maybe I trade up my Z7 if it's indeed a similar high resolution sensor, we will see.
THX for sharing
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 06, 2021, 19:10:19
Nice interview.

I wonder, now the focus is on smaller affordable lenses, but where are the f/1.4 lenses in the Z mount?

It seems that there will be an f/1.2 series instead of f/1.4.
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: John Geerts on March 06, 2021, 19:14:18
With f/1.4 the AF needs to be much more precise than with the f/1.8 lenses, same issue on DSLR but there the AF is slowed down in speed.  The fast lenses will come when Nikon masters the AF on mirrorless better
Thanks for the explanation, Erik.  So the 50/1.2S is just an exception  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: John Geerts on March 06, 2021, 19:15:12
It seems that there will be an f/1.2 series instead of f/1.4.
Oh? That will be a pretty expensive joke, not?
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 06, 2021, 19:40:51
Oh? That will be a pretty expensive joke, not?

Nikon have been saying for a number of years now that they want to focus on the high end. The Z mount makes it possible to design faster lenses than they could do in F mount. They have even mentioned making lenses faster than f/0.95. Of course it could be just (marketing) talk. The customers ultimately decide which products are successful, but Nikon do like to stretch boundaries.

Overall, the Z lens lineup is initially focused more on the practical than the exotic. But once Nikon get back on their feet, I suspect the latter will take up more prominence in the lineup.

Personally I like the practical approach.

Canon also have f/2, f/1.8 and f/1.2 primes in their mirrorless RF lineup but no f/1.4.
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: John Geerts on March 06, 2021, 20:18:56
Thanks Ilkka.  That makes sense.  I saw the 85/1.2 S is rumoured but not yet confirmed.
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: chambeshi on March 07, 2021, 08:45:50
fyi - some cynicism true to form!

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/upon-reflection.html   

And I find Thom partially correct including on improving the specs of the Z II and definitely including the missing features he describes, which handicap using these cameras as efficiently as a D500 or D850. Even better will be a "Z8" that's a more affordable prosumer Z9 built on the stacking sensor with Z9 AF, but less bleeding edge features.

As for the estimated market for a FTZd adapter (ie many hobbyists who cannot/are reluctant to buy new Z lenses, especially as they derive profound pleasure using stalwart Classics eg 85 f1.4AFD, 28-105 AFD etc. THese perform very very well on a Z50 and Z6... albeit handicapped to only MF

As for AF accuracy the hard facts are the D850 - most pertinently - the D780 with its Z6 sensor - focuses AFD lenses perfectly including 70-180 AFD and the fickle 85 f1.4AFD - Thom slipped up on the 2nd part

The bottom line is the demand for a FTZd is substantial and will sell more new Z cameras. And an accessory, which those with a brand new Z optics can ignore exists  ;D ;D

Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Hugh_3170 on March 07, 2021, 08:51:10
I strongly agree.

Let us hope that Nikon will eventually come to the party or that a third party provider will come to the rescue.

I am also one of those that bought AFD glass in good faith.

..........................................................................................rt

The bottom line is the demand for a FTZd is substantial and will sell more new Z cameras. And an accessory that those with money for new glass can ignore
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 07, 2021, 10:51:54
Back to the topic of the new (upcoming) camera, it's nice to see Nikon finally use a stacked sensor as this can make silent shutter usable in most situations. However, it's unfortunate that it should have to be in an apparently 8K-capable camera as this "do everything in one camera" mentality can lead to a high price (like the D3X, maybe even higher). I would hope that less expensive, Z6-class cameras would get the silent shutter with fast read time with 24 MP as soon as possible. I get the idea that the wealthy are first relieved of their money and then the features progress to less expensive and more common models, but is the fast readout sensor more difficult to get good yield from, or is it just opportunistic pricing ("since this feature is so desirable, we put it only in high price ticket cameras")?

