NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Akira on July 23, 2018, 07:45:02
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZldXR313k4M
The 25th falls on the 100th anniversary day. So, everything might be disclosed shortly.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZldXR313k4M
The 25th falls on the 100th anniversary day. So, everything might be disclosed shortly.
Form factor looks to be rather modern. I’m a fan of boxy retro design, but can understand why they would let ergonomics rule. Looking forward to finding out more!
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Looks like a huge mount or a very small camera body :o
Looks actually like MF,,, Square sensor ::) pure speculation ;D
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Form factor looks to be rather modern. I’m a fan of boxy retro design, but can understand why they would let ergonomics rule. Looking forward to finding out more!
As strong believer of "form follows function" concept, I would prefer the ergonomics design, so long as it makes sense.
The vintage film cameras do look beautiful to me, too, but I think that is simply because they followed the function of a camera in which you need to put a roll of film and wind it.
Looks like a huge mount or a very small camera body :o
Looks actually like MF,,, Square sensor ::) pure speculation ;D
That's the rumored "Z" mount, I guess? The square sensor is highly unlikely, sorry to say. But a Hasselblad V style square sensor camera with the square LCD surrounded by the foldable hood on top of the body would be nice!
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the spot does not really share a lot of information???
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the spot does not really share a lot of information???
Frank, that's exactly how the "teaser" is meant to be! :D
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I am hopeful, although not optimistic, this will bring some D850s into the used market. It would be helpful if the new camera had a higher megapixel count than the D850.
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I will wait and see. Currently the D850 seems heavy to me even without the battery grip
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I am hopeful, although not optimistic, this will bring some D850s into the used market. It would be helpful if the new camera had a higher megapixel count than the D850.
Arthur, that would happen, if ever, a while after the release of the equivalent mirrorless model...
I will wait and see. Currently the D850 seems heavy to me even without the battery grip
The camera should be much lighter than D850. I'm curious about the bulk of the lenses. The lens in this teaser could be the rumored f0.95 one. :o
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I'm pretty sure people will hold on to their D850 for a long time :)
The first set of lenses will most like be fixed focal length f/1.4 I agree with NikonRumors on that :D
Noct if ever,,, much later,,, true the Z-mount is capable of fast lenses but i'm pretty sure high ISO capability is 'ruining' more or less the need for a Noct as the first lens,,,
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Arthur, that would happen, if ever, a while after the release of the equivalent mirrorless model...
I am a very patient, and thrifty, individual. . . .
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I'm pretty sure people will hold on to their D850 for a long time :)
The D850 is a very large and bulky camera, heavy and inconvenient to tote around. The mirrorless will be smaller, lighter and much easier to carry. Only a true fossil would want a D850 after the mirrorless body is introduced. . .That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. ;D
Your true fossil,
AD
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The D850 is a very large and bulky camera, heavy and inconvenient to tote around. The mirrorless will be smaller, lighter and much easier to carry. Only a true fossil would want a D850 after the mirrorless body is introduced. . .That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. ;D
I am a happy fossil!!!
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The D850 is a very large and bulky camera, heavy and inconvenient to tote around. The mirrorless will be smaller, lighter and much easier to carry. Only a true fossil would want a D850 after the mirrorless body is introduced. . .That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. ;D
We just disagree ;D
Many of us don't need a smaller camera, actually by far I prefer a larger camera for most work.
By the look of the teaser the lenses are huge anyway, they will most like not be the size of Leica M lenses,,, 8)
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We just disagree ;D
Many of us don't need a smaller camera, actually by far I prefer a larger camera for most work.
We don’t disagree as much as you might think, but I am still hopeful many D850 users WILL discern a need for the new camera and will want to sell their D850s to help fund the purchase. As I said, a higher megapixel count sensor in the new camera would be helpful in driving that process. We shall see. I’d very much like to pick up a used D850 at a reasonable price. At my current age, with both the D500 and D850, I doubt I’d ever need another camera. Or, at least I’d be able to restrain myself. :)
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OK :D
The lens in the teaser looks like a fixed focal length lens, there seems to be no distinctive diameter jump between a zoom and a focus ring as you see in almost all zoom Nikkors, so classic 35mm f/1.4 or standard 50mm f/1.4,,, could even be 24mm f/1.4 the old AFS G sure is popular!
The new kit lens should be a 24-70mm f/4 - Getting excited :o 8)
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OK :D
The lens in the teaser looks like a fixed focal length lens, there seems to be no distinctive diameter jump between a zoom and a focus ring as you see in almost all zoom Nikkors, so classic 35mm f/1.4 or standard 50mm f/1.4,,, could even be 24mm f/1.4 the old AFS G sure is popular!
The new kit lens should be a 24-70mm f/4 - Getting excited :o 8)
The lens in the video looked like a short zoom to me. With the larger mount there is no need to neck down the lens as it reaches the body so it can be constant diameter.
As for square format, the video rather clearly shows a rectangular sensor.
The thing that puzzles me(haven’t look at it closely enough is the reason the beam of light takes a right angle turn somewhere along the way. Looks like the cluster of photons hits the sensor, the. There is phase detection (the orthogonal planes) then it is interpreted as color and pixelized and sent to the rear display. Maybe the bend symbolizes tilting rear display? I hope so.
I’m hoping to be able to get O Nikkor and Heligon focusing a bit closer to infinity with a camera like this and though my dF is fine I do sometimes wish for video and more MP while still fitting in my bag everyday.
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By the look of the teaser the lenses are huge anyway, they will most like not be the size of Leica M lenses,,, 8)
The lens in the teaser looks like a fixed focal length lens, there seems to be no distinctive diameter jump between a zoom and a focus ring as you see in almost all zoom Nikkors, so classic 35mm f/1.4 or standard 50mm f/1.4,,, could even be 24mm f/1.4 the old AFS G sure is popular!
The new kit lens should be a 24-70mm f/4 - Getting excited :o 8)
The Leica M lenses "can" be smaller, because they don't need AF or VR. The SL lenses are as large as the other DSLR or full-frame mirrorless lenses.
Also, the Leica M lenses "cannot" be any larger, because they must not interfere with the rangefinder.
I would bet that the lens shown in the teaser is the rumored f0.95 lens. :D
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We don’t disagree as much as you might think, but I am still hopeful many D850 users WILL discern a need for the new camera and will want to sell their D850s to help fund the purchase. As I said, a higher megapixel count sensor in the new camera would be helpful in driving that process.
Personally I find already the 45MP too much for me and a bit of a pain in terms of storage requirements. Everything takes more space and I am trying not to spend more money on storage. I would like a D850-like camera with 24MP.
I think also for mirrorless, 24MP is close to optimal for general practical use. I hope they make such a camera at least as one of the new models. I agree a high pixel count does help to sell new cameras but I don't really believe it is genuinely in the best interests of the majority of photographers to buy such a camera. In the D850's case I bought it because of the new flash system and the new AF, and despite of the high pixel count which to me is a negative but not enough to keep me from the camera.
I actually sold the D750 after a brief period of use because I felt it is too small to use comfortably with my hands. Also the skin colors differed from the other models that I have and I didn't want that difference, either. It made more difficult to produce unified look across images shot with different cameras.
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I am hopeful, although not optimistic, this will bring some D850s into the used market. It would be helpful if the new camera had a higher megapixel count than the D850.
There are still some people who believe that mirrorless will replace DSLR (live side by side: OK).
The D850 is a very large and bulky camera, heavy and inconvenient to tote around. The mirrorless will be smaller, lighter and much easier to carry. Only a true fossil would want a D850 after the mirrorless body is introduced. . .That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. ;D
Your true fossil,
AD
I suggest the camera builders offer a 3 month subscription to a Fitness Center. :D signed: Happy Fossil
Personally I find already the 45MP too much for me and a bit of a pain in terms of storage requirements. Everything takes more space and I am trying not to spend more money on storage. I would like a D850-like camera with 24MP-
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Today, the cost of storage is neglectable and processing time is (almost) the same. You can set up your D850 to 24Mpx (RAW M).
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Today, the cost of storage is neglectable and processing time is (almost) the same.
I don't agree with that. On my 8-month old laptop, changing from one 45MP file to the next and zooming in takes 10 seconds if the power saving performance reductions are in effect (to conserve battery life). If I'm outside of access to external power, in practice I can't use the full power of the computer because it would run out of battery too quickly.
For me the limit of a good browsing experience is a 1s switch between images in 100% zoom. I understand if you spend a lot of money on a computer, you can get that, but since I have no use for the extra pixels, I'd rather not spend an excessive amount of money on a technology which loses its value so quickly (and is kind of fragile, motherboards, hard drives etc. fry relatively easily).
With 20MP and 24MP files, I don't have to wait at any point. That's to me preferable. Going through hundreds of thousands or even millions of 45MP NEF is the worst kind of nightmare to me.
500000 45MP NEFs in three copies, each copy with 2:1 redundancy takes about 195 TB of storage; that would be just too expensive for me.
On top of that, edited 16-bit TIFFs with 2 layers would increase that storage requirement even further.
You can set up your D850 to 24Mpx (RAW M).
Yes, you can, but it will be softer than the output of a real 24MP camera. I don't care for pseudo-raw raw files, it is just not a good idea.
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Looks like more leaked images are appearing now. https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/23/more-leaked-picture-of-the-new-nikon-mirrorless-full-frame-camera.aspx/
It certainly has me intrigued to say the least.
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actually I did not test the Medium RAW files of the D850 yet and like to hear more opinions on that.
I agree with Ilkka concerning the handling of D850 files, not only on my notebooks but also on my big machine with double 8-way-Xeon and 64GB RAM I have to wait for the computer to show me the things I need to see to decide keeper or bin. I do not like this.
With 12MP on a lesser computer I could fly through hundreds of files and delete or rate in flight. Very efficient. With 24MP the process is minimally slower, but OK.
45MP is esp slow to zoom into 100% to see if I hit eyes, lips, nose or ear in the heat of the movement in a series
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I'm using Lr and I have my standard previews set to the size of my screen (3360 px). So I never use the real size of my picture, except for the first 30 days where I keep 1:1 previews. I'm using a AMD Radeon Pro 460 graphic processor in Lr on my MBP 2016, and everything goes very fast: going from one 45 Mpx image to the other is immediate; and zooming in to 100% takes about one (1) second.
I have the D850 for exactly one month. It is also my first high pixel camera. So my experience is limited.
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http://taipeigeek.blogspot.com/2018/07/exclusive-new-nikon-mirrorless-images.html (http://taipeigeek.blogspot.com/2018/07/exclusive-new-nikon-mirrorless-images.html)
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But if you don't use the original resolution image to preview the images, how will you check that there isn't a small focus error that might happen in the heat of the action? While the D850's focusing is excellent, still if I capture 10 images of a subject that is moving there will be some that are less sharp than others.
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But if you don't use the original resolution image to preview the images, how will you check that there isn't a small focus error that might happen in the heat of the action? While the D850's focusing is excellent, still if I capture 10 images of a subject that is moving there will be some that are less sharp than others.
Lr keeps the 100% images for the first month (user defined); after this period, I'm supposed to have finished the post-processing. In the present case the preview is stored on a SSD (1To); If I have to check after this period and I want to dig further than the stored 3360px image, Lr will automatically download / go back to the original (45 Mpx) file, stored on a HDD.
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It is only the Preview in the Lr catalogue cache that gets removed after the selected period which could be 30 days but this can be set to Never).
If you re-open the RAW file after the 30 days, Lr simply refers to the saved EXIF and renders a new Preview.
Unless you are seriously short of storage space (and External USB HDs are now incredibly inexpensive) I can't imagine why anyone would choose to downsample their files before editing them.
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A lot of people, including my self, are doing a quite big chunk of post production under Lr Mobile (tablet, smartphone); one of the advantages of downsampling. And if you are editing on your main PC, you are generally working on a sample, unless you have a 8k screen.
Lr also allows to edit your pictures without the presence of the original file (HDD attached); once back home (and the HDD attached again) everything is synchronized again. But this brings us too far from the original subject ;)
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It seems your laptop gives similar performance in LR as my desktop when the images are on SSD. However, most of the time all the projects I am working on do not fit on the SSD. I didn't choose a Macbook Pro as I prefer the thinkpad keyboard and trackpoint for writing and editing manuscripts. The relative lack of power is a result of requirement that the laptop fits in the smaller of my camera backpacks. Anyway it is used mainly for writing as well as a screen for studio use and works fine for editing 20-24MP files, but not 45MP. My desktop would otherwise handle 45MP passably but not when there are multiple large projects. I don't want to invest more into the computers since the cost of maintaining storage, laptop+desktop, printer, software licenses etc. already are more than I would like. I can see that perhaps my laptop choice was not the best for photo editing but it was the closest match for my overall requirements. I by far prefer the controls on the Lenovo for editing documents to what is available on Macs. I find the Mac too dependent on gestures whereas there are more physical controls on the Thinkpad and the trackpoint is where my forefingers are when typing so I don't need to move my hand to use the mouse. Perhaps I naively assumed any modern computer is fast enough. Anyway the Thinkpad is brilliant for writing.
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I by far prefer the controls on the Lenovo for editing documents to what is available on Macs. I find the Mac too dependent on gestures whereas there are more physical controls on the Thinkpad and the trackpoint is where my forefingers are when typing so I don't need to move my hand to use the mouse. Perhaps I naively assumed any modern computer is fast enough. Anyway the Thinkpad is brilliant for writing.
All our needs are different and moreover, constantly evolving. I think that is something we need to be aware of. This is one reason I am more than happy with my 12Mp D3. I get images which more than satisfy me, at a price I can afford.
Yet next year I am hoping to add a D810 to my bag... Not for the resolution, more for the ISO and dynamic range. After all the D3 was Nikon's first FX camera, things have moved on, a lot.
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D810 is a mighty fine camera and imho there is no need to go above that very high benchmark.
I'm sure you'll love it ;)
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That's what I thought about the D3, and still do but there can be no denying progress, especially from a first product.
Much as Arthur sees the D850 as a target once it's become superseded by the next 'must have' I am looking for something, not *better* but more suitable, for astro and fine work, which good as it is, the D3 isn't really suited with it's relatively lego block size pixels. I used the D1 for three years (for those who may not know, the D1 was about 2.6Mp), so the 12Mp D3 is very high resolution by comparison!
I find it hard to imagine what a D810 will be like to work with but I hope to find out...
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My biggest definition camera is the d750 right now and I see no need to get any bigger files. I have been shooting with a d700 today... time will tell.
Nikon opened a micro site for the mirrorless: https://events.imaging.nikon.com/live/en/
Silent shutter and good low light performance? If AF can keep up count me in!
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If we go back to the original subject: how would the upcoming mirrorless fit in your daily practice of photography?
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If we go back to the original subject: how would the upcoming mirrorless fit in your daily practice of photography?
Quite well. I carry my camera everyday as I use it to document construction progress among other things. A smaller body would be nice to have. I’m also photographing things at odd angles so an articulated rear display would be helpful in those conditions. Lastly, I’m hopeful that the electronic viewfinder will help me focus in very low light. The dF has been a good camera for me, but I’m thinking seriously of the advantages which it looks that a mirrorless camera will bring.
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One of the rumours is that the camera has sensor based image stabilisation. That would be a new feature for Nikon which has relied on lens-based stabilisation (VR). That would breath new life into older lenses without VR.
It is also suggested the new camera is fairly compact but with a good sized grip.
If this is true, and it has good external controls for ISO, shutter speed, exposure compensation etc, and a viewfinder which supports accurate manual focus (maybe focus peaking), it would be an excellent platform for older manual lenses, perhaps better than the Df...
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fyi Enhanced clips and images from the promo video give a slightly better insight into this camera (see also 2 images in the Comments to reveal the layout of the controls):
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/24/more-on-of-the-nikon-mirrorless-camera-teaser.aspx/#more-123810 (https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/24/more-on-of-the-nikon-mirrorless-camera-teaser.aspx/#more-123810)
Overall dimensions look to be about 93mm x 72mm
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Estimated height of the body at the grip 72mm and at the viewfinder 93mm,,,
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That's what I thought about the D3, and still do but there can be no denying progress, especially from a first product.
Much as Arthur sees the D850 as a target once it's become superseded by the next 'must have' I am looking for something, not *better* but more suitable, for astro and fine work, which good as it is, the D3 isn't really suited with it's relatively lego block size pixels. I used the D1 for three years (for those who may not know, the D1 was about 2.6Mp), so the 12Mp D3 is very high resolution by comparison!
I find it hard to imagine what a D810 will be like to work with but I hope to find out...
Seapy- After reading about the difficulty of processing D850 images, I am rethinking my decision to go with the D850. The D810 and, based on some comments Akira made, the D750, are now back in the mix. Used D810s can be found on Ebay for around $1250. The D750 is a little less. I’m not sure whether the increase in iq from my 20mp D500 to a 24mp D750 would get me where I want to be, so I need to read a few reviews and then perhaps come back and ask some questions before I buy.
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Well, I wouldn't say D850 images are "difficult" to process; you need a fast computer with sufficient memory and one which the software that you use is efficient on (interestingly it would seem that not all theoretically powerful computers are efficient at this task). And plenty of SSD storage. I bought my laptop based on other criteria and that wasn't a success for 45MP files. A Macbook Pro has been suggested as being fast enough with Lightroom. Also it depends on how many images are to be processed. I shoot way too much; this is a habit formed during the times when AF was less reliable.
A D750 or D500 are certainly capable.
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Seapy- After reading about the difficulty of processing D850 images, I am rethinking my decision to go with the D850. The D810 and, based on some comments Akira made, the D750, are now back in the mix. Used D810s can be found on Ebay for around $1250. The D750 is a little less. I’m not sure whether the increase in iq from my 20mp D500 to a 24mp D750 would get me where I want to be, so I need to read a few reviews and then perhaps come back and ask some questions before I buy.
I think we should be conducting this conversation by PM! Else the demand (and price) for used D810's is likely to rise ... ;) LOL ;D
I have my own issues with processing which I am expecting to raise in another thread...
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One of the rumours is that the camera has sensor based image stabilisation. That would be a new feature for Nikon which has relied on lens-based stabilisation (VR). That would breath new life into older lenses without VR.
It is also suggested the new camera is fairly compact but with a good sized grip.
If this is true, and it has good external controls for ISO, shutter speed, exposure compensation etc, and a viewfinder which supports accurate manual focus (maybe focus peaking), it would be an excellent platform for older manual lenses, perhaps better than the Df...
I hope so. Let's wait and see. ;)
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A few interesting thoughts in this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGGbkbyBcR0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGGbkbyBcR0)
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A few interesting thoughts in this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGGbkbyBcR0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGGbkbyBcR0)
1000% percent true ....
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Sounds logical, but what a bad presentation. Really bad.
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Sounds logical, but what a bad presentation. Really bad.
In that case, you didn’t know Theoria Apophasis ;) But he’s is often wrong.
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In that case, you didn’t know Theoria Apophasis ;) But he’s is often wrong.
:o :o :o
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It seems that the F-mount anti-clockwise lensmount closing direction is retained; right hand holding the camera, left hand gripping the lens with left thumb pressing the unlock button. Good!
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Seapy- After reading about the difficulty of processing D850 images, I am rethinking my decision to go with the D850. The D810 and, based on some comments Akira made, the D750, are now back in the mix. Used D810s can be found on Ebay for around $1250. The D750 is a little less. I’m not sure whether the increase in iq from my 20mp D500 to a 24mp D750 would get me where I want to be, so I need to read a few reviews and then perhaps come back and ask some questions before I buy.
Sorry for going off topic. Arthur, I went the other way, swapping the D750 for the D500. My primary reason was that I had serious reliability issues with the D750 and after it failed a third time in less than 70k actuations, I just didn't trust it anymore.
I shoot primarily birds, night/starscapes and some daytime landscapes, general wildlife and a fair amount of aircraft.
For birds, the D500 is undeniably better. The same applies to aircraft in flight, from the ground. In these applications, the crop factor more than compensates for any IQ loss except in very bad light, and the improvements in handling, speed and especially AF performance are very welcome.
For daytime landscapes (assuming you have lenses that deliver similar results on the different formats), I think there is little difference between the two, although the D750 has slightly more pliable files, but this is easily compensated nowadays by doing an HDR.
For star and night landscapes, the D750 is the clear winner, and is probably even better than the D810 in some respects (primarily the pivoting LCD makes this form of photography much easier), but I suspect in image quality the D810 will win, but the D850 should beat that too...
I would love to suppliment my D500 with a D810, but would not swap.
But I attended a talk by a couple of SA's most prominent nature photographers. One of them (Wim van den Heever, if you want to look at his work) stated that in his mind the D850 is currently by a long marging the best nature camera in the world. He has replaced all his cameras (D5, D500 and D810) with a pair of D850's...
When shooting birds, using it in crop mode gives equal or better performance of the D500 in almost all respects, while delivering similar file sizes to the 24MP cameras...
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:o :o :o
I remember two false news he send around with regard of the D850: (1) sensor produced by TowerJaz; (2) D850 with a hybrid viewfinder i.e OVF and EVF. But I like quite this atypical person.
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Sorry for going off topic. Arthur, I went the other way, swapping the D750 for the D500. My primary reason was that I had serious reliability issues with the D750 and after it failed a third time in less than 70k actuations, I just didn't trust it anymore.
I shoot primarily birds, night/starscapes and some daytime landscapes, general wildlife and a fair amount of aircraft.
For birds, the D500 is undeniably better. The same applies to aircraft in flight, from the ground. In these applications, the crop factor more than compensates for any IQ loss except in very bad light, and the improvements in handling, speed and especially AF performance are very welcome.
For daytime landscapes (assuming you have lenses that deliver similar results on the different formats), I think there is little difference between the two, although the D750 has slightly more pliable files, but this is easily compensated nowadays by doing an HDR.
For star and night landscapes, the D750 is the clear winner, and is probably even better than the D810 in some respects (primarily the pivoting LCD makes this form of photography much easier), but I suspect in image quality the D810 will win, but the D850 should beat that too...
I would love to suppliment my D500 with a D810, but would not swap.
But I attended a talk by a couple of SA's most prominent nature photographers. One of them (Wim van den Heever, if you want to look at his work) stated that in his mind the D850 is currently by a long marging the best nature camera in the world. He has replaced all his cameras (D5, D500 and D810) with a pair of D850's...
When shooting birds, using it in crop mode gives equal or better performance of the D500 in almost all respects, while delivering similar file sizes to the 24MP cameras...
From everything I've read, and without the benefit of personal hands on experience with the D850, I think he is right. I just don't want to get myself in a position where I'm going to have to spend a ton on computers and software, (in addition to the cost of the camera and some not inexpensive lenses) to be able to process the images. Photography is a hobby for me, not a business, so I have to exercise some restraint in my purchases (but not so much as to prevent me from purchasing the 300mm f/4 PF ED VR lens I so covet ;D).
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what Peter Connan says is sooo true.
In my case it was replacement of the D600, which I regard higher than the D750 in build quality, with the D850. A giant leap forward: reliability, AF, base ISO till mid ISO IQ, the very consistent white balance. After a while you do not overshoot so much anymore but learn to trust the professional tool rid yourself of bad habits that come with mediocre tools.
The D500 is a very trustworthy professional tool like the D5 and D850. Do not underestimate that.
The D810 is a professional reliable tool too, but the step up to the D850 in billions of little details that reward you every day is worth the difference.
I get my results with the D850 in 1 or 2 shots instead of 6 or 8 for the D600. White Balance and AF are the main issues
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This highly anticipated moment in time has finally arrived and plan to sell my Sony's and play around with Nikon gear again.
Hope the stabilised sensor is indeed one of the features as it indeed breathes new life into some classic lenses (like my A7RII did).
The new cameras should be present at the Photokina coming September, all the more reason to go there once more :)
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Apparently Nikon is directing much of its production resource for the new mirrorless model.
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/24/today-its-july-24th-and-the-nikon-d850-is-still-out-of-stock-in-the-us.aspx/
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Well, it's been in stock here continuously since December.
I think Nikon USA underpriced the camera and Nikon Europe overpriced it, resulting in a shortage in US and ready availability in EU (but perhaps fewer buyers). I think Nikon don't want to move stock to the US from other areas because they make less money on each unit sold there than elsewhere.
IMO the lack of supply in the US problem could be solved by bringing the prices closer to each other.
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The new cameras should be present at the Photokina coming September, all the more reason to go there once more :)
JA, another get-together is more than welcome :)
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Well, it's been in stock here continuously since December.
I think Nikon USA underpriced the camera and Nikon Europe overpriced it, resulting in a shortage in US and ready availability in EU (but perhaps fewer buyers). I think Nikon don't want to move stock to the US from other areas because they make less money on each unit sold there than elsewhere.
IMO the lack of supply in the US problem could be solved by bringing the prices closer to each other.
Is D850 that highly priced in Europe? The prices here in Japan is roughly the same as in the States, and the cameras are readily available.
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Is D850 that highly priced in Europe? The prices here in Japan is roughly the same as in the States, and the cameras are readily available.
In my country it is 1070€ more expensive than at B&H. A part of the difference is VAT but much of it is just Nikon charging more, it seems. In Germany, the price is a bit lower but still it is nothing like the U.S. price.
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Is D850 that highly priced in Europe? The prices here in Japan is roughly the same as in the States, and the cameras are readily available.
europe is very expensive :o :o :o
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Internet aside, in Spain is close to 3500€/4000$, quite a difference
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In my country it is 1070€ more expensive than at B&H. A part of the difference is VAT but much of it is just Nikon charging more, it seems. In Germany, the price is a bit lower but still it is nothing like the U.S. price.
Wow, that is a whole lot more!! I wonder how much of that is needed to fund your distributor assuming you have one for your country. With the EU it could make sense to have one for the whole EU much like there is one for the whole USA and not one for each state. Different languages, however, might be a problem (though what is called English in parts of the US is barely understandable).
In May I was in Anchorage and visited the big camera store there - Stewarts. They had 11 850's on back order at that time. Meanwhile they had not sold any Canon 5D series bodies in over a year.
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Internet aside, in Spain is close to 3500€/4000$, quite a difference
In the US we call that price gouging. Such as ticket sales at sold-out events by people outside the event.
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Is D850 that highly priced in Europe? The prices here in Japan is roughly the same as in the States, and the cameras are readily available.
I paid my D850 the equivalent of €3'000 (CHF 3'500, VAT included) with an extra free battery. VAT in Switzerland is 7.6%. The body was immediately available (end June 2018). For us, VAT at 20% (⅕th of the price), or more, sounds like a genuine ripoff ;)
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Ilkka, Paco and Christian, thank you for the response. That is quite a difference.
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This highly anticipated moment in time has finally arrived and plan to sell my Sony's and play around with Nikon gear again.
Hope the stabilised sensor is indeed one of the features as it indeed breathes new life into some classic lenses (like my A7RII did).
The new cameras should be present at the Photokina coming September, all the more reason to go there once more :)
J.A., I am looking forward to seeing exactly what is on offer. Not sure the Sony gear will be on the chopping block but it could spell the end for some of our m43 gear. My wife has just started using the Sony stuff, not quite there yet with the user interface but loves the ISO range. I have developed a great affection for some of my Leica M, VM and ZM lenses so will see what can be adapted to the Nikons. I've never stopped playing around with my Nikon gear since playing around is what I do most often ;) . I really look forward to user thoughts here once the new gear is out. I started selling some Sony FE lenses some months ago.
I really hope the new Nikons are more robust with better weather resistance than the Sony bodies.
All the best,
Tom
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Here is an official announcement on the new mirrorless camera:
https://www.nikon.co.jp/news/2018/0725_mirrorless_01.htm
The announcement is in Japanese, but it clearly states that the mount is new, and the Nikkor lenses for Nikon (D)SLRs can be used "via a mount adapter". It doesn't specify the compatible Nikkor lenses, though.
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Here is an official announcement on the new mirrorless camera:
https://www.nikon.co.jp/news/2018/0725_mirrorless_01.htm
The announcement is in Japanese, but it clearly states that the mount is new, and the Nikkor lenses for Nikon (D)SLRs can be used "via a mount adapter". It doesn't specify the compatible Nikkor lenses, though.
full compatibility. trust me on this :o :o :o
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Here is an official announcement on the new mirrorless camera:
https://www.nikon.co.jp/news/2018/0725_mirrorless_01.htm
Development of a next-generation full-frame mirrorless camera and NIKKOR lenses — featuring a new mount — that pursues a new dimension in optical performance
July 25, 2018
TOKYO - Nikon Corporation (Nikon) is pleased to announce the development of a full-frame, Nikon FX-format, mirrorless camera and NIKKOR lenses featuring a new mount.
The mirrorless camera and NIKKOR lenses that are in development have enabled the pursuit of a new dimension in optical performance, with the adoption of a new mount. The mirrorless camera is the result of Nikon's advanced optical and manufacturing capabilities gained through over a century of heritage, as well as superior image-processing technology. The expertise built up through the development of Nikon's digital SLR cameras has also critically contributed to this development.
With this new mirrorless camera and NIKKOR lenses, we are committed to providing photographers with the ability to capture images that are richer and more vivid than ever before.
Additionally, a new mount adapter is being developed for the new mirrorless camera. This will work with the NIKKOR F mount lenses that are part of the Nikon digital SLR system, adding to the variety of choices for photographers.
Nikon will continue to lead imaging culture with the launch of this new mirrorless camera, as well as with the continued development of Nikon digital SLR cameras, providing consumers with the choice of enjoying the unique values of either system.
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Here is an official announcement on the new mirrorless camera:
https://www.nikon.co.jp/news/2018/0725_mirrorless_01.htm
The announcement is in Japanese, but it clearly states that the mount is new, and the Nikkor lenses for Nikon (D)SLRs can be used "via a mount adapter". It doesn't specify the compatible Nikkor lenses, though.
English version: http://www.nikon.com.au/en_AU/about/product_news/development-of-a-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless
The relevant parts...
The mirrorless camera and NIKKOR lenses that are in development have enabled the pursuit of a new dimension in optical performance, with the adoption of a new mount.
And
Additionally, a new mount adapter is being developed for the new mirrorless camera. This will work with the F-Mount NIKKOR lenses that are part of the Nikon digital-SLR system, adding to the variety of choices for photographers.
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This highly anticipated moment in time has finally arrived and plan to sell my Sony's and play around with Nikon gear again.
Hope the stabilised sensor is indeed one of the features as it indeed breathes new life into some classic lenses (like my A7RII did).
The new cameras should be present at the Photokina coming September, all the more reason to go there once more :)
Yes! Welcome back ;)
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JA, another get-together is more than welcome :)
Sounds like a good plan 8)
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Well, it's been in stock here continuously since December.
I think Nikon USA underpriced the camera and Nikon Europe overpriced it, resulting in a shortage in US and ready availability in EU (but perhaps fewer buyers). I think Nikon don't want to move stock to the US from other areas because they make less money on each unit sold there than elsewhere.
IMO the lack of supply in the US problem could be solved by bringing the prices closer to each other.
One guy in the distribution chain told me that Nikon in Japan receives the same amount of money for every camera independent of the channel. I am not sure if National Nikons are 100% owned by Nikon in Japan, I guess they are not. If that is the case, Nikon does not make more money here or there. It depends on details of ownership
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IMHO this statement says a lot about the whole DSLR vs. Mirrorless debate that has been all the fuss the last years on all photography forums! it's not and will most likely never ba one or the other but both and 8) Plus the never dying rangefinder minority ;D
Nikon will continue to lead imaging culture with the launch of the new mirrorless camera, as well as with the continued development of Nikon digital-SLR cameras, providing consumers with the choices to enjoy the unique values of either system.
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https://www.e-infin.com/eu/item/3416/nikon_d850_digital_slr_camera_(body_only)
so 2600€ in JA's favourite shop...
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https://www.e-infin.com/eu/item/3416/nikon_d850_digital_slr_camera_(body_only)
so 2600€ in JA's favourite shop...
Any experiences with this shop?
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https://www.e-infin.com/eu/item/3416/nikon_d850_digital_slr_camera_(body_only)
so 2600€ in JA's favourite shop...
And still €3799 incl 21% VAT in all the major camera shops overhere in the NL, like Apple products we rarely see price drops for Nikon and Sony cameras, pretty sure they regulate the prices overhere.
Just check the price graph, completely flatlined for the last 10 months while prices drop heavily elsewhere:
https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/965313/nikon-d850-zwart.html
And the local shops wonder why I shop abroad ;D
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Same price situation here in DK,,, But it is sometimes possible to get a reduction ;)
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For me the interesting question is: will the new mount really enable significantly better lens constructions?
All people seem to value huge openings in the body and a short register distance and still Leica "M" shows us that a little hole with a long register distance outperforms most other systems.
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Any experiences with this shop?
I bought two lenses there that were not available in my local shop. No complaints. Reliable source
But I wanted to own the D500 and the D850 on day one and paid a hefty extra price for that early adoption in both cases. No regrets, would do it again anytime.
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For me the interesting question is: will the new mount really enable significantly better lens constructions?
All people seem to value huge openings in the body and a short register distance and still Leica "M" shows us that a little hole with a long register distance outperforms most other systems.
It just gives the lens designer some more freedom for the design of the optics and the mechanical layout of the lens body.
It all comes down to cost of the glass, lens body materials and complexity of the machining and assembly of the all of the parts,,,
The final price of the product is all a part of this, you can't make a cheap lens perform better due to a larger mount as souch.
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Erik: so your prediction is that we might see Leica performance but for Leica prices,,, or OTUS as we speak huge & heavy gear???
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I bought two lenses there that were not available in my local shop. No complaints. Reliable source
But I wanted to own the D500 and the D850 on day one and paid a hefty extra price for that early adoption in both cases. No regrets, would do it again anytime.
It just gives the lens designer some more freedom for the design of the optics and the mechanical layout of the lens body.
It all comes down to cost of the glass, lens body materials and complexity of the machining and assembly of the all of the parts,,,
The final price of the product is all a part of this, you can't make a cheap lens perform better due to a larger mount as souch.
So long as I've seen the lenses for the mirrorless cameras, Olympus, Panasonic, Sony or Fuji, the wideangle primes and zooms (and maybe standard zooms as well?) are the only lenses that are benefited by the short flange back...
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A few interesting thoughts in this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGGbkbyBcR0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGGbkbyBcR0)
Mr tatoos goes on about 65mm, but cannot handle listening through all the repetition and waffle. but it's the outer diameter according to a January post by NR, who summarized Nikon's patent for the Z-mount. This has Mount diameter (opening): 49mm, Total diameter of mount: 65.4mm & Flange focal distance: 16mm
Can a Z-Mount of 49mm Dia. accommodate a MF sensor? That in the top model 'Blad H6D measures 53.4 x 40mm; the "cropped" MF sensor in the X1D measures 44 x 33mm
The leaked photos of this new Nikon ML hide too much, me thinks :-)
Read more: https://nikonrumors.com/2018/01/18/a-quick-update-on-the-rumored-nikon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-z-mount.aspx/#ixzz5MG1fpRP4
to add: today's official Press Release really is appropriate to announce a new lens/AF mount. The 101st anniversary of Nikon :D ;)
"Additionally, a new mount adapter is being developed for the new mirrorless camera. This will work with the NIKKOR F mount lenses that are part of the Nikon digital SLR system, adding to the variety of choices for photographers."
Read more: https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/25/official-press-release-nikons-develops-the-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless-camera.aspx/#ixzz5MG6PnyAY
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Erik: so your prediction is that we might see Leica performance but for Leica prices,,, or OTUS as we speak huge & heavy gear???
More or less, both is the case yes.
As the performance of the optics are higher and higher the more expensive they will be, but it is linked to the size, that makes it more expensive to manufacture so higher price as well.
Precision optics need precision mechanics to perform!
Otus Leica M performance is a good comparison
55mm f/1.4 Otus is about the same performance as 50mm APO f/2 ASPH Leica M
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/comparing-rangefinder-and-slr-50mm-lenses-version-0-7/
The Otus is half the price but is about four times the volume, double the diameter, three times the length and weight,,,
Same performance,,, yes it's f/2 vs. f/1.4 not really the point here,,,
Key is; Performance is more or less identical.
Sure AFS ring motor will need space but not much.
VR will be in body so not relevant unless you use DSLR lenses for comparison.
Weight can be saved using the good plastics.
There is no free lunch. Sorry
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Mr tatoos goes on about 65mm, but cannot handle listening through all the repetition and waffle. but it's the outer diameter according to a January post by NR, who summarized Nikon's patent for the Z-mount. This has Mount diameter (opening): 49mm, Total diameter of mount: 65.4mm & Flange focal distance: 16mm
Can a Z-Mount of 49mm Dia. accommodate a MF sensor? That in the top model 'Blad H6D measures 53.4 x 40mm; the "cropped" MF sensor in the X1D measures 44 x 33mm
The leaked photos of this new Nikon ML hide too much, me thinks :-)
Read more: https://nikonrumors.com/2018/01/18/a-quick-update-on-the-rumored-nikon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-z-mount.aspx/#ixzz5MG1fpRP4 (https://nikonrumors.com/2018/01/18/a-quick-update-on-the-rumored-nikon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-z-mount.aspx/#ixzz5MG1fpRP4)
to add: today's official Press Release really is appropriate to announce a new lens/AF mount. The 101st anniversary of Nikon :D ;)
"Additionally, a new mount adapter is being developed for the new mirrorless camera. This will work with the NIKKOR F mount lenses that are part of the Nikon digital SLR system, adding to the variety of choices for photographers."
Read more: https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/25/official-press-release-nikons-develops-the-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless-camera.aspx/#ixzz5MG6PnyAY (https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/25/official-press-release-nikons-develops-the-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless-camera.aspx/#ixzz5MG6PnyAY)
I agree!
This new image looks much more like it could be the standard zoom 24-70mm f/4
That grip sure is huge!
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Nikon Japan just announced the "Nikon Fan Meeting 2018" events held in seven major cities in Japan, starting on September 1:
http://www.nikon-image.com/event/fanmeeting_2018/
Yes, the illustrated camera is D850, but would they offer such events at this time without the "real things"? ;D
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europe is very expensive :o :o :o
Well no, not everything in Europe is much more expensive. The D800 was 2500€ (in some shops 2700€) when a friend of mine bought it in summer 2012, and I paid about 3200€ for the D810. These prices were closer in line with US prices.
I should say that we are used to higher prices for some electronics than in the US market, especially memory cards are unbelievably expensive here and I try to avoid having to buy them here. Usually lenses and camera bodies are only slightly more expensive here than in the US due to the different taxes involved.
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The launch price of both D800 and D800E where very affordable when they where introduced.
I talked ti NPS at one of the big launch events here in DK and he said it actually a miscalculation, they didn't earn much on them,,,
So said the pro shops here,,,
As I recall the D800E increased in price some time after the launch here in Scandinavia,,,
I agree, for the money D810 is by far a much better features vs money,,,
Edit to add:
Nikon has updated the pricing for its new professional line of DSLR cameras - the Nikon D800, Nikon D800E and Nikon D4.
The company has apologised for originally releasing the incorrect information, which it puts down to an unfortunate "local internal systems error", which saw the new flagship pro camera priced at £4799.99, some £490 cheaper than the actual price of £5289.99.
To add confusion to the matter, pre-orders for the cameras are also open. However, Nikon has said that it will honour the pre-orders at those prices, if your order was placed before 24 March 2012.
So, to make it clear, the prices for the new cameras will be:Nikon D4 - £5289.99
- Nikon D800 - £2599.99
- Nikon D800E - £2899.99
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The latest announcement seems very rational and hopefully keeps down some of the crazy talk like end of line for dslr or moving to medium format.
The larger diameter of the new mount and elimination of mirror have potential to increase the stiffness and strength of the camera.
Some people have noted that the grip seems elongated. It looks like it allows holding the camera more like a video camera (palmcorder) with the hand in line with the forearm when viewing the rear display. This seems to be a more stable position if you are doing video and would help with the overall balance of the camera when compared to rangefinder style bodies.
It will be interesting to see the camera emerge from the shadows.
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The latest announcement seems very rational and hopefully keeps down some of the crazy talk like end of line for dslr or moving to medium format.
The larger diameter of the new mount and elimination of mirror have potential to increase the stiffness and strength of the camera.
Some people have noted that the grip seems elongated. It looks like it allows holding the camera more like a video camera (palmcorder) with the hand in line with the forearm when viewing the rear display. This seems to be a more stable position if you are doing video and would help with the overall balance of the camera when compared to rangefinder style bodies.
It will be interesting to see the camera emerge from the shadows.
A practical question to be answered in a few weeks is what battery will run this mirrorless. A logical option is to make use of the ENEL18, giving significantly more juice than a cell like the ENEL15. A large grip could house a big battery.
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A practical question to be answered in a few weeks is what battery will run this mirrorless. A logical option is to make use of the ENEL18, giving significantly more juice than a cell like the ENEL15. A large grip could house a big battery.
I doubt this very much; it would be a far too large grip for normal hands. There seems to be some availability / production problems with the EN-EL18b, leading to the new c model which doesn't seem to be in shops yet. It is also an extremely expensive battery.
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While we are on the battery discussion...I'm hoping they made it power conscious and I won't need 4 batteries to get through a day.
I know we are spoiled with the battery life of cameras like the D750 and Df, but a CIPA of 500 shots per charge would be awesome, as most other mirrorless cameras on the market are looking at 250-300 per.
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J.A., I am looking forward to seeing exactly what is on offer. Not sure the Sony gear will be on the chopping block but it could spell the end for some of our m43 gear. My wife has just started using the Sony stuff, not quite there yet with the user interface but loves the ISO range. I have developed a great affection for some of my Leica M, VM and ZM lenses so will see what can be adapted to the Nikons. I've never stopped playing around with my Nikon gear since playing around is what I do most often ;) . I really look forward to user thoughts here once the new gear is out. I started selling some Sony FE lenses some months ago.
I really hope the new Nikons are more robust with better weather resistance than the Sony bodies.
All the best,
Tom
Hi Tom,
For me the move back to Nikon will be a gradual change starting at the tele end, though I love the IQ and metal build quality of the Canon 100-400IS MKII it simply doesn't perform as expected on the Sony A7RII in the AF department and hooking it up with a Canon DSLR body is a simple no no for me.
So, I've just ordered a D500 with the intent to order de 200-500VR tomorrow and will sell the Canon tele and the original A7S which hasn't been used for ages to cover the majority of the cost of the new combo. The 200-500VR will probably be glued to the D500 as I intent to use short classic manual focus lenses on a mirrorless camera.
Replacing the A7RII will be more complicated however as I have two really good native lenses, the Sony Zeiss 35/1.4 FE and the Voigtlander 15/4.5 FE. Besides the native lenses I also have the Canon 85/1.2 FD and the Voigtlander 125/2.5 APO in Canon EF mount with dedicated adapters, as I plan to keep these unique and amazing lenses I have to wait for adapters for the new Nikon system which will hopefully become available in the near future.
The Nikkor 50/1.2 should be easily adapted to the new mirrorless platform and can of course also be used on the D500 :)
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Any experiences with this shop?
In 2016 I bought the A7RII and the Canon 100-400IS MKII, the price difference on the body almost covered price of the lens.
Today with the D500 order a very similar situation, the price difference (€850) with the local prices will again almost cover the price of the 200-500VR (€1029).
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Can a Z-Mount of 49mm Dia. accommodate a MF sensor? That in the top model 'Blad H6D measures 53.4 x 40mm; the "cropped" MF sensor in the X1D measures 44 x 33mm
The FX sensor requires an image circle of 43.3mm. If the camera has IBIS, the sensor can shift sideways so the image circle needs to be a little bigger. Also allow space for the lens bayonet mount, and sleeve around the rear element ... that could easily take you up to 49mm diameter. That would allow a lens with a rear element big enough to cover the sensor, which should permit lens designs with fast aperture and low mechanical vignetting.
The 44 x 33mm sensor requires an image circle of 55mm. You could potentially stuff one behind the rumoured Z-mount, but it wouldn't be practical, especially for faster lenses, or telephotos where the rays hit the sensor perpendicular - image corners would be truncated by the smaller size of the opening.
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The FX sensor requires an image circle of 43.3mm. If the camera has IBIS, the sensor can shift sideways so the image circle needs to be a little bigger. Also allow space for the lens bayonet mount, and sleeve around the rear element ... that could easily take you up to 49mm diameter. That would allow a lens with a rear element big enough to cover the sensor, which should permit lens designs with fast aperture and low mechanical vignetting.
The 44 x 33mm sensor requires an image circle of 55mm. You could potentially stuff one behind the rumoured Z-mount, but it wouldn't be practical, especially for faster lenses, or telephotos where the rays hit the sensor perpendicular - image corners would be truncated by the smaller size of the opening.
As Akira reminds us yesterday was the 101st anniversary of Nikon.
Thanks Roland, for your succinct synopsis. IBIS will be a boon with our treasured MF lenses :-)
The updated speculations on NR include this image comparing the approximated bayonet mount against the Fuji GFX and Nikon D850:
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/25/new-nikon-mirrorless-camera-renderings.aspx/#more-123898
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Latest update with overview on NR..... It is reminiscent of the launch of the D850 a year ago
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/27/nikon-mirrorless-camera-rumors-the-big-recap.aspx/ (https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/27/nikon-mirrorless-camera-rumors-the-big-recap.aspx/)
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Eh, has anyone already mentioned the special livestreaming event on Aug. 23?
https://events.imaging.nikon.com/live/en/
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Nikon has really succeeded in building anticipation and absolute mystery this time! Did Nikon do the same thing with the Df before the event or did all the fuss come about after the first images were released? My head was deeply buried in Fiji at the time, and I missed anything that happened before the release. When I did see the first pictures and description, what was revealed to me was just how shallow was my head buried in Fiji! I immediately lost interest in it and decided to give my Fiji to my son and buy a Df body. The biggest, best decision I've ever made, photographically, I think, unless it was selling my Olympus OM-1 and buying my Nikon F2SB.
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Eh, has anyone already mentioned the special livestreaming event on Aug. 23?
https://events.imaging.nikon.com/live/en/
I saw it on the Nikon FB page
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The D850 is a very large and bulky camera, heavy and inconvenient to tote around. The mirrorless will be smaller, lighter and much easier to carry. Only a true fossil would want a D850 after the mirrorless body is introduced. . .That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. ;D
Your true fossil,
AD
I'm a true of fossil.
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Nikon has really succeeded in building anticipation and absolute mystery this time! Did Nikon do the same thing with the Df before the event or did all the fuss come about after the first images were released?
It was a similar 'teaser' campaign, with murky, shadowy images that show only portions of the edges of the new miracle product. Expect a very stylized but uninformative promotion video to follow.
To be fair to Nikon, the ML camera is a bigger deal, technologically speaking.
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A practical question to be answered in a few weeks is what battery will run this mirrorless. A logical option is to make use of the ENEL18, giving significantly more juice than a cell like the ENEL15. A large grip could house a big battery.
EN-EL 18 is a great idea. It would allow a brighter, EVF when needed, and for as long as needed. Second choice would be two EN-EL 15's or a new battery with extra heft.
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I have tried to read/remember (ha ha, there is the rub) the seven pages of posts, and don't recall anyone remarking on this:
This will work with the NIKKOR F mount lenses that are part of the Nikon digital SLR system, adding to the variety of choices for photographers.
If I am reading this correctly, it does not include those great old heritage Nikkors most of us own and use on Df et al bodies. "part of the Nikon digital system" to me means only digital era lenses, not pre-digital lenses. I will not be disappointed, because I have little interest in acquiring this new camera, unless it looks like a digital copy of the S2, but there will surely be other people who could be disappointed.
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All Nikkor F will mount. Most likely they will need a CPU to make use of some functions.
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This seems ambiguous? "...from the digital era".
I wasn't aware of a clear distinction in the lens lineup between the 'film era' and the 'digital era' There were chipped lenses long before the D1, for example I had an early micro Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D which had contacts.
From what I understand there are lenses still made which have no chip.
I don't think a screw focus lens is a definition, there are of screw focus lenses post digital era I think...
So in this context what is meant by digital era lenses? Could it mean chipped lenses? If so Birna better get stocked up with Dandelions! ;D Chipping may experience a renaissance.
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All Nikkor F will mount. Most likely they will need a CPU to make use of some functions.
What exactly does a chipped lens do? I know it communicates lens focal length and max f stop which the camera can use for metering and for keeping record of which lens was used, but without it what function would be lost?
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The DX 10.5mm fisheye is screw drive AF and digital era. But if Nikon only make full-frame mirrorless then they might not care about providing autofocus for that.
The decision to support full functionality of all Nikkors or limit the support to certain features or certain types is not a trivial one. I hope they make an adapter with full support and another one which supports everything else but not autofocus on lenses that rely on body motor to drive the AF. This would allow the user to purchase the right adapter and only pay for the level of support that they need.
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The screw-driven AF can be given up, as the adapter needs an integrated motor. But the focus aid (by magnifying the image) and the metering should not be that difficult to support. All other mirrorless cameras "except for Nikon 1" support them even via a dumb mount adapter.
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A new Z-Bayonet with a bigger diameter as to be expected.
Now it really depends on how good the F-mount adapter it is. I hope it is otherwise this system might going to fail.
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Kenko made a 1.4 teleconverter for Nikon AF-D lenses. It passed through the camera body's focus motor connection. So it is technically possible for AF-D lenses to have autofocus support in the new mirrorless body without a motor in the mount adapter..
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I doubt that the body will have a screw drive so a pass-through will not do the trick. The bigger question is whether the adapter will actuate the auto diaphragm (of non-E lenses) which is more probable given that it can be a small and cheap part as it had to be in all previous SLRs regardless of how cheap they were.
My guess is the new Z mount camera-lens connection will be all-electronic like the E lenses so there will need to be gadgets for each of the legacy mechanical linkages (recall the the rabbit ears - done away with when Ai came out but there was still a mechanical aspect).
Tom
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Kenko made a 1.4 teleconverter for Nikon AF-D lenses. It passed through the camera body's focus motor connection. So it is technically possible for AF-D lenses to have autofocus support in the new mirrorless body without a motor in the mount adapter..
I don't think the new mirrorless body will have an AF motor.
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TC16a anybody?
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I doubt that the body will have a screw drive so a pass-through will not do the trick. The bigger question is whether the adapter will actuate the auto diaphragm (of non-E lenses) which is more probable given that it can be a small and cheap part as it had to be in all previous SLRs regardless of how cheap they were.
My guess is the new Z mount camera-lens connection will be all-electronic like the E lenses so there will need to be gadgets for each of the legacy mechanical linkages (recall the the rabbit ears - done away with when Ai came out but there was still a mechanical aspect).
Tom
If they have an adapter with AI aperture indexing, it would be pretty simple to make one with pre-AI indexing. It would be fun to put those old prongs to use again.
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The TC-16a has AF in the same way a normal screw-drive AF lens works, it won't focus unless the camera has a built-in AF motor.
On the other hand, the original TC-16 (no "a") for the F3-AF had the AF motor built into the TC. It's a rather bulky unit, even though the AF motor is quite small since it just needs to drive small elements in the TC:
(http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/tc16.jpg)
As Ilkka suggested, it could be possible that Nikon produces more than one F-mount adapter:
(V1) The simplest would be an all-electronic "E" adapter. It would provide AF only with AF-S, AF-P and AF-I lenses (no screw-drive AF) and automatic aperture only on lenses with the electronic "E" diaphragm. Since it has no mechanical linkage, the adapter could also support stop-down metering with other lenses with a manual aperture ring, so could be usable with pre-AI, AI and early AF lenses. It would not be compatible with G lenses. My feeling is that Nikon would consider this adapter too limited so would not go for this option.
(V2) More likely is an adapter as above which also has a built-in motor so that it can stop down lenses with the mechanical aperture linkage - which is the vast majority of F-mount lenses. It would AF with AF-S, AF-P and AF-I lenses (no screw-drive AF) and would support metering and automatic aperture with CPU lenses. However it would not support metering with other lenses. If the mechanical linkage could be disconnected it stop-down metering could be a possibility.
In theory it could also support metering and automatic aperture with AI-S lenses, provided lens CPU data is entered in the camera, the aperture is set via the camera (not lens), and the lens aperture ring is set to minimum aperture, but it would need to detect the AI-S indicator "scoop" on the lens. It would not work with AI and older lenses due to the non-linear aperture action. Given that Nikon has not made a camera which distinguishes AI from AI-S since the late 1980s, this seems unlikely.
(V3) If V2 also has an AI linkage, it would also offer metering with AI lenses. It would not be compatible with pre-AI lenses unless the AI tab could be flipped up.
(v4) The most comprehensive, complex, and expensive adaptor would also have a built-in AF motor like the old TC-16, to support screw-drive AF. This would provide backward compatibility with almost every F-mount lens made...
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Good summary of hypothetical adapters. Nikon could compensate for the loss of AF with screw drive lenses by having highly (sophisticated crunching of the data off the image sensor) discriminating (given the possibility of working aperture use) visual focusing aids.
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Thank you Roland, I had the TC16a, wasn't aware of the TC16.
Fine bit of theorising, will be very interesting to see what route Nikon take. Probably a middle route... Given the "digital age" hint.
Is this something a third party might develop... Perhaps in the form of a TC. Fascinating times.
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Full support for E and G lenses, and all other lenses with aperture rings to be used stopped down and without AF is maybe all we get...
The new mount will have it’s virtues for new lens designs. But it is a PITA to have to use an adapter for F-mount lenses, nothing fascinating on that at all.
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With the introduction of the a7 series Sony provided two Minolta Maxxum adapters, the fully electronic LA-EA3 and the LA-EA4 with a built in AF motor and phase detect AF sensors. Back then the original a7 models only had the slower contrast detect AF but nowadays they all have PD and it's safe to say that the Nikon will as well.
But a mirrorless platform will open up a whole new world of possibilities incl autofocus for manual focus lenses and the proper use of lenses from others brands or mounts.
Here's a very comprehensive overview from Brian Smith of all the adapters which became available over the years which will hopefully be ported to the Nikon platform:
https://briansmith.com/gear/sony-lens-adapters/
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Full support for E and G lenses, and all other lenses with aperture rings to be used stopped down and without AF is maybe all we get...
This may be the case but Nikon have patented an adapter with semitransparent mirror and AF module, and Sony's adapter which included the AF sensor module also provides the motor for screwdriver AF lenses for the A mount. They also have a different, simpler adapter available.
The new mount will have it’s virtues for new lens designs. But it is a PITA to have to use an adapter for F-mount lenses, nothing fascinating on that at all.
I don't think most users will want to use adapted lenses for most tasks in the long term, but the adapters may be useful / valuable in the short term and for specific tasks. In the long term what is important for this new system is the native lenses.
I think the best performance with F mount lenses (and not just handling) will likely continue to be with DSLRs. I personally consider mirrorless a specialized tool for specific tasks such as those requiring silent operation and prefer DSLRs for general photography especially of people subjects, due to the OVF. But other people have different ideas of usage and preferences for gear.
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«I remember two false news he send around with regard of the D850: (1) sensor produced by TowerJaz; (2) D850 with a hybrid viewfinder i.e OVF and EVF. But I like quite this atypical person.»
What Nikon is doing now, I think should let us speculate a bit like «the angry photographer». Don’t get me wrong, but I think that the predictions might get right in future models and Nikon has made desisions for coming/planned cameras allready.
1. This time it’s likely the sensor is made by Tower Jaz. The sensor will have abilities never seen before.
2. Nikon just discontinued the Nikon 1 system. Just remember they could make the mount waterproof, so will the z mount also be and maybe will see a Nikonos?
3. An EVF in the D850 just before the Z mount would be a stupid thing to do. But with an improved AF system in the mirrorless camera, Nikon should try to implement this in a F- mount pro-modell like the F6. This will allow a larger autofocus field. And if they implement a hybrid viewfinder, the camera will not only be quiet but much faster when using the EVF. I guess Nikon just has to come up whith something like this?
4. The Z-mount rumors tells the mount will be larger than the F-mount. There will be no mirrorless dx sensor, Nikon will only have small sensors in the F-mount. Instead my predictions is that Nikon will make a larger sensor to the z-mount in the future like the rumored mx sensor a few years ago. Cellphones are getting better and make the dx format less interesting than a large mx sensor. One thing I am shure about, Nikon does not want to include one more mount in there system, just getting rid of the Nikon 1 system.
5. The F and Z mount will put Nikon in a unike position melting things together in a better way that most of us could foresee or their competitors.
6. Lets hope Nikons engineers also will do like Leica and put special products in there line like the monochrome. My wish is for a f-mount fullspectrum camera with EVF. Use the place were the mirror used to be for interchangeable filterholders that make it possible to switch easily beetween infrared and normal photography. In a camera with dx sensor, there should be enough space to put in 4 filters at once... for example different infrared, UV or whatever. This last wish is not likely to happen, but a product like this would find many buyers at leat in this forum.
Use your brain out there, I have not come up with every possibility. The new system is said to come up with new industry standards in one or more ways... Nikon will not let us down with mediocer products! Personally I will drop the D850 and go for a z-mount body to supplement my beloved D800 and fullspectrum D600.
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And of course, a new pro model will be called D6.
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And.
7. An in body sensor stabilisation that is rumored, will likely work together with vr lenses.
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Please include my dream interchangeable 90º swiveling (eyelevel to right angle) EVF with large video-style eyecup on the wish list.
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And.
7. An in body sensor stabilisation that is rumored, will likely work together with vr lenses.
Or perhaps more likely, the two will fight?
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True to tradition, the impending arrival of a new product of note in the Nikon stable is fuelling plenty of speculation. I find much of the info appearing on NR stimulatiing, even useful, even given these are rumours.
But I failed to finish watching a recent Youtube by the tattooed guy proposing the Nikon ML could well be Medium-Format. Such misconstruals of what is known from patents and physics have been fanned on certain forums since at least last year. But IMHO there's a ray of light to be read in a current thread on DPR, where some lucid posts spell out:
(1) why the F-Mount and Z-Mount will enable complementary Nikon lineages to not only persist, but diversify;
(2) Why Nikon are uniquely placed to bring out an efficient adapter to use F-mount lenses on a Z-mount camera;
and (3) How this adapter can feasibly allow use of F-mount glass;
Nikon most certainly have the credentials to deliver yet anther impressive product line. The Nikon 1 and other technology points to this. There are intriguing strategic implications for Nikon as to how their Z-mount (this name is a rumour!) will position the company WRT the competition.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4304047 (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4304047)
I've taken the liberty of posting an instructive diagram that's appeared repeatedly in DPR threads over the past year. The picture that's worth the proverbial 1000 words.... Also fyi an approximated outline of the forthcoming Nikon FX Mirrorless derived from images glimpsed in the official releases.
Some here on NG may find this interesting. The synopsis on what is - and is not - possible in the F - Z adapter may also salve a few concerns (especially for those of us with big investments in Nikkors). I'm quietly confident Nikon will not let us down on this.
Obviously, we will know the real situation on 23rd August ;)
EDIT :- here are details suggested for new Nikon Z-Mount https://nikonrumors.com/2018/01/18/a-quick-update-on-the-rumored-nikon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-z-mount.aspx/ (https://nikonrumors.com/2018/01/18/a-quick-update-on-the-rumored-nikon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-z-mount.aspx/)
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A lot of emphasis is being put on sensor size and sensor performance. Honestly, for me....sensor performance has been just fine for the last 5 years. While I can appreciate any and all enhancements in all areas, my biggest concern now for newer cameras has been basically everything else. Battery life, ergonomics, AF enhancements.
I feel Nikon has the ability to do something I've wanted for a long time, which is for someone to finally marry the strengths of the DSLR systems with the strengths of the mirrorless systems. I think that Sony has gotten the closest, but their system has never appealed to me in any aspect. Nikon, even at its "lowest" has always just seemed "right" to me. Olympus comes a close second, but I think they took a lot of cues from the way Nikon works, which si probably why I prefer their mirrorless offerings to all others at this stage in the game. I've a hunch that Nikon is finally ready to jump whole hog into this next generation.
They may not hit a grand slam right out of the gate, but they certainly have the ability to hit a home run opening pitch.
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OK for me it's all about if the electronic viewfinder is usable at all or if it has the usual shortcomings,,,
Secondary would be if the Leica M lenses fit and work flawless, again without the usual shortcomings,,, ;)
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I, as stubborn anti-EVF guy, even felt that the latest 3.6+MP EVF used in Panasonic GH5/5S (I guess the same one is used in Sony A9, A7RIII, Fuji X-H1) was the game changer. I didn't really feel eye strain, the dark area and the edges of the frame can be fairly well descernible, the pixels were imperceptible.
I've heard that Leica SL uses a 44MP EVF. That could be even better, and Nikon should use one at least for their higher-end mirrorless model.
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Or perhaps more likely, the two will fight?
Reportedly with Sony the sensor based and optical stabilizers work well together but I have never seen a proper analysis of the effects separately and together (maybe it's not possible to turn them off separately?)
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Reportedly with Sony the sensor based and optical stabilizers work well together but I have never seen a proper analysis of the effects separately and together (maybe it's not possible to turn them off separately?)
Olympus and Panasonic have had dual IS systems that work together now for some time. Olympus' even touts that they get 6.5 stops of hand holdability out of the combo.
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I, as stubborn anti-EVF guy, even felt that the latest 3.6+MP EVF used in Panasonic GH5/5S (I guess the same one is used in Sony A9, A7RIII, Fuji X-H1) was the game changer. I didn't really feel eye strain, the dark area and the edges of the frame can be fairly well descernible, the pixels were imperceptible.
I've heard that Leica SL uses a 44MP EVF. That could be even better, and Nikon should use one at least for their higher-end mirrorless model.
It’s rather a 4.4 Mpx EVF. I had the SL 601 at home for a week. I was not impressed at all by this EVF, and completely unusable for action/sport photography.
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Could the bigger mount facilitate a square 36x36mm sensor?
Would be a very cool and new feature.
When looking at the current rumors I can’t find any new game changing features Nikon are rumored to deliver with their new mirroless platform. Or have I missed something?
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It’s rather a 4.4 Mpx EVF. I had the SL 601 at home for a week. I was not impressed at all by this EVF, and completely unusable for action/sport photography.
Oh, yes, 4.4MP! Apparently Digital Leica is not designed for shooting fast movements or movie. Also, the refresh rate (of both the sensor and the EVF) could be too low?
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i'd be happy even if it didn't have an EVF. I would just use my Nikon S finders and just focus with the LCD when I want to focus :o :o :o
everybody has different goals, for me it's just to use my Nikon S mount lenses ::)
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Could the bigger mount facilitate a square 36x36mm sensor?
Most images are used in a rectangular format rather than square, and a square sensor would be expensive and much of the image would be thrown away when making a rectangular image. Furthermore existing FX lenses would not give a full image.
When looking at the current rumors I can’t find any new game changing features Nikon are rumored to deliver with their new mirroless platform.
Well, Nikon have released very little in terms of details of the camera.
Why does everything need to be "game changing?"
I think if the cameras work well and are pleasing to use, they will probably sell well.
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Why does everything need to be "game changing?"
The marketing department wants to keep their job.
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Why does everything need to be "game changing?"
I think if the cameras work well and are pleasing to use, they will probably sell well.
Fully agree, I'd rather have a working camera than have cool new features on a broken camera system.
But I remember vaguely that Nikon was planning some never seen before features which makes me rather curious what that could be :)
I can only come up with a new sensor size or technology, global shutter (yes please), replaceable sensor filterpack for IR, UV, etc (yes please), etc.
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The marketing department wants to keep their job.
Plus how is Nikon else going to convince the DSLR crowd and /or those whom moved to the Sony or Fuji mirrorless ecosystems to the new Nikon platform?
My move to mirrorless was driven by the urge to cherrypick legendary lenses cross different camera makes and mounts but Sony's support was rather lacking in this regard as their main focus was selling new lenses. Simple Nikon features like the ability to register which cpu-less lens is mounted for a proper EXIF registration would appeal greatly to the manual focus crowd as well as adapters for all the lenses Nikon ever made like the Nikon-S rangefinder lenses which could finally be used again on a digital Nikon FX camera.
These are not game changing features but really desirable ones for a big part of the would be customers of the new platform :)
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Plus how is Nikon else going to convince the DSLR crowd and /or those whom moved to the Sony or Fuji mirrorless ecosystems to the new Nikon platform?
The trend is towards mirrorless increasing its market share and Nikon want a part of this business.
I don't think they want DSLR users to move to the new mount but offer it to those who want a mirrorless.
My move to mirrorless was driven by the urge to cherrypick legendary lenses cross different camera makes and mounts
I don't believe Nikon want this to happen. I am sure Nikon want customers to buy new Nikon lenses for the new mirrorless camera and certainly not third party.
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I am sure that the mirrorless Nikon will find many enthusiastic buyers but I will be staying with my fabulous D5: a machine which never fails to deliver exactly what I ask of it under all weather and physical conditions — day and night.
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The trend is towards mirrorless increasing its market share and Nikon want a part of this business.
I don't think they want DSLR users to move to the new mount but offer it to those who want a mirrorless.
I don't believe Nikon want this to happen. I am sure Nikon want customers to buy new Nikon lenses for the new mirrorless camera and certainly not third party.
+1
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The trend is towards mirrorless increasing its market share and Nikon want a part of this business.
I don't think they want DSLR users to move to the new mount but offer it to those who want a mirrorless.
I don't believe Nikon want this to happen. I am sure Nikon want customers to buy new Nikon lenses for the new mirrorless camera and certainly not third party.
The 1 series reflects exactly that , oddball limited functionality when used with the ft1 adapter:
ie: longest exposure on the 1 series when using the FT1 adapter is 1 second , and 30 secs with native 1 lenses
ie: AF with F mount afs lenses is limited to the center focus point
Lets wait another 4 weeks for the formal announcement
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Unless there is a quantum leap in EVF functionality, the camera holds little interest to me. For the majority of my photography all current EVF's are not suitable. Although for a small percentage of my work an EVF would be invaluable.
Thankfully Nikon seem committed to supplying OVF camera's for the foreseeable future.
If the expected Z to F mount adapters are practical. I imagine Nikon will adopt the Z mount for all future FX camera's.
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Thankfully Nikon seem committed to supplying OVF camera's for the foreseeable future.
If the expected Z to F mount adapters are practical. I imagine Nikon will adopt the Z mount for all future FX camera's.
I don’t think you will see Z mount on all cameras. Main reason for DSLRs is it does not have enough depth to accommodate a flapping mirror. And if you take the diameter of the Z mount and mount it at same distance from focal plane as F mount (call it the F+) then you’ve created a camera which can’t use legacy f mount lenses.
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Lets wait another 4 weeks for the formal announcement
Armando, I'm with you on waiting to see. I still have hopes that Nikon will surprise me, like the D3/D700.
I really do not want or need a camera that is trying to be a Smartphone .
Cheers
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Most images are used in a rectangular format rather than square, and a square sensor would be expensive and much of the image would be thrown away when making a rectangular image.
.......
If I may comment on this, just as a heads up for Creativity over Numbers :) You are of course right in your line of thought for what os 99.9% the actual product we will see! I agree with that ;)
So you argue that the square Hasselblad images where a waste of area,,, Your line of thought here is a little tightly bound to a cool calculation of numbers, rather than freedom to express yourself ;)
Sure as the photographer you decide on the crop, in principle often this is the case yes, however in reality for many photographers they deliver an image to be used elsewhere, where the image is cropped and used together with text graphics etc. so a lot of the times it's anway cropped if we like it or not. Sometimes this is know before the shoot, but often not so I usually alway have to shoot the same subjects both on portrait and landscape orientation to make sure there is both versions,,,
There are several benefits of starting out with a square image, your freedom to crop in post processing is greatly enhanced the more area you have top and bottom or right left, very often layout or design requires many different shapes apart , not just a rectangle.
Art directors and the like, really like to have the ability to crop, and the high MP count of today greatly gives more opportunity for this.
As I recall several of the digital Medium format cameras has formats, sensors that are more square-ish that rectangular.
I see a huge benefit of supplying a square image as a base for some medium format jobs,,,
Square images could be used much more creatively especially with the two industri standard formats that are rapidly taking over much of the way we see images, smartphones and wide computer and television displays, sure rotating the smartphone does work but functionality suffers,,, most app's really doesn't support rotating fully.
I often see these 'auto' generated square thumbnails online, often resulting in very silly looking images :o if not a human has been involved,,,
Most likely there will not be a square sensor in the new Nikon, i agree, but please leave us the freedom to crop as we please ;D
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/745/23567270005_3dea1fd88a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/BUyqit)IMG_0546 (https://flic.kr/p/BUyqit) by Erik Gunst Lund (https://www.flickr.com/photos/erik_lund/), on Flickr
My favorite layouter
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May be a thought should be given to a circular sensor 😉
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Yes that would be the next step, especially for the full frame fisheye images ;) if they designed a lens that would use it's full potential - Wow - Makes me miss the 6mm f/2.8 even though one actually crop away a huge amount of pixels on FX,,,
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If you're happy to absorb the cost of the larger sensor that is of course fine. Film could be relatively inexpensively cut into different sizes, but with digital, increasing the area of the sensor is much more expensive (in terms of relative cost). Of course, if you shot action with 6cm x 17cm film, that would get expensive quickly, so it depends on what you do with it.
The D850 does permit you to record 1:1 aspect ratio images (24mm x 24mm) by selecting the image area "1:1". 4K video is has an aspect ratio of 1.9:1, so today the camera manufacturers have to consider that as well.
The market for FX is in the hundreds of thousands of cameras per year. The medium format market is, as far as I know, a few thousand cameras per year. Thus the cost that the individual customer has to pay for medium format is very high.
I'm all for diversity, and I wouldn't mind at all if someone made a square sensor high resolution digital camera, but no one seems to dare to do that. I can only assume that this is a result of market research. Even the digital MF is typically 3:4 and not 1:1. I believe this is because photographers are happier switching between vertical and horizontal orientations than having to pay so much extra for sensor area that won't make it to the print. Of course, if a 33mm x44mm camera has a 1:1 crop mode then it would be perhaps easy enough to shoot in the way you prefer.
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If I may comment on this, just as a heads up for Creativity over Numbers :)
,,,,
More numbers doesn't count 8)
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More numbers doesn't count 8)
If numbers don't matter then the D850's 1:1 mode should do everything you want. I'm sure Nikon can implement a similar feature in their new mirrorless camera.
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If numbers don't matter then the D850's 1:1 mode should do everything you want. I'm sure Nikon can implement a similar feature in their new mirrorless camera.
Very true! ;) and that is how I use my D810
Except the viewfinder and rear display could be optimised for the square design.
OK - Sorry for side tracking the thread! Let's get back to the Z
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Like several DSLR dependents I'm in two minds about the impending arrival of usable mirrorless. Based on what ML cameras I've handled, the absence of high quality EVF, IBIS and silent-shutter (in the Nikon ML) will stop any purchase. As keeps being stated, before I tick any of these boxes, F-mount compatibility has to be a winner - including with AFD Nikkors. Here I'm also confident - see links etc above that Nikon will deliver on a top quality Z-F adapter....but enough ink has already been split on this topic...
As a wildlife shooter, having the through-the-lens usage with silent shutter is a major attraction. This will be a killer feature for photographing some species, where one strives always to avoid disturbing the subject. The reduced weight of ML is also attractive. The drop in weight from a gripped D850 or D500 to my Df sure is tangible. I'm confident Nikon will pull off a great job on the ergonomics of their new mirrorless, but I do hope they prune its gross mass.
OTH the D850 was the first DSLR to my knowledge to build in useful features standard on mirrorless: electronic shutter & silent shooting albeit in Lv only. One hears hybrid viewfinders in DSLRs are a possibility. It is not impossible that future DSLRs will have IBIS, on-sensor PDAF - wonderful for MF glass. Plus higher FPS etc. The argument has already been made somewhere here on NG that among its many strengths, the D850 is the first in the line of "hybrid" DSRs. And Nikon hold the ace cards to develop such a hybrid ;)
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You can add an external display or EVF to a DSLR using the HDMI or USB port. These are available and are widely used for video. Two weeks ago when I was at Pori Jazz, I saw one Sony mirrorless camera with 70-200/2.8 Nikkor attached, and the videographer wasn't using the EVF; he had an external display mounted on the hot shoe and he was using that to monitor the footage. There was also a Red Dragon with EF 70-200/2.8, it seems adapted lenses are really common nowadays for video work.
A "hybrid" OVF/EVF would result in a reduced quality viewfinder and thus I would not be happy with such a contraption. The reason for the quality loss is that the EVF would be positioned at the front of the prism and thus the coatings would have to be removed to permit the light from the EVF to reach the ocular on the other side of the prism. Removal of the coatings would lead to loss of light when using the OVF.
A better solution is to have interchangeable viewfinder modules as was available earlier in 1-digit F series Nikons (until and including the F5). However, this also apparently results in some loss of viewfinder brightness;; according to Nikon this was the reason why the F6 was made without interchangeable viewfinders. I never owned an F6 but the F100 viewfinder was appreciably brighter than that of the F5. I suspect the focusing screen was a part of the reason; the F5 viewfinder was easy to manual focus with but the image was a bit dimmer.
I think it's better to just use mirrorless for those applications where mirrorless is advantageous and correspondingly for DSLRs. A hybrid isn't necessarily the "best of both worlds", it could be seen as the "worst of both worlds" depending on what the photographer values most. A hybrid camera with reduced viewfinder quality but increased weight (due to having the components for two viewfinders, only part of which would be shared) would not satisfy me. I would prefer to keep mirrorless mirrorless and DSLR DSLR, and if necessary, maintain two systems and choose depending on the requirements of the task. One of the main advantages of mirrorless is smaller size and lower weight, and perhaps the main advantage of DSLRs is the high-quality optical viewfinder. A hybrid camera would give neither of these benefits.
I totally understand the benefits of silent shooting and once the electronic shutter is fast enough to minimize rolling shutter, I will likely be happy to purchase such a camera and lenses for applications that require silence, but it won't be my main camera due to the lack of OVF. I generally think of mirrorless ILC cameras as just one type of camera among others and having this choice is important to users. But not necessarily in the same camera. Of course, if someone wants to make a hybrid camera they're welcome to do so, and then we can evaluate it on its merits and drawbacks.
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as much as I want to buy it i can't afford it :( just got the bill for my daughter's preschool and it's going to cost just as much :o :o :o
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I have always liked square images and think a square sensor would be a good idea. We just need to keep in mind two practical limitations; current lenses (Except tilt/shift) will show some degree of vignette on a 36mm square sensor, and the costs for larger sensors do not scale linearly.
Preference for image aspect ratio is varied across the population, and some subjects are better suited for a more elongated rectangle.
With those considerations in mind, (optimizing for cost and lack of vignetting, while still pleasing most photographers) the optimal size sensor would end up pretty close to,where we are. A 36mm square sensor would be more costly and have worse performance in the corners. If we reduce the size so corners are good, then people who like traditional aspect ratios will complain that their sensor is smaller than it was before. I have no doubt that if all we had were square sensors, many people would be clamoring for a wide format.
With the abundance of pixels we have these days, maybe thinking will change, but I just don’t see square sensors making sense. Circular sensors are unlikely due to the way sensors are made.
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I have always liked square images and think a square sensor would be a good idea. We just need to keep in mind two practical limitations; current lenses (Except tilt/shift) will show some degree of vignette on a 36mm square sensor, and the costs for larger sensors do not scale linearly.
Preference for image aspect ratio is varied across the population, and some subjects are better suited for a more elongated rectangle.
With those considerations in mind, (optimizing for cost and lack of vignetting, while still pleasing most photographers) the optimal size sensor would end up pretty close to,where we are. A 36mm square sensor would be more costly and have worse performance in the corners. If we reduce the size so corners are good, then people who like traditional aspect ratios will complain that their sensor is smaller than it was before. I have no doubt that if all we had were square sensors, many people would be clamoring for a wide format.
With the abundance of pixels we have these days, maybe thinking will change, but I just don’t see square sensors making sense. Circular sensors are unlikely due to the way sensors are made.
There are rumours running rife the Nikon mirrorless camera may be MF. Obviously subject to confirmation, the Nikon's Z-Mount patent communicated by NR in January has an internal throat diameter of 49mm. This will house a FX 36 x 24 sensor = 43.3mm diagonal, and have the room for the lens shell and IBIS etc.
A 36 x 36 sensor has 50.9mm diagonal....
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Nikon stated in their announcement that the new mirrorlsss camera will be FX.
Rumor <> stuff people just make up in their heads. Obviously this talk of a medium format camera is just fiction.
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The current FX 1.5:1 aspect ratio (AR), while invented in a hurry by Barnack and company to utilize 8 perforations' worth of the already available 35mm motion picture film, turns out to be well proportioned for those that want to crop wider or squarer.
There'll be no square sensor.
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My impression on the Hasselblad was that it had to be square format in order to be both a landscape and portrait camera at the same time; handholding it in portrait mode, especially with the waist level finder, wouldn’t be that convenient... ::)
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Nikon stated in their announcement that the new mirrorlsss camera will be FX.
Rumor <> stuff people just make up in their heads. Obviously this talk of a medium format camera is just fiction.
Absolutely. Nikon does not have a current MF lens lineup. Im not saying they won’t end up there sometime in the future but they have stated compatibility with F mount lenses which do not cover MF. The teasers also show what looks to be a rectangular FF sensor.
There are people out there who thrive on views and controversy. Ignore them.
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The current FX 1.5:1 aspect ratio (AR), while invented in a hurry by Barnack and company to utilize 8 perforations' worth of the already available 35mm motion picture film, turns out to be well proportioned for those that want to crop wider or squarer.
Not sure that it is always "well proportioned" ... maybe it is ok for landscapes but I often find 1.5:1 (3:2) ratio too narrow for portraiture or subjects like flowers, a "squarer" format 4:3 would be more suitable. Actually, I often thought 1:sqrt(2) (1:1.41) would be ideal...
I fully expect the new mirrorless camera will have a traditional FX 36x24mm sensor, although in theory they could use a different aspect ratio with the same image circle such as 35x25mm, 28x33mm or 30.5x30.5mm :o
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Many lenses have rectangular masks to cut unwanted light, so probably a square sensor of equal diagonal would not be covered.
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Good point.
Another possibility is a slightly oversize sensor which can be cropped in different ways to give different aspect ratios while still using the full image circle. A larger sensor is obviously more expensive so this would only be found on high-end models. A larger sensor is more difficult for IBIS, so they might drop this feature ... overall I think this option is not likely ...
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Obviously, if a new medium format camera comes out from Nikon with the Z mount and a larger sensor than 24x36 they would design new Nikkor lenses for it!
However the old F-mount FX lenses would be compatible, you would just need a crop dow to 24x36 for almost all of them, except PC lenses but their movements would not be possible to utilize fully either.
Seems very strange to me that Nikon go up in size/diameter for the Z-mount if they don't do it for optical reasons, sensor size, then why? An larger diameter makes for larger more heavy build mount itself as well as the lenses almost no matter what you do, also you need more material to make it similar stiffness, all pointing at more weight and bulk,,,
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You can add an external display or EVF to a DSLR using the HDMI or USB port. These are available and are widely used for video. Two weeks ago when I was at Pori Jazz, I saw one Sony mirrorless camera with 70-200/2.8 Nikkor attached, and the videographer wasn't using the EVF; he had an external display mounted on the hot shoe and he was using that to monitor the footage. There was also a Red Dragon with EF 70-200/2.8, it seems adapted lenses are really common nowadays for video work.
A "hybrid" OVF/EVF would result in a reduced quality viewfinder and thus I would not be happy with such a contraption. The reason for the quality loss is that the EVF would be positioned at the front of the prism and thus the coatings would have to be removed to permit the light from the EVF to reach the ocular on the other side of the prism. Removal of the coatings would lead to loss of light when using the OVF.
A better solution is to have interchangeable viewfinder modules as was available earlier in 1-digit F series Nikons (until and including the F5). However, this also apparently results in some loss of viewfinder brightness;; according to Nikon this was the reason why the F6 was made without interchangeable viewfinders. I never owned an F6 but the F100 viewfinder was appreciably brighter than that of the F5. I suspect the focusing screen was a part of the reason; the F5 viewfinder was easy to manual focus with but the image was a bit dimmer.
I think it's better to just use mirrorless for those applications where mirrorless is advantageous and correspondingly for DSLRs. A hybrid isn't necessarily the "best of both worlds", it could be seen as the "worst of both worlds" depending on what the photographer values most. A hybrid camera with reduced viewfinder quality but increased weight (due to having the components for two viewfinders, only part of which would be shared) would not satisfy me. I would prefer to keep mirrorless mirrorless and DSLR DSLR, and if necessary, maintain two systems and choose depending on the requirements of the task. One of the main advantages of mirrorless is smaller size and lower weight, and perhaps the main advantage of DSLRs is the high-quality optical viewfinder. A hybrid camera would give neither of these benefits.
I totally understand the benefits of silent shooting and once the electronic shutter is fast enough to minimize rolling shutter, I will likely be happy to purchase such a camera and lenses for applications that require silence, but it won't be my main camera due to the lack of OVF. I generally think of mirrorless ILC cameras as just one type of camera among others and having this choice is important to users. But not necessarily in the same camera. Of course, if someone wants to make a hybrid camera they're welcome to do so, and then we can evaluate it on its merits and drawbacks.
That is exactly the case, Nikons own words:
Nikon will continue to lead imaging culture with the launch of the new mirrorless camera, as well as with the continued development of Nikon digital-SLR cameras, providing consumers with the choices to enjoy the unique values of either system.
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That is exactly the case, Nikons own words:
Nikon will continue to lead imaging culture with the launch of the new mirrorless camera, as well as with the continued development of Nikon digital-SLR cameras, providing consumers with the choices to enjoy the unique values of either system.
Well, I don't necessarily disagree, but that was exactly the same as what Nikon said when they released F6, if I remember correctly. But no further film SLR was released. So, only time will tell. ;)
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He he yes I remember, they stated something similar :)
At the launch of F6 a digital revolution started for DSLR cameras,,, I really don't see mirrorless as such a revolution ;) I see their statement like a safety fall back, that when/if the Pro crowd starts to criticize the new mirrorless wonder from Nikon and deem it unusable, for some reason,,, they can fall back on the DSLR series.
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Seems very strange to me that Nikon go up in size/diameter for the Z-mount if they don't do it for optical reasons, sensor size, then why? An larger diameter makes for larger more heavy build mount itself as well as the lenses almost no matter what you do, also you need more material to make it similar stiffness, all pointing at more weight and bulk,,,
Larger aperture lenses is one stated reason (f/1.2, f/1.0, etc.), other benefits include possibilities to make lenses with less vignetting, less need to offset the microlenses on the sensor (if the light comes more symmetrically around the edges of the frame), greater freedom of movements for PC lenses, more space for adapters etc.
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Well, I don't necessarily disagree, but that was exactly the same as what Nikon said when they released F6, if I remember correctly. But no further film SLR was released. So, only time will tell. ;)
I think quite a lot of people were surprised that Nikon would release the F6 at all, at the time it had became clear that digital would be the mainstream medium for photography. Most of the workflow had moved to digital systems already and people were scanning their film for the purposes of making prints, publishing etc. The scanning step was time-consuming and could be avoided by using digital cameras.
I don't see mirrorless as a replacement for DSLR, however; this is a different situation. Both are digital cameras, just as fast in terms of workflow and they give similar results (in terms of the technical image quality). However, the shooting experience is different and this part is very important to me.
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Larger aperture lenses is one stated reason (f/1.2, f/1.0, etc.), other benefits include possibilities to make lenses with less vignetting, less need to offset the microlenses on the sensor (if the light comes more symmetrically around the edges of the frame), greater freedom of movements for PC lenses, more space for adapters etc.
Yes I read all that, It just doesn't justify to go with such a huge opening just for 24x36mm - When looking at what is possible with for instance the Leica M mount or even the F-mount
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43mm is the diagonal for FX; 49mm (?) the mount opening if I understood correctly.
I now realize that in the NR page describing the patent 49mm is the "external diameter" of the mount so does this mean the outer part of the metal ring? In that case there wouldn't be all that much extra space around a 35mm sensor.
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/01/11/nikons-upcoming-mirrorless-camera-rumored-to-have-a-new-z-mount-with-16mm-flange-focal-distance.aspx/
A 2.9mm difference in diameter vs. the Sony E mount. This together with the 2 mm shorter flange distance would maybe leave enough space for E mount lenses to be adapted to be used in the new Nikon mount. If the dimensions are true, it would mean that the new Nikon mirrorless lenses can't be used on Sony cameras (at least not with infinity focus).
Correction: they now say the 49mm is the diameter of the opening.
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Actually we only have rumored opening diagonal/diameter,,, ;)
I agree with you statement, that is the reasoning I have as well.
Why make such a great camera/mount and then only advantage if you also design all the lenses to a higher standard since none of the current F mount lenses will suddenly/magically become different in performance re this,,, These lenses will be huge, glass diameter, very well APO corrected and therefore very very expensive,,, Only Pros or very wealthy enthusiasts would buy these,,,
The cat's eyes highlights bokeh is only followed by a tiny fraction of photographers, the majority by far prefer smooth bokeh rendering of out of focus fore and backgroud.
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Yes I read all that, It just doesn't justify to go with such a huge opening just for 24x36mm - When looking at what is possible with for instance the Leica M mount or even the F-mount
The focal plane to lens mount distance is reported to be only 16mm - very short. Not sure why, maybe to give enough space for the F-mount adapter?.
The short distance gives very little space for optics at the rear of the lens to enlarge the image circle so that it covers the sensor, so the opening must be large enough to cover the sensor without mechanical vignetting, with some space to spare for IBIS, lens mount etc.
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Actually we only have rumored opening diagonal/diameter,,, ;)
I agree with you statement, that is the reasoning I have as well.
Why make such a great camera/mount and then only advantage if you also design all the lenses to a higher standard since none of the current F mount lenses will suddenly/magically become different in performance re this,,, These lenses will be huge, glass diameter, very well APO corrected and therefore very very expensive,,, Only Pros or very wealthy enthusiasts would buy these,,,
The cat's eyes highlights bokeh is only followed by a tiny fraction of photographers, the majority by far prefer smooth bokeh rendering of out of focus fore and backgroud.
Release of a new Nikon camera has always catalyzed much speculation and debate....the Df, D5, D850. Only the D500 slipped in hardly noticed ;)
And now it's a whole new Mount ;D ;D
Obviously, any of the more reasonable suggestions entail elements of guesswork, based on dimensions given in Nikon's patent of a new mount (NR reported this as the Z-mount in January). The strategic implications sure are intriguing - and here's the diagram, which suggests implications for Canon, Sony etc who've already committed to their respective ML mounts: ".... Beyond matters of the Z-F adapter, the short register set in the Z mount dimensions will restrict use of new Z-Nikkors on other mounts - i.e. to adapt to rival ML Mounts." https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61445441 (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61445441)
So we wait for 23rd August. But , I'm confident those of us with decades of investment in the best of the classic and current F-Mount Nikon-Fit glass need not lose sleep on compatibility with the forthcoming Nikon mirrorless....Nikon, itself, cannot afford to antagonize its clients
here's that schematic comparing relevant lens mounts, with possible Z-Mount
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I completely agree - I'm just giving a heads up that you will need huge lenses for there to be any advantage.
Edit to add, I don't see why VR in the body, IBIS would require a larger diameter mount.
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I completely agree - I'm just giving a heads up that you will need huge lenses for there to be any advantage.
The rear part of the lens will be wider but the short flange distance may permit an otherwise simpler optical construction and that could lead to a smaller overall size of the lens (wide angles mainly).
There have been patents for a new 35/1.2 and 50/0.9 the latter of which is very large.
Yes, the market will be small. But the rumored lenses included 24-70/4 which would seem more mainstream.
Edit to add, I don't see why VR in the body, IBIS would require a larger diameter mount.
Edit: Ah, now I see I misunderstood your point.
IBIS at least theoretically would require a larger circle of coverage from the lens so that when the sensor is moved, the lens can still produce a full image without cropping. A larger mount may make it easier to achieve a larger image circle. However, I don't know how large the range of movement in IBIS is.
IBIS is said to be effective against rotation of the camera (i.e. when pressing the shutter button, the camera tends to rotate a bit around the optical axis) so it's more flexible than the X- and Y-compensation of conventional stabilization systems. Also it would permit stabilization with lenses that don't support it in the lens. People seem to be very happy with the latest generations of IBIS.
I think IBIS has the disadvantage that transfer of heat from the sensor to the body and out of it would be more difficult than when the sensor is fixed to the body. This is seen when doing long exposures at night, there are reports of increasing noise with IBIS cameras compared to those where there is no sensor stabilization. Apart from long exposures, this may show up in extended video use.
I think there are pros and cons to both sensor and lens based stabilization. Lens based VR is said to adversely affect bokeh, though I must say I haven't seen this effect myself. Also the VR system may break in which case it is a trip to service. My 70-200/4 came with faulty VR unit out of the box; Nikon repaired it under warranty. There was a rattle which I noticed immediately when starting to use the lens, but the lens did work, only in cold temperatures did the VR actually malfunction. Service found faulty VR system as source of the rattle and replaced almost everything in the lens.
Stabilization is not critical to my use but it is occasionally of value. I don't generally base purchase decisions around the presence of or absence of stabilization because I feel that a lens or camera without it may be more durable, but sometimes the technology does have practical benefits.
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Actually we only have rumored opening diagonal/diameter,,, ;)
Okay, I thought it came from a patent but I didn't read the patent text myself. :) Let's see how it turns out when the products are available for testing.
These lenses will be huge, glass diameter, very well APO corrected and therefore very very expensive,,, Only Pros or very wealthy enthusiasts would buy these,,,
Maybe the enlargement of the mount diameter can help design simpler high-performance lenses that would not be so expensive.
In any case it seems that Nikon have largely given up on the broader consumer market and want to target enthusiasts and professionals with their products. These might be expensive and Nikon do predict reduced sales volume but maybe the profitability is expected to be good. As the overall dedicated camera market dwindles, this might be a good strategy. Fewer units sold but with higher quality.
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Thank you for your thoughts!
I must say I have never seen a fault as such in the VR system itself, only in the resulting images occasionally.
The VR in the latest 24-70 AFS f/2.8 is remarkable effective on the D810 gripped.
Less consumer, higher quality - Seems like a good strategy.
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This recent essay on PL is quite a good summary of the stakes and possibilities:
https://photographylife.com/nikon-mirrorless-camera-wishlist (https://photographylife.com/nikon-mirrorless-camera-wishlist)
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Many lenses have rectangular masks to cut unwanted light, so probably a square sensor of equal diagonal would not be covered.
Though its highly likely we’ll get a regular FX sized sensor the technical limitations of older lenses doesn’t have to be an impediment for bigger sensor sizes. With the introduction of the first FX cameras Nikon provided the option to automatically crop the sensor when a DX lens was mounted or to ignore this for the lenses which worked (partly) well outside the DX area.
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Nikon have posted a new video teaser of the new mount https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuQW_v_Owc4
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not seeing the F made me cry a bit :o :o :o
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Thanks will :)
The line "A Gateway to a New Dimension" can of course be interpreted in multiple ways, incl a new sensor shape or size ;)
Here's a quick screenshot of the new camera and mount.
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Looking at the eyes for the straps the camera looks tiny :o
Indeed, nice ref to a new dimension 8) he he
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Tiny camera with a big mouth :)
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The forthcoming native AF lenses for the new mount will most probably feature manual “focus by wire”. The reason could be simple: for mirrorless there is no requirement anymore that manual focussing is possible with the camera in off position (and thus no finder active), and focus by wire is simpler and cheaper than the DSLR AF-S design with the mechanical clutch between focus ring and focus lens group.
Hopefully Nikon will keep the seamless switch between manual and auto focus as is possible with the AF-S lenses; manual focus always active, and AF (single or continuous) can be initiated at any moment by pressing the AF-ON button.
I am not aware of any mirrorless that can it it exactly like this, Nikon can make all the difference here.
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,,, the DSLR AF-S design with the mechanical clutch between focus ring and focus lens group.
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Not sure what you mean by mechanical clutch ?
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The mechanism that couples focus ring and focus lens group, and that can be overridden anytime by the AF motor. So a kind of “clutch”.
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I noticed the new mount still will use the space-saving lateral contact points camera-lens. Thus available space inside the camera bayonet is maximised, which should help designing fast lenses.
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There are several different designs of incorporating SWM into AFS Nikkor Lenses.
The SWM ring motor lenses don't have a mechanism that would be described as a clutch,,,
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There is a uni-directional coupling between the focus ring and the focus lens group. Turn the focus ring and the focus lensgroup will move. But the other way around, move the focus lens group through the AF motor and the focus ring will NOT move.
This uni-directional coupling works in off mode, so it is “mechanical”. I call it a “clutch”, feel free to give it a better name...
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I would prefer to have mechanical connection between the focus ring and the focus group in the lens, because in focus-by-wire systems there can sometimes be slight delays which make the manual focusing experience less precise and less predictable. A well-implemented MF mechanism is excellent but a poorly implemented one may be worse than electrical adjustment of focus.
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There is a uni-directional coupling between the focus ring and the focus lens group. Turn the focus ring and the focus lensgroup will move. But the other way around, move the focus lens group through the AF motor and the focus ring will NOT move.This uni-directional coupling works in off mode, so it is “mechanical”. I call it a “clutch”, feel free to give it a better name...
Obviously we don't share the same terminology for "mechanical" :)
I just don't hope the new native Nikkor lenses will be focus by wire! I believe the fully electronic design of AFS Nikkor lense with SWM ring motors are at the peak of performance possible currently, state of the art speed and precision.
I'm not so fond about the gearbox design with SWM motor, but they work adequately for the short focal length AFS f/1.4 series,,,
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Yes. Focus by wire is a badly defined tool
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On very last Nikon teaser: 4 bolts only to tight way wider mount to the body. Is it enough to keep it firmly? To carry old day long heavy 200-400 or such, with adapter? When it started "play"? Look at last Sony: 6 bolts, for the reason, of course, to prevent body deformation. Yeap, it making me alert. LZ
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On very last Nikon teaser: 4 bolts only to tight way wider mount to the body. Is it enough to keep it firmly? To carry old day long heavy 200-400 or such, with adapter? When it started "play"? Look at last Sony: 6 bolts, for the reason, of course, to prevent body deformation. Yeap, it making me alert. LZ
Well you're never supposed to carry such a lens from the body. It's stated in the lens manual. Always, when lifting the lens + camera, you support the lens.
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Well you're never supposed to carry such a lens from the body. It's stated in the lens manual. Always, when lifting the lens + camera, you support the lens.
Manual, theory and reality are not the same. Even my much lighter 80-400, with adapter, will create, sometimes, very heavy turning moment for the new smaller body. 4 bolts is not enough for way lighter body.
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It depends on how thick the mount ring itself is how many screws are needed and how large they need be and also the chassis material, thread type etc.
Edit to add:
Here the warning about D810 about the chassis material, or lack of it,,,
http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,3633.0.html
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It depends on how thick the mount ring itself is how many screws are needed and how large they need be and also the chassis material, thread type etc.
Edit to add:
Here the warning about D810 about the chassis material, or lack of it,,,
http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,3633.0.html
Of course, but sources stay that the new body is way lighter. Better say now then be sorry later. Will see. LZ
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Manual, theory and reality are not the same. Even my much lighter 80-400, with adapter, will create, sometimes, very heavy turning moment for the new smaller body. 4 bolts is not enough for way lighter body.
Well, if the user doesn't follow the instructions in the manual any breaking of the equipment is then the user's fault and not Nikon's. IMO lifting a heavy lens from the body is just asking for trouble.
With a small body, I don't think it would even be possible in practice to hold a 80-400 pointing forward and composing a subject without holding the lens. I don't see why this would be an issue since normal usage necessitates supporting the lens.
A wider mount means there is less force applied to the screw from gravity applied on the lens if the lens is pointed at a direction normal to the direction of gravity. I.e. if you point it forwards the momentum from the lens applies a smaller force on an individual screw in a wide mount than a narrow mount. So the situation should be a bit easier on a wide mount than on a narrow mount such as the F mount. If you hang the lens downwards from the camera then in that case the force would be the same (irrespective of the diameter of the mount), but the weight of the adapter would be added to the weight of the lens, of course.
The 80-400 + an adapter could get to the weight range where damage could occur, or not. I think probably Nikon will give some warnings about it if they regard it appropriate.
Both the F and EF mounts have four screws.
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Of course, but sources stay that the new body is way lighter.
That may be but taking out the pentaprism, AF motor, mirror mechanism etc. from the body will reduce the weight of the body considerably already. I would expect that if Nikon make a high end mirrorless body, it will have a metal interior chassis (though probably not very thick).
I believe the composite mirror box was used because it maintains calibration better (when metal is deformed, it stays deformed) and this led to the ability to make more accurate AF while maintaining light weight. However, the threads in that material were not very durable, it seems, so it was abandoned in the D850.
Of all the camera bodies I've owned in the 2007- era, the D810 required the least AF fine tuning. Both the D5 and D850 require more (in terms of average adjustment as well as variability between lenses).
A mirrorless body doesn't need fine tuning or AF calibration so they might as well use lightweight metal to minimize the chance of threads coming off upon impact.
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After my D810 returned from the dreaded "impact damage" repair, it required zero AF adjustments. Hopefully we will see lens coupling to an all metal body with the new mirrorless.
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From the enlarged frontal image captured in today’s Nikon teaser, I get a correction ratio of 1.7 for Overall Width of Flash Hotshoe Mount (21.1mm in my Df, D500 and D850), and I also calculated a correction ratio of 1.7 for Greatest Width of the Mirrorless Grip (42.5 and 43 in my D500 and D850, respectively). This is measuring across the mount, grip and flash mount of the Nikon image with dial calipers to closest 0.1mm, and outer extent of this ML camera with a steel rule to 1mm.
I estimate the Overall Width = 149mm and Total Height = 114mm of this Nikon mirrorless. Total Grip Height = approx. 91mm: compared to 95mm and 98mm in my D500 and D850, respectively. Outer-Most Width of Z-Mount = 72mm, Throat = 62mm. 59mm across inside of the Bayonet Lugs..... So width close to D500 and width of D750.
Assuming measuring error of the Hotshoe is 1mm wider - then corresponding change= 70.7; 60; 57.5. Conversely, if we try use the the Gap between Flash-lugs of 12.4mm = Correction Ratio of 1.81. Then Overall Width = 140mm and Total Height = 107mm. Total Grip Height = approx. 86mm: compared to 95mm and 98mm in my D500 and D850, respectively. And CR of 1.81 estimates Outer-Most Diameter of Z-Mount = 68mm, Throat Diameter = 58mm. 55mm across Bayonet Lugs.
Given the errors or parallax and resolution etc entailed estimating these stats off a glimpsed image of this new camera, this Z-Mount is indeed large.... Note that a smaller (DX equivalent) MF sensor of 44x33 has a diagonal of 55mm.
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From the enlarged frontal image captured in today’s Nikon teaser, I get a correction ratio of 1.7 for Overall Width of Flash Hotshoe Mount (21.1mm in my Df, D500 and D850), and I also calculated a correction ratio of 1.7 for Greatest Width of the Mirrorless Grip (42.5 and 43 in my D500 and D850, respectively). This is measuring across the mount, grip and flash mount of the Nikon image with dial calipers to closest 0.1mm, and outer extent of this ML camera with a steel rule to 1mm.
I estimate the Overall Width = 149mm and Total Height = 114mm of this Nikon mirrorless. Total Grip Height = approx. 91mm: compared to 95mm and 98mm in my D500 and D850, respectively. Outer-Most Width of Z-Mount = 72mm, Throat = 62mm. 59mm across inside of the Bayonet Lugs..... So width close to D500 and width of D750.
Assuming measuring error of the Hotshoe is 1mm wider - then corresponding change= 70.7; 60; 57.5. Conversely, if we try use the the Gap between Flash-lugs of 12.4mm = Correction Ratio of 1.81. Then Overall Width = 140mm and Total Height = 107mm. Total Grip Height = approx. 86mm: compared to 95mm and 98mm in my D500 and D850, respectively. And CR of 1.81 estimates Outer-Most Diameter of Z-Mount = 68mm, Throat Diameter = 58mm. 55mm across Bayonet Lugs.
That's a lot of numbers! :P
Given the errors or parallax and resolution etc entailed estimating these stats off a glimpsed image of this new camera, this Z-Mount is indeed large.... Note that a smaller (DX equivalent) MF sensor of 44x33 has a diagonal of 55mm.
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That may be but taking out the pentaprism, AF motor, mirror mechanism etc. from the body will reduce the weight of the body considerably already. I would expect that if Nikon make a high end mirrorless body, it will have a metal interior chassis (though probably not very thick).
I believe the composite mirror box was used because it maintains calibration better (when metal is deformed, it stays deformed) and this led to the ability to make more accurate AF while maintaining light weight. However, the threads in that material were not very durable, it seems, so it was abandoned in the D850.
Of all the camera bodies I've owned in the 2007- era, the D810 required the least AF fine tuning. Both the D5 and D850 require more (in terms of average adjustment as well as variability between lenses).
A mirrorless body doesn't need fine tuning or AF calibration so they might as well use lightweight metal to minimize the chance of threads coming off upon impact.
We will see. If there in a new ML body is the reinforcing 4-threaded ring inside back of the outer mount, we may consider it very reliable. Hope so. THX! LZ
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We will see. If there in a new ML body is the reinforcing 4-threaded ring inside back of the outer mount, we may consider it very reliable. Hope so. THX! LZ
Yes. For we are only privy to glimpses of a complex instrument. Nikon engineers will not have missed something so elementary, that weakens their lens mount set for their 2nd century
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Yes. For we are only privy to glimpses of a complex instrument. Nikon engineers will not have missed something so elementary, that weakens their lens mount set for their 2nd century
Nice said! Looking forward to put my hands on it. I need it very badly, with new AF adapter for old MF lenses. ( BTW, there are 4-lugs bayonet, so, 1 more spring! The mount must be reinforced!). THX! LZ
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NikonRumors just posted this, supposedly leaked image of the new camera and what looks like a zoom,,,
IMHO it looks like Frankenstein's monster of cameras :o :o :o As we have been fooled before, asian ladies have tiny hands but still it looks huge and like it is compiled out of bits and pieces from various OEM manufactures left over parts.
I'm not even going to state what I think about the look of lens and the lens mount ::) ::) ::)
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Yeah,,,the weird circle around the lens mount looks odd. I don't mind the blocky finder housing.
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Awful looks, the lens looks like an entry zoom kitlens.
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Looks like a big Nikon 1 V2. :o :o :o
IMHO it looks like Frankenstein's monster of cameras :o :o :o As we have been fooled before, asian ladies have tiny hands but still it looks huge and like it is compiled out of bits and pieces from various OEM manufactures left over parts.
The size looks similar to that of D750.
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it's just a bit bigger than the Sony a7II :o :o :o
I am an asian man with small hands ::)
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Looks like a big Nikon 1 V2. :o :o :o
The size looks similar to that of D750.
Two approx sets of estimated dimensions. These are derived from scaling of the image in latest (2nd) Nikon teaser from the flash Hotshoe overall Width (= larger set) versus Hotshoe Inner Width across Lugs (=Smaller set).
There is something of a consensus on forums points to a throat diameter of the Z-Mount of 55-57mm.
Countdown to 23rd August....
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Two approx sets of estimated dimensions. These are derived from scaling of the image in latest (2nd) Nikon teaser from the flash Hotshoe overall Width (= larger set) versus Hotshoe Inner Width across Lugs (=Smaller set).
There is something of a consensus on forums points to a throat diameter of the Z-Mount of 55-57mm.
Countdown to 23rd August....
Thank you for the follow-up. D750 is 140.5mm wide and 113mm tall. And its hotshoe is 21mm wide measured with a caliper at the outside of the lug and 19mm inside. So, my assumption doesn't seem to miss by a mile. :)
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Yes very similar to the Sony a7II and also with the viewfinder sticking out from the back it must be very similar to a DSLR in overall thickness :o
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Yes very similar to the Sony a7II and also with the viewfinder sticking out from the back it must be very similar to a DSLR in overall thickness :o
We are close to the point, in the unveiling of an all-new Nikon, when I will yet again be disappointed that Nikon hasn't brought back interchangeable finders. It'd be technically much easier with a ML than the SLR, but that won't stop them from missing the opportunity.
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On these last pictures, it looks very much like the whole viewfinder could be a removable module?
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On these last pictures, it looks very much like the whole viewfinder could be a removable module?
Shades of Thom Hogan, and his dream of a module based body! ;)
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In the picture the viewfinder appears to be two pieces. But perhaps this is merely a lump tacked on by Nikon to disguise it's true size?
Agree with Erik on the Frankenstein observation.
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I by far prefer the controls on the Lenovo for editing documents to what is available on Macs. I find the Mac too dependent on gestures whereas there are more physical controls on the Thinkpad and the trackpoint is where my forefingers are when typing so I don't need to move my hand to use the mouse. Perhaps I naively assumed any modern computer is fast enough. Anyway the Thinkpad is brilliant for writing.
I whole-heartedly, concur. Furthermore I have been a fairly faithful user of Thinkpad laptop products for nearly twenty years, principally models tailored to business and image-processing, in part due to my early experience with IBM Selectric typewriters and CRT workstations at school and work.
As my own interest in photography evolved during the nascent digital age, I eventually migrated to the Lenovo Thinkpad workstation laptops, to great effect. For several years, the model W500 met my needs; replaced relatively recently by the W530 which, although not the most recent or improved upon offering, I'm still finding a very capable platform, handling 24 megapixel NEF files without issue. (Your mileage may vary -- as we say in the USA.)
I'm sure that whatever form or functionality Nikon's new product reveals, a suitable business-class, professional usage, Lenovo, Apple, HP etc mobile device will meet that challenge.
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I noticed the new mount still will use the space-saving lateral contact points camera-lens. Thus available space inside the camera bayonet is maximised, which should help designing fast lenses.
That, and facilitate the development of OEM and aftermarket, legacy-mount [i.e. Nikon F 1959] lens adapters. With that thought, my imagination whistfully conjures the far off sound of unnumbered Dremel rotary tools, being carried by the wind. CNC router and 3D printers, too? Hmm...!
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If THAT is the new camera, thanks be i bought a Df!
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I was really looking forward to this camera and even sold some gear to finance this thing but I must admit that I was disappointed when I saw the photos. However, as images can be deceiving, I will wait until I hold the product in my hands. It's funny but the more I read about it, the more I appreciate my D750 (and my PEN-F).
BTW: could the ring be the adapter for F-lenses that is being talked about?
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new teaser is up!
my heart is bleeding because they didn't show an F in this video as the progenitor, the previous one didn't have it too :o :o :o
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/09/third-nikon-mirrorless-camera-teaser-released.aspx/ (https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/09/third-nikon-mirrorless-camera-teaser-released.aspx/)
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Link to the new video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TegIMtvkS4g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TegIMtvkS4g)
Honestly, until I'm able to handle/shoot one of these, I'm going to reserve judgement on them.
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new teaser is up!
my heart is bleeding because they didn't show an F in this video as the progenitor, the previous one didn't have it too :o :o :o
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/09/third-nikon-mirrorless-camera-teaser-released.aspx/ (https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/09/third-nikon-mirrorless-camera-teaser-released.aspx/)
x
I think they do at 0:21
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x
I think they do at 0:21
they showed the F2 first :o :o :o
sorry, F fan here ::)
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they showed the F2 first :o :o :o
sorry, F fan here ::)
At 0:21: this is not an F2. The F2 has not the frame counter in the lever knob.
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Link to the new video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TegIMtvkS4g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TegIMtvkS4g)
Honestly, until I'm able to handle/shoot one of these, I'm going to reserve judgement on them.
And that's my honest statement too. Judging the Df from the specs or looks could have misled me. This is all the more true with a more "innovative" camera.
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Yes, I agree with this as a non-specific statement about anything. . . but sometimes, "You just know. . . " and that is how i instinctively "knew" about the Df being the perfect camera for me! I was right. For me. There are, doubtless, people who already "know", they just know this about this yet unseen Nikon.
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If THAT is the new camera, thanks be i bought a Df!
Agreed. Nikon MUST come up with something pretty special with the mirrorless to divert me from my D810 and Df, which satisfy almost all of my needs (I do run a roll of film occasionally through my RM3di).
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The pretty special things are (my best guess):
1) Df is discontinued and there is no Df "line"
2) Mirrorless will come with really good focussing aids
I'm still fond of MF lenses, but know that age will take its toll, so...
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The pretty special things are (my best guess):
1) Df is discontinued and there is no Df "line"
2) Mirrorless will come with really good focussing aids
I'm still fond of MF lenses, but know that age will take its toll, so...
I tend to agree with you, Airy. My guess is many of us are about to become Nikon "dinosaurs". Time (and camera developement) move on...
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BTW: could the ring be the adapter for F-lenses that is being talked about?
My first thought as well, if it isn't it just looks weird.
But form follows function and a good looking useless camera is still a useless camera and I prefer to have a camera which works regardless of how it looks :)
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If Airy is correct, the price of used Dfs will increase. Better start looking for a spare!
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If Airy is correct, the price of used Dfs will increase. Better start looking for a spare!
I am looking forward to the new mirrorless as possibly replacing my Df. In body stabilization, flippy display, magnifying viewfinder to help me manually focus. Plus a compact body and video. As much as I think the Df is great, this seems like an improvement.
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Same here (but long live Df anyway - I'm getting sentimental with this camera)
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Same here (but long live Df anyway - I'm getting sentimental with this camera)
Best camera I’ve ever used.
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Latest rumors suggest a “fast” 24mpx camera and a 45mpx model. Considering the D5 is only 21mpx, it seems to me that 24 should be “enough” if it makes the camera better in low light. Anyone have an opinion one way or another?
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A 24MP sensor who's design is four or five years newer than the one in the D750 is a good choice for any camera. Low light performance would be expected to be excellent, but with enough pixels to satisfy the desire for fine detail in prints.
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Keith, as much as I really like my Df (just love working wit the files) , my D750 was a better 'all-rounder'. I would love to see a Z6/Z7 thread like BR's "humongous" Df thread ;D . The rumoured Noct 58 f.95 does have me intriqued since the 58 f1.4G is pretty much a fixture on the Df. I just hope the sensor in the new cameras are a Nikon design (no matter who makes it :) ) . Too early to get too excited ;) .
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Latest rumors suggest a “fast” 24mpx camera and a 45mpx model. Considering the D5 is only 21mpx, it seems to me that 24 should be “enough” if it makes the camera better in low light. Anyone have an opinion one way or another?
Waiting for more details - https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/13/breaking-nikon-z6-and-z7-full-frame-mirrorless-cameras-and-three-lenses-coming-on-august-23rd-z-noct-nikkor-58mm-f-0-95-lens-to-be-announced-later.aspx/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NikonRumors+%28NikonRumors.com%29 (https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/13/breaking-nikon-z6-and-z7-full-frame-mirrorless-cameras-and-three-lenses-coming-on-august-23rd-z-noct-nikkor-58mm-f-0-95-lens-to-be-announced-later.aspx/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NikonRumors+%28NikonRumors.com%29)
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Judging from the pictures posted @ Nikonrumors(dot)com the rear screen looks to be 4".
I am also keen to see whether or not there is a command wheel between the shutter button and the strap lug.
No AF-ON button is not good though.
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The image of the rear is a photoshopped composite image as far as I can tell,,, not sure about the one you have uploaded of the front with mount,,,
So no comment on details from my part ;)
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Look at the teaser video...
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We shortly get hands-on experience. That trumps any video.
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Their latest teaser video is up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5zyHBXlN3M
Features the Noct Nikkor.
We shortly get hands-on experience. That trumps any video.
7 days to go, I'm getting a little excited now :)
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We shortly get hands-on experience. That trumps any video.
Excellent news, looking forward to your thoughts ;D
Tom
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Their latest teaser video is up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5zyHBXlN3M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5zyHBXlN3M)
Features the Noct Nikkor.
7 days to go, I'm getting a little excited now :)
The video show its indeed a Noct-Nikkor 58mm f/1.2 ;D Very nice and size looks comparable to the old ones 8)
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The video show its indeed a Noct-Nikkor 58mm f/1.2 ;D Very nice and size looks comparable to the old ones 8)
If you mean the first lens in the video, it is in fact an existing Noct Nikkor 58 f/1.2 AI-S with serial number 185045 :)
The last lens in the video on the other hand, the details are too hard to figure out (for me). But someone in the comments section on NikonRumors has made adjustments and the image hints at being a Z 24-70 f/4 lens and takes 72mm filters.
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The image posted on Twitter by Nikon's official account offers clearer image of the lens.
Looks more like a prime lens to me.
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Really like that Nikon is pushing their legendary brand names like Nikkor, Noct-Nikkor, Nikonos, etc towards the new mirrorless platform and do hope the products that will be launched under these names will do them justice.
Also like the strong linkage to the Ai-S lenses in the latest video as this strengthens the hope for the proper support for manual focus lenses, something Sony never did even though they had 5 years to do so.
Lens wise I do hope a fast 35mm is in the pipeline as this is my bread and butter lens, 1.4 would be sufficient but preferable a 1.2 of even 0.95 would be awesome and hard to resist.
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For the F mount, there's Zeiss providing fine manual focus lenses... maybe that's the reason for Nikon neglecting this "niche" so far ? now the new mount may change the equation.
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Just to remind ourselves that Nikon has a long tradition of backwards compatibility. An interoperation exists within all their systems.
Here I put my vintage 25cm f/4 Nikkor-Q (from 1951 !) on Birnas pink Nikon J2. A span of more than 60 years of camera and optical development is manifested atop my Linn subwoofer. This rather unlikely combination works flawlessly thanks to the CPU-modified N-F tube and the FT-1 adapter. If the bleak weather improves ever so slightly, I'll go all in combining her J2 with my massive 360-1200 ED Nikkor.
I expect similar opportunities to exist with the new Nikon mirrorless that I'll encounter in a few days' time.
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I expect similar opportunities to exist with the new Nikon mirrorless that I'll encounter in a few days' time.
Considering the 2.7x crop factor, Nikon 1 can be more exciting than a FX mirrorless when combined with long lenses...
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Maybe I should look into a tweener to mate some of my teletubbies to my V1...
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I shudder to think what that subwoofer could do to camera and lens internals, brings new meaning to the term "sensor shift" lol.
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Hi Sten and hi Tony, good to see you guys here at NG again :)
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Another new video has been posted by Nikon :D
https://youtu.be/nIi_p0wLHkM
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I'm confident the new system will be every bit a performer in capable hands, as it will surely disappoint those less involved in actually producing images or, at the very least, acquiring the necessary skill to that end. Hoped for (or truly needed?) features might be absent first offerings and later adopted in future models as demanded. There are already enough blog-postings eschewing certain "dials", icons or absent buttons, relegating the new camera, or cameras, beneath the dignity of certain erstwhile experts. The rest of us will come to know through demonstration, practical use and trusted opinions if this is "the new brush" needed to better color our world. I still own a Nikon F. And barring any personal hardship, always will. One day I will own a mirror-less, "FX" frame camera. I suspect strongly, it will be a Nikon.
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If the new Z series lenses turn out not to use motor-actuated focus(focus by wire), I will be pleased that the worst possible thing that could have occurred..... did not occur.
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We'll know in a very short time ahead. I'll report whatever focusing method Nikon has opted for in this new system.
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I eagerly await your findings. Tjis is a product that can be very useful for my theater work.
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Press photos of the real thing is now on NikonRumors:
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/21/breaking-the-first-leaked-press-photo-of-the-nikon-z6-and-z7-mirrorless-cameras.aspx/ (https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/21/breaking-the-first-leaked-press-photo-of-the-nikon-z6-and-z7-mirrorless-cameras.aspx/)
Here the Z6 with zoom
Slim focus ring just like the first AF Nikkors back in the day,,, funny they would make that mistake again,,,
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Slim focus ring just like the first AF Nikkors back in the day,,, funny they would make that mistake again,,,
At least it won't rotate. :D Also, this is a kit zoom whose user won't really be in need of focus manually. The AF points should be smaller and denser, and the AF area should be much wider.
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By the way, I'm also intrigued by Canon's total silence for the full-size mirrorless. ;)
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Link to original photos of cameras, lenses and adapter (camera side only)
https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/08/z6z7.html (https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/08/z6z7.html)
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Agree that the thin focus ring on the 24-70/4 is not desirable. I like the tilting LCD on both bodies, though.
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Any word on what the "s" on the lenses indicate?
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Any word on what the "s" on the lenses indicate?
The same Nikon nomenclature should apply: supersonic wave motor.
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Link to original photos of cameras, lenses and adapter (camera side only)
https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/08/z6z7.html (https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/08/z6z7.html)
Thank you, Jack, for the link!
My wild guess is that both 50/1.8 and 35/1.8 utilize the same optics as those of AF-S siblings. :)
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And with the inclusion of the all important "AF-on" button, many current internet detractors (I'm being generous), will have to seek new reasons for concern -- barring any practical experience with the new system. For the rest of us, provided the camera and lens[es] function as designed, this might be that "digital FE" so long hoped for. No? Anyway, I have an old Manfrotto and legacy glass that would just love to take a Z6 on a shake-down cruise. Autumn is so close, we can taste it in the Hudson Valley.
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The 24-70/4 looks nice enough, but larger than expected (72mm filter) considering it is a stop slower than the AFS 24-70/2.8 and is a mirrorless design.
As for the 50/1.8 and 35/1.8, the front of the lenses are not shown, but we know the filter size of the 24-70/4, so by comparison, I guess the new lenses have 58mm filter. This is the same size as the F-mount lenses. I don't think they use the same optics as the F-mount siblings. it should be possible to develop a more highly optimised lens since the rear element no longer needs to clear a reflex mirror. I think using the same optics as the F-mount version would be a disappointment - you aren't really any better off than using the F-mount lens with adaptor. The two lenses shown are nearly identical in length, while the F-mount AFS 35/1.8 is significantly longer than the AFS 50/1.8, which suggests they are new designs.
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I believe Nikon's aim is to gradually ween seasoned photographers off the venerable F-mount which, for all practical purposes, held back the adoption of the optical formulas that existed on drafting tables and work benches but couldn't surmount the ancient flange-distance. New photographers or system adopters will hardly know the difference or care much, if at all. I appreciate Nikon's long standing dedication (or am I being naive?) to backward compatibility. But to survive, the wider throat diameter of the new Z-system mount was, is, a necessary development. I'm just overjoyed I may continue to use legacy Nikkors as surely as hipsters and artistes will discover all manner of classic-crap with which to indulge their muse. (Holga lens [sic] on a Z6, anyone? Come to Brooklyn, next year... )
One last thought: Will the image circle of the new lenses cover medium format, therefore allowing for a one-mount, one-lens, universal system for Nikon FX and medium format digital camera development? Just curious. The mount diameter certainly appears wide enough -- but if I knew anything I wouldn't be asking.
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As for the 50/1.8 and 35/1.8, the front of the lenses are not shown, but we know the filter size of the 24-70/4, so by comparison, I guess the new lenses have 58mm filter. This is the same size as the F-mount lenses. I don't think they use the same optics as the F-mount siblings. it should be possible to develop a more highly optimised lens since the rear element no longer needs to clear a reflex mirror. I think using the same optics as the F-mount version would be a disappointment - you aren't really any better off than using the F-mount lens with adaptor. The two lenses shown are nearly identical in length, while the F-mount AFS 35/1.8 is significantly longer than the AFS 50/1.8, which suggests they are new designs.
The optics of 35/1.8 could be newly designed, but 50/1.8 could be the same as the AF- S sibling.
The Sigma Art series lenses for Sony FE mount are longer than those for DSLRs sharing the same optics, due to its shorter flange back. So the Z mount version may well be longer, even if it shares the same optics.
There is no info on the in-body image stabilization (IBIS). If the new Z bodies employ the IBIS, these lenses would be designed from the ground-up.
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Link to original photos of cameras, lenses and adapter (camera side only)
https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/08/z6z7.html (https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/08/z6z7.html)
Thanks !
Here are the 50mm , 35mm 1.8 S and FTZ adapterMuch wider focus ring here,,,
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I like the looks and the Z6 seems to have all the necessary buttons.
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Hopefully the higher MP body doesn't have IBIS. I'll be happy to be Nikon's little test mice if so.
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The same Nikon nomenclature should apply: supersonic wave motor.
Thanks. I'm just used to seeing it represented as "SWM". Thought maybe then went with a different motor tech or something.
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Hopefully the higher MP body doesn't have IBIS. I'll be happy to be Nikon's little test mice if so.
just curious why the inclusion of IBIS would be a show stopper for you?
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....
There is no info on the in-body image stabilization (IBIS). If the new Z bodies employ the IBIS, these lenses would be designed from the ground-up.
Considering Nikon's past history on offering VR kit lenses with most cameras of this model level ... I'd say the probability would be higher that it has IBIS rather than not.
If no IBIS, I'd have expected a 24-70/4 VR lens.
If no IBIS and no stabilised lenses on initial offering, this then becomes a 'marketing liability' for them.
Considering the market segment the new cameras are aimed at, where every competitor has stabilization across most if not the entire range .. won't be a good intro.
So, hopefully it'll have IBIS.
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I would imagine it has in body stabilization of some kind, for the same logic (24-70/4 does not appear to be stabilized in the lens).
However, additional moving parts are a source of possible failures / repair bills later on and in-camera stabilization is linked to overheating in extended video recording in hot conditions and increase in long exposure noise over prolonged periods of use. Furthermore I would imagine there to be some increase in power consumption when the sensor has to be actively held in place at all times.
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Nothing from Lloyd Chambers or Thom Hogan over the past week or so on their websites. I'll bet they're evaluating advance copies and will be giving preliminary reports shortly.
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Birna is quiet too...
Please compare to Df if possible. That is what I’d look to supersede with a Z6.
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No as ugly as I thought it would be! But still ugly compared with the Df. Nikon's best kept secret is the base plate. What will we see there? A Df style fall off type battery door? One or two card slots? Tomorrow all will be revealed.
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Considering Nikon's past history on offering VR kit lenses with most cameras of this model level ... I'd say the probability would be higher that it has IBIS rather than not.
If no IBIS, I'd have expected a 24-70/4 VR lens.
If no IBIS and no stabilised lenses on initial offering, this then becomes a 'marketing liability' for them.
Considering the market segment the new cameras are aimed at, where every competitor has stabilization across most if not the entire range .. won't be a good intro.
So, hopefully it'll have IBIS.
That is unless instead of the "S" being silent wave motor, it is "S" for "stabilized". Maybe they are changing the nomenclature from VR.
I'm hoping it is 5-axis IBIS, but if they stabilize all the lenses that is a way to go as well. I'd love to be able to use some of my older AI-s lenses with IBIS like I do on my m43 cameras.
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From NR:
Nikon Z7
45.7 MP back-illuminated CMOS
EXPEED 6
The hybrid AF system covers about 90% of the imaging area
Continuous: 9 frames / sec
3.2" touchscreen
Recording medium: XQD card
Size: 134 x 100.5 x 67.5 mm
Weight: 675 g
British pricing: body:£3399, lens kit:£3499, 24-70mm kit:£3999, 24-70mm + FTZ:£4099
Read more: https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/22/nikon-z7-mirrorless-cameras-specifications-and-uk-pricing.aspx/#ixzz5OvAi5Y6O
The UK price for the D850 is around £3500..
Also interesting to see that the Z6 has 273 AF points vs. 493 for the Z7.
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Also interesting to see that the Z6 has 273 AF points vs. 493 for the Z7.
Both are .09 AF points per Mpix. I anticipate that the Z7 has same spread, just more density.
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The “A - M” text on the lens switches, which reads “M/A - M” on AF-S lenses, suggests that combined manual and autofocus is not possible. That would really be a bummer.
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Birna wil report back tomorrow 0700 UTC+2. I'll respect the NDA.
Accordingly I shall not answer direct questions before the deadline.
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The “A - M” text on the lens switches, which reads “M/A - M” on AF-S lenses, suggests that combined manual and autofocus is not possible. That would really be a bummer.
I always though the M/A - M text was overly complicated. A - M are enough, no matter how it functions.
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Assuming you'll get both the Z6 and Z7 how do you differentiate the bodies in actual daily use (without looking up the Z6 or Z7 on the body front)?
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Looking forward to Birna’s review. Must wait to next week to fondle the new thing. ;)
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Assuming you'll get both the Z6 and Z7 how do you differentiate the bodies in actual daily use (without looking up the Z6 or Z7 on the body front)?
A piece of masking tape and a marking pen are your friends. :D
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Adobe just updated Lightroom/Photoshop CC, but the updated ACR doesn't support Z7 or Z6 (or Panasonic LX100II) yet...
https://www.dpreview.