Author Topic: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)  (Read 44472 times)

Erik Lund

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #150 on: July 31, 2018, 10:22:04 »
Yes that would be the next step, especially for the full frame fisheye images  ;)  if they designed a lens that would use it's full potential - Wow - Makes me miss the 6mm f/2.8 even though one actually crop away a huge amount of pixels on FX,,,
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #151 on: July 31, 2018, 11:00:40 »
If you're happy to absorb the cost of the larger sensor that is of course fine. Film could be relatively inexpensively cut into different sizes, but with digital, increasing the area of the sensor is much more expensive (in terms of relative cost). Of course, if you shot action with 6cm x 17cm film, that would get expensive quickly, so it depends on what you do with it.

The D850 does permit you to record 1:1 aspect ratio images (24mm x 24mm) by selecting the image area "1:1". 4K video is has an aspect ratio of 1.9:1, so today the camera manufacturers have to consider that as well.

The market for FX is in the hundreds of thousands of cameras per year. The medium format market is, as far as I know, a few thousand cameras per year. Thus the cost that the individual customer has to pay for medium format is very high.

I'm all for diversity, and I wouldn't mind at all if someone made a square sensor high resolution digital camera, but no one seems to dare to do that. I can only assume that this is a result of market research. Even the digital MF is typically 3:4 and not 1:1. I believe this is because photographers are happier switching between vertical and horizontal orientations than having to pay so much extra for sensor area that won't make it to the print. Of course, if a 33mm x44mm camera has a 1:1 crop mode then it would be perhaps easy enough to shoot in the way you prefer.

Erik Lund

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #152 on: July 31, 2018, 11:15:09 »
If I may comment on this, just as a heads up for Creativity over Numbers :) 
,,,,


More numbers doesn't count  8)
Erik Lund

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #153 on: July 31, 2018, 11:34:36 »

More numbers doesn't count  8)

If numbers don't matter then the D850's 1:1 mode should do everything you want. I'm sure Nikon can implement a similar feature in their new mirrorless camera.

Erik Lund

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #154 on: July 31, 2018, 11:52:30 »
If numbers don't matter then the D850's 1:1 mode should do everything you want. I'm sure Nikon can implement a similar feature in their new mirrorless camera.


Very true! ;) and that is how I use my D810


Except the viewfinder and rear display could be optimised for the square design.


OK - Sorry for side tracking the thread! Let's get back to the Z
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chambeshi

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #155 on: July 31, 2018, 13:24:18 »
Like several DSLR dependents I'm in two minds about the impending arrival of usable mirrorless. Based on what ML cameras I've handled, the absence of high quality EVF, IBIS and silent-shutter (in the Nikon ML) will stop any purchase. As keeps being stated, before I tick any of these boxes, F-mount compatibility has to be a winner - including with AFD Nikkors. Here I'm also confident - see links etc above that Nikon will deliver on a top quality Z-F adapter....but enough ink has already been split on this topic...

As  a wildlife shooter, having the through-the-lens usage with silent shutter is a major attraction. This will be a killer feature for photographing some species, where one strives always to avoid disturbing the subject. The reduced weight of ML is also attractive. The drop in weight from a gripped D850 or D500 to my Df sure is tangible. I'm confident Nikon will pull off a great job on the ergonomics of their new mirrorless, but I do hope they prune its gross mass.

OTH the D850 was the first DSLR to my knowledge to build in useful features standard on mirrorless: electronic shutter & silent shooting albeit in Lv only. One hears hybrid viewfinders in DSLRs are a possibility.  It is not impossible that future DSLRs will have IBIS, on-sensor PDAF - wonderful for MF glass. Plus higher FPS etc. The argument has already been made somewhere here on NG that among its many strengths, the D850 is the first in the line of "hybrid" DSRs. And Nikon hold the ace cards to develop such a hybrid ;)

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #156 on: July 31, 2018, 13:42:42 »
You can add an external display or EVF to a DSLR using the HDMI or USB port. These are available and are widely used for video. Two weeks ago when I was at Pori Jazz, I saw one Sony mirrorless camera with 70-200/2.8 Nikkor attached, and the videographer wasn't using the EVF; he had an external display mounted on the hot shoe and he was using that to monitor the footage. There was also a Red Dragon with EF 70-200/2.8, it seems adapted lenses are really common nowadays for video work.

A "hybrid" OVF/EVF would result in a reduced quality viewfinder and thus I would not be happy with such a contraption. The reason for the quality loss is that the EVF would be positioned at the front of the prism and thus the coatings would have to be removed to permit the light from the EVF to reach the ocular on the other side of the prism. Removal of the coatings would lead to loss of light when using the OVF.

A better solution is to have interchangeable viewfinder modules as was available earlier in 1-digit F series Nikons (until and including the F5). However, this also apparently results in some loss of viewfinder brightness;; according to Nikon this was the reason why the F6 was made without interchangeable viewfinders. I never owned an F6 but the F100 viewfinder was appreciably brighter than that of the F5. I suspect the focusing screen was a part of the reason; the F5 viewfinder was easy to manual focus with but the image was a bit dimmer.

I think it's better to just use mirrorless for those applications where mirrorless is advantageous and correspondingly for DSLRs. A hybrid isn't necessarily the "best of both worlds", it could be seen as the "worst of both worlds" depending on what the photographer values most. A hybrid camera with reduced viewfinder quality but increased weight (due to having the components for two viewfinders, only part of which would be shared) would not satisfy me. I would prefer to keep mirrorless mirrorless and DSLR DSLR, and if necessary, maintain two systems and choose depending on the requirements of the task. One of the main advantages of mirrorless is smaller size and lower weight, and perhaps the main advantage of DSLRs is the high-quality optical viewfinder. A hybrid camera would give neither of these benefits.

I totally understand the benefits of silent shooting and once the electronic shutter is fast enough to minimize rolling shutter, I will likely  be happy to purchase such a camera and lenses for applications that require silence, but it won't be my main camera due to the lack of OVF. I generally think of mirrorless ILC cameras as just one type of camera among others and  having this choice is important to users. But not necessarily in the same camera. Of course, if someone wants to make a hybrid camera they're welcome to do so, and then we can evaluate it on its merits and drawbacks.

richardHaw

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #157 on: July 31, 2018, 14:43:25 »
as much as I want to buy it i can't afford it :( just got the bill for my daughter's preschool and it's going to cost just as much  :o :o :o

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #158 on: July 31, 2018, 17:25:17 »
I have always liked square images and think a square sensor would be a good idea. We just need to keep in mind two practical limitations; current lenses (Except tilt/shift) will show some degree of vignette on a 36mm square sensor, and the costs for larger sensors do not scale linearly.

Preference for image aspect ratio is varied across the population, and some subjects are better suited for a more elongated rectangle.

With those considerations in mind, (optimizing for cost and lack of vignetting, while still pleasing most photographers) the optimal size sensor would end up pretty close to,where we are. A 36mm square sensor would be more costly and have worse performance in the corners. If we reduce the size so corners are good, then people who like traditional aspect ratios will complain that their sensor is smaller than it was before. I have no doubt that if all we had were square sensors, many people would be clamoring for a wide format.

With the abundance of pixels we have these days, maybe thinking will change, but I just don’t see square sensors making sense. Circular sensors are unlikely due to the way sensors are made.

chambeshi

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #159 on: July 31, 2018, 19:13:49 »
I have always liked square images and think a square sensor would be a good idea. We just need to keep in mind two practical limitations; current lenses (Except tilt/shift) will show some degree of vignette on a 36mm square sensor, and the costs for larger sensors do not scale linearly.

Preference for image aspect ratio is varied across the population, and some subjects are better suited for a more elongated rectangle.

With those considerations in mind, (optimizing for cost and lack of vignetting, while still pleasing most photographers) the optimal size sensor would end up pretty close to,where we are. A 36mm square sensor would be more costly and have worse performance in the corners. If we reduce the size so corners are good, then people who like traditional aspect ratios will complain that their sensor is smaller than it was before. I have no doubt that if all we had were square sensors, many people would be clamoring for a wide format.

With the abundance of pixels we have these days, maybe thinking will change, but I just don’t see square sensors making sense. Circular sensors are unlikely due to the way sensors are made.

There are rumours running rife the Nikon mirrorless camera may be MF. Obviously subject to confirmation, the Nikon's Z-Mount patent communicated by NR in January has an internal throat diameter of 49mm. This will house a FX 36 x 24 sensor = 43.3mm diagonal, and have the room for the lens shell and IBIS etc.
A 36 x 36 sensor has 50.9mm diagonal....

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #160 on: July 31, 2018, 19:28:36 »
Nikon stated in their announcement that the new mirrorlsss camera will be FX.

Rumor <> stuff people just make up in their heads. Obviously this talk of a medium format camera is just fiction.

pluton

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #161 on: July 31, 2018, 19:58:14 »
The current FX 1.5:1 aspect ratio (AR), while invented in a hurry by Barnack and company to utilize 8 perforations' worth of the already available 35mm motion picture film, turns out to be well proportioned for those that want to crop wider or squarer.
There'll be no square sensor.

Keith B., Santa Monica, CA, USA

Eddie Draaisma

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #162 on: July 31, 2018, 20:46:21 »
My impression on the Hasselblad was that it had to be square format in order to be both a landscape and portrait camera at the same time; handholding it in portrait mode, especially with the waist level finder, wouldn’t be that convenient...  ::)

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #163 on: July 31, 2018, 22:09:55 »
Nikon stated in their announcement that the new mirrorlsss camera will be FX.

Rumor <> stuff people just make up in their heads. Obviously this talk of a medium format camera is just fiction.

Absolutely. Nikon does not have a current MF lens lineup. Im not saying they won’t end up there sometime in the future but they have stated compatibility with F mount lenses which do not cover MF. The teasers also show what looks to be a rectangular FF sensor.

There are people out there who thrive on views and controversy. Ignore them.

Roland Vink

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Re: Arrival of Nikon mirrorless (finally!)
« Reply #164 on: July 31, 2018, 22:37:05 »
The current FX 1.5:1 aspect ratio (AR), while invented in a hurry by Barnack and company to utilize 8 perforations' worth of the already available 35mm motion picture film, turns out to be well proportioned for those that want to crop wider or squarer.
Not sure that it is always "well proportioned" ... maybe it is ok for landscapes but I often find 1.5:1 (3:2) ratio too narrow for portraiture or subjects like flowers, a "squarer" format 4:3 would be more suitable. Actually, I often thought 1:sqrt(2) (1:1.41) would be ideal...

I fully expect the new mirrorless camera will have a traditional FX 36x24mm sensor, although in theory they could use a different aspect ratio with the same image circle such as 35x25mm, 28x33mm or 30.5x30.5mm :o