I really don't need 20 or 30 fps, or 8K video, but I would like to have silent shutter with fast read time so I can photograph in silence, when the situation requires. Right now the issue is that I frequently would want to do that in lighting that flickers and I don't want to have to choose frames where the subject didn't happen to move quickly; I'd rather be able to rely that the movement doesn't distort the geometry.
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Nasos Kosmas on March 07, 2021, 14:34:38
I'd rather be able to rely that the movement doesn't distort the geometry.
I  use silent shutter on my Z50 and yes the movement  distort the geometry, you can see it in multiple exposures of the same subject
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: chambeshi on March 07, 2021, 16:13:00
Modern cameras for the Pro tier pack in an ever richer range of features, and the individual owner may well not use many of the options on offer/under the hood. But Nikon cannot afford to splice a Z9 into 2 or more niche models, even though it would be useful to have say a 24mp and 45mp versions of a D6/Z9 for example, with the obvious differences in DR and NR etc.

The interview above with the evidence across the ILC market confirms video is a growth area. This is where Nikon is seen to be behind Canon and Sony, also Panasonic - despite reviewers confirming the Z I and II series excel at video. Eve though not every all of us shoot videos let alone need 8K, the market pressure demands this specification. Nikon also has orientated key features of its Z lenses to support videography - including quieter AFP motors and minimizing focus-breathing etc.

I too look forward to the inevitable advances the MILC design space makes possible ie "high performance" silent shooting and even better a global shutter - vital when it's needed.

Back to the topic of the new (upcoming) camera, it's nice to see Nikon finally use a stacked sensor as this can make silent shutter usable in most situations. However, it's unfortunate that it should have to be in an apparently 8K-capable camera as this "do everything in one camera" mentality can lead to a high price (like the D3X, maybe even higher). I would hope that less expensive, Z6-class cameras would get the silent shutter with fast read time with 24 MP as soon as possible. I get the idea that the wealthy are first relieved of their money and then the features progress to less expensive and more common models, but is the fast readout sensor more difficult to get good yield from, or is it just opportunistic pricing ("since this feature is so desirable, we put it only in high price ticket cameras")?

I really don't need 20 or 30 fps, or 8K video, but I would like to have silent shutter with fast read time so I can photograph in silence, when the situation requires. Right now the issue is that I frequently would want to do that in lighting that flickers and I don't want to have to choose frames where the subject didn't happen to move quickly; I'd rather be able to rely that the movement doesn't distort the geometry.
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: MILLIREHM on March 07, 2021, 23:38:31
Thanks for the link

There are lots of words in this interview but actually little is said. Personally I consider this statemant somewhat too much proud of himself and arrogant - and symptomatic for the (imho) management- driven problems Nikon evidently has. Currently they are not the leaders but those that need to keep pace, so the contrast should not be that high.

Of course an  advanced FTZ adapter does not need highest priority but as it can be done it should be done and it does not require "rocket science"
(want to use the two DCs, the  85/1,4 and the 70-180  with AF eventually)

Good that the Z9 will have a stacked CMOS sensor (to which extent this is a Sony- Sensor or howmuch Nikon development or tuning this will have faced - we will see)
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on March 08, 2021, 13:34:23
There are lots of words in this interview but actually little is said.

I don't know - it is understandable that Nikon won't go into more detail about actual products, but their interpretation of what is going on in the market is "good to know". To motivate someone like me who considers the EVF an abomination to purchase a Z camera and lenses, silent photography with no artifact would do the trick, and this is pretty much implied when talking about a stacked sensor.

It's also useful information to know that their focus is now in launching a high-end product. I might want something less expensive with the distortion-free silent shutter but at least it's an improvement that they make a camera with this feature, as it gives hope that they might offer it at a lower price point later on.

Quote
Personally I consider this statemant somewhat too much proud of himself and arrogant - and symptomatic for the (imho) management- driven problems Nikon evidently has. Currently they are not the leaders but those that need to keep pace, so the contrast should not be that high.

It took me a while to understand what you meant by contrast, but I'm guessing that you mean the contrast between Nikon's message and how their products are widely perceived online.

A Nikon employee who is chosen to discuss Nikon's near-future strategy with a journalist is going to be someone who can do it with an upbeat tone. 

I think a lot of what they say is true, there is a trend towards greater importance of video and it's good that they have been preparing for that at the system level.  Lensrentals investigated Z cameras and found their environmental shielding top notch. So in this respect I don't think the message is wrong in talking about how the cameras are used in extreme environments.

