Author Topic: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics  (Read 2786 times)

Erik Lund

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Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« on: October 01, 2019, 08:55:17 »

Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics


Really interesting article on optical design from Nikon:
https://www.nikon.com/about/technology/stories/1909_optia/?fbclid=IwAR27FEIm9DtlN-XIQiQC98LYDpp-7Zh8jmV8sFsw3aQehfzRIJnryEu6S4I


Give insights into the Nikkor lens development since 2013 ;) Enjoy!
Erik Lund

Bent Hjarbo

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2019, 09:30:30 »
Interesting, thanks for sharing  :)

Fons Baerken

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2019, 11:02:24 »
That 35/1.8s image looks nice!

Thomas Stellwag

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2019, 12:00:29 »
thx for sharing
Thomas Stellwag

Frank Fremerey

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2019, 13:33:53 »
That 35/1.8s image looks nice!

according to the page it is the 1.8/35G ED, not the 1.8/35S
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Frank Fremerey

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2019, 13:37:05 »
Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics


Really interesting article on optical design from Nikon:
https://www.nikon.com/about/technology/stories/1909_optia/?fbclid=IwAR27FEIm9DtlN-XIQiQC98LYDpp-7Zh8jmV8sFsw3aQehfzRIJnryEu6S4I


Give insights into the Nikkor lens development since 2013 ;) Enjoy!

I own and use regulatly three of the four lenses on the page you linked, thank you for that.

Yet, the 1.8/35G ED did not grow on me as the others did. I should have it lab tested by NPS and then go with it through the rough.
You are out there. You and your camera. You can shoot or not shoot as you please. Discover the world, Your world. Show it to us. Or we might never see it.

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Fons Baerken

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2019, 15:02:39 »
according to the page it is the 1.8/35G ED, not the 1.8/35S

 :o

They should have used the 35s

Akira

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2019, 15:09:15 »
Erik, thank you for sharing.

I loved the AF-S 35/1.8 ED on my D7000.  Unfortunately, the AF of D7000 was not good enough.  The lens should perform admirably on D500.

O, PITA seems to be an appropriate name for the method to represent the painstaking effort of the engineers.
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F4Jay

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what Bokeh? Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2019, 01:53:28 »
Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics

Really interesting article on optical design from Nikon:
https://www.nikon.com/about/technology/stories/1909_optia/?fbclid=IwAR27FEIm9DtlN-XIQiQC98LYDpp-7Zh8jmV8sFsw3aQehfzRIJnryEu6S4I

Give insights into the Nikkor lens development since 2013 ;) Enjoy!

Note that whoever wrote that didn't even bother explaining what the "Nikon meaning" of the word 'bokeh' is, a word that's as much misused as misunderstood.  :-\ Nice article though, but a bit too much "Bokeh" to my taste. "Bokeh" is the magic buzzword again, it's as popular in marketing now as the word "hifi" was in the late fifties (you could even buy "Hifi" lipstick from Max Factor!). Earlier this month Mike Johnston ("The Online Photographer"), the man responsible for adding the "h" to the Japanese word "Boke" that was severely mispronounced by Mike's barbaric compatriots, wrote a nice post explaining "what is bokeh":

https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2019/11/what-is-bokeh-and-the-dogs-nose.html

I had to laugh when I read his response on one of the comments where an article of Zeiss (check it out
https://lenspire.zeiss.com/photo/app/uploads/2018/04/Article-Bokeh-2010-EN.pdf
if you're not afraid of reading about optics, it's really nice!) was mentioned:

quote:
"
marcin wuu: "There's a great read about bokeh and depth of field on Zeiss's website. Easy to understand yet scientifically sound, the best kind of article you can imagine. Funny thing about what's good and what isn't in the context of animal photography—as a cat person and shallow d-o-f fanatic, I suffer greatly because it's so much harder to put cat's nose out of focus with modern tiny sensor cameras—a cat's muzzle is way shorter than a dog's."

Mike replies: An excellent paper...I assume, as much of it is well beyond my own expertise! I particularly liked the sentence, on page 26, "The most important and clearest attribute of blurring is simply the amount of it." True dat.

The paper is a bit ironic for me however. In 1997 I had access to Zeiss's spokesperson. I can't come up with his name just now (my aging brain!) but he was quite an enthusiast (a resolution fanatic) and very intelligent, and perhaps a bit imperious as well. When I asked about Zeiss's position on the issue of "bokeh" (explaining what it meant), he reported back that he had inquired of Zeiss's lens designers but was met with perplexity. Apparently no one then at Zeiss had the habit of considering how the out-of-focus areas were visually rendered in pictures. I was told some version of the same thing we heard all over: you are supposed to look at the stuff that's in focus, not the stuff that's out of focus. Which is fair enough.

By the way, since then, I think Zeiss is one of the companies that has used the word "bokeh" in its advertising, if I'm not mistaken.

"

So apparently in 1997 nobody at Zeiss paid attention to what happened in the out of focus area? Hilarious! But it explains a lot, especially my own experience with Zeiss lenses. I used and use Zeiss lenses on my Hasselblad (V) and I've also used Zeiss on Contax. Even my old Rolleiflex 2.8 had a Zeiss Planar lens. With the medium format Zeiss lenses I was quite happy (beautiful and smooth  :) gradation and tonal scale (which is of course normal for medium format lenses, they are not tuned for maximum contrast and acuity like 35mm lenses!), beautiful textures and micro contrast). But with the Contax 50mm f/1.4 AE I was  not too happy though, it showed too much imbalance in character which turned it into an almost "psychopatic"  ;) lens. Simply too much difference between the center and edges in sharpness (but beautiful microcontrast in the center from f/4 onwards), which is typical for Zeiss on Contax (fortunately Nikon and also Leica pay a lot of attention to the edges too!), but, worst of all, I really didn't like the way some of the Contax lenses painted the background: too restless  :'( to my taste, even ugly >:(! Here I preferred the Nikkor 50mm f/1.4 Ais, not to mention the current 50mm AF-S that paints very beautifully, much better than the other two. But I dislike the axial chromatic aberration in all of these lenses. These days I prefer Sigma ART lenses like the 135mm f/1.8 and 50mm f/1.4 to anything Nikon produced in that focal length, if you've used these lenses on a D800E/D810/D850 you can only be amazed, almost looks like medium format Zeiss, impressive sharpness and microcontrast, even wide open, but better background smoothness.

Please note that Nikon in the above mentioned article seems to admit or suggest implicitly that they didn't pay much attention :D to 3D expression before:

quote:
"
Recently, Nikon has been pursuing natural three-dimensional expression. Putting an emphasis on a perfectly smooth transition of bokeh from the focused area, Nikon is developing lenses that bring a sense of three-dimensionality to the two-dimensional world of photography.
"

"
That changed when Nikon developed lens evaluation methods that can measure various characteristics, including aberrations. Since these were introduced in 2013, it has become possible to develop lenses that fulfill the designers' intentions over a much shorter period of time.
"

Sorry, but that's too much marketing BS.  :P Of course they paid attention to this before, read the Thousand And One Nights stories on the Nikon website, many excellent lens designs are proof of that. My favourite portrait classic (yes, that one!) immediately comes to mind, and some of the pro zoom lenses (but not the first 24-70 version, after trying that one I was very happy to stick with my (1999) AF-S 28-70 f/2.8!). The only thing they are trying to say is that they put more focus on beautiful backgrounds now and perhaps smooth textures. Well, I completely agree with that. The lenses they mention in the story are in many ways really nice! If only they paid as much attention to the axial (and lateral) chromatic aberration...


chambeshi

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2019, 10:53:50 »
Interesting background about Zeiss, thanks.
Nikon has been taking "3D rendering" seriously since before 2013. At least outside the company Haruo Sato has been one of the most vocal publicists of this subject. I first read about this in interviews with Sato in the commemorative Eyes of Nikon (2014)

There are 2 threads here at least in which OPTIA has been discussed

https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=4593.msg72196#msg72196

https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=7079.0
There are several threads in LensTalk about the 58 f1.4G aka Neo-Noct and its relatives: including

https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=6541.0
https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=3354.msg48179#msg48179

#chambeshiphoto
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chambeshi

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2019, 10:59:08 »
a lost essay at the time of release of the Neo-Noct - translates out of the japanese. I seem to recall this was formerly here http://www.nikkor.com/technology/02.html

Whatever is the webdesign 'service' must work for Sony as they excel at breaking links on Nikon's websites

https://www.nikon-image.com/enjoy/life/works/2013/1310/index.html
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RobOK

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2019, 23:07:51 »
Do we think those are the only lenses using that technique, or those are just four amazing lenses they wanted to showcase in the article?

Erik Lund

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2019, 08:42:09 »
Do we think those are the only lenses using that technique, or those are just four amazing lenses they wanted to showcase in the article?

Quote from the article:
Examples of lenses created with OPTIA -  The following lenses were developed using OPTIA and the image simulator, and are shown together with images representing their characteristics.

My guess would also be that they use this OPTIA to have an educated guess - Then it's a matter of price point, size aperture etc. for the particular lens how much they tweak the design.
Erik Lund

chambeshi

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2020, 09:52:14 »
Here is some interesting context on the technical aspects of optical performance of the Z-Nikkors. It confirms Nikon must have been working on Z optics for some years already (ie before Z Day August 2018). This is besides leveraging on knowledge and designs first presented in F-Nikkors. Their engineering division(s) must have been planning this for the long term. And the planning is paying off, as roll out of the Z-map is on target.
Here's a summary of a recent interview by Thom Hogan - based on translated interview:

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/a-nikkor-z-lens-design.html

These latest insights were published a few days ago from an interview with Nikon R&D via Nikon China. It confirms what's been intimated/suspected/confirmed over several years. Nikon has a tradition of secrecy on the deeper matters; but in detailed interviews in 2013, Haruo Sato and others revealed some interesting aspects of the ideas and testing that led to the 58 f1.4G. It relied centrally on Nikon's development of image simulation software using their new OPTIA instrument [links above in this thread and 2 others]

https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=4593.msg72196#msg72196

and here also wrt Neo-Noct aka the 58 f1.4G https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=6541.msg117458#msg117458

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D850, D780, 20 f4 AI 28 f2.8AIS 45 f2.8AIP 55mm 2.8AIS+60 f2.8G Micro 58 f1.4G, 85 f1.4D, 400 f2.8E VRII 300 f4E PF 500 f5.6E PF, 70-180 Micro f4-5.6D 70-200 f2.8E FL, Zeiss Distagons -15 f2.8, 21 f2.8

Erik Lund

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Re: Nikon; Analyzing NIKKOR lens characteristics
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2020, 10:36:07 »
Thank you for the heads up, I have only used the 50mm 1.8 Z on Z7 briefly but I'm very impressed!
Erik Lund