Quote
Good that the Z9 will have a stacked CMOS sensor (to which extent this is a Sony- Sensor or howmuch Nikon development or tuning this will have faced - we will see)

Likely this is something we will never know without taking the camera apart and investigating the chip (and its peers) with a microscope, since the details of the sensor design are not public knowledge and I doubt they would be published any time soon (of course, there could eventually be a similar account as Nikon have made for lenses in the one Thousand and One Nights tales describing the history of sensors in Nikon cameras). I don't share the fascination with the origins of the sensors unless it is for some ethical reason (different countries may have different environmental or labour protection laws; there was recently a fire in a Japanese semiconductor factory and I hope the employees didn't get health problems from the event). For the user what is interesting is how the camera performs and how much it will cost. I wouldn't know the sensor or processor or grip designers personally anyway, so the names (or their employer's name) would have no meaning to me. Everyone seems to have their own beliefs on the sensor design  topic and yet almost no real information is publicly available. It seems likely that Nikon are currently more limited by the processors than the sensors that they use; why does no one talk about where Nikon could get faster processors?  Canon manage to sell a very large number of R5 and R6 cameras (and their customers seem extremely happy with the AF, for example) and this was achieved without having a stacked sensor so there are other components in play that have a great deal of importance to overall system performance and where Nikon could achieve an improvement.
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on March 08, 2021, 15:11:51

Likely this is something we will never know without taking the camera apart and investigating the chip (and its peers) with a microscope, since the details of the sensor design are not public knowledge and I doubt they would be published any time soon (of course, there could eventually be a similar account as Nikon have made for lenses in the one Thousand and One Nights tales describing the history of sensors in Nikon cameras). I don't share the fascination with the origins of the sensors unless it is for some ethical reason (different countries may have different environmental or labour protection laws; there was recently a fire in a Japanese semiconductor factory and I hope the employees didn't get health problems from the event). For the user what is interesting is how the camera performs and how much it will cost. I wouldn't know the sensor or processor or grip designers personally anyway, so the names (or their employer's name) would have no meaning to me. Everyone seems to have their own beliefs on the sensor design  topic and yet almost no real information is publicly available. It seems likely that Nikon are currently more limited by the processors than the sensors that they use; why does no one talk about where Nikon could get faster processors?  Canon manage to sell a very large number of R5 and R6 cameras (and their customers seem extremely happy with the AF, for example) and this was achieved without having a stacked sensor so there are other components in play that have a great deal of importance to overall system performance and where Nikon could achieve an improvement.

I've spent a couple of decades in the semiconductor industry at Intel (owns their fabs) and NVIDIA (fabless) and what Ilkka points out is true. The camera operates as a system and it does not matter so much who made the components. What is important is the performance and reliability. In fact, these days Intel is learning that having your own fabs is great if they are the best in the world, but not so great if they are second best (or third...). Having a choice of suppliers is important as you can choose the best available and not be too locked in.
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Erik Lund on March 08, 2021, 23:16:02
Very true! I would add;
Having the key Patents to protect the important design features is very important as well. Specially if you want to outsource or do licensing.
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: chambeshi on March 09, 2021, 10:20:17
At some risk of diverting this thread into rather pointless discussion about who makes what sensor, it is clear that Nikon has many sensor patents of its own. They have licensed some to other companies in Japan apparently, and also licence those they need. The bottom line is there is considerable collaboration with IP's between these Japanese companies as well as others eg Tower Semiconductor. And Nikon appear to rely primarily  on Sony's foundries for fabrication.

This also includes sensors for industrial applications. And in this respect, last month Nikon publicly announced a 1" stacked sensor with very high dynamic range.

Thom Hogan has commented on these aspects of camera sensors in a couple of his recent essays, based on his inside contacts among the engineers; and back in 2018 Dave Etchells of Imaging resource published a geeky interview with a director of Nikon's sensor design lab. This discussed interesting aspects of the R&D of the D5 sensor. As already pointed out, reliable details are sparse and murky.

fyi see links etc here https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1690364/4
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Birna Rørslett on March 14, 2021, 11:13:04
Cutting through the haze of speculatiions, I have pre-ordered the Z9. No more worries.
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: Fons Baerken on March 14, 2021, 11:18:22
Cutting through the haze of speculatiions, I have pre-ordered the Z9. No more worries.

This gonna cost ye big time Birna ;D
Title: Re: Nikon Z Flagship pending - Candid Interview
Post by: chambeshi on April 03, 2021, 12:19:44
Published 2nd April  ;) ;)

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/what-the-z9-needs-to-satisf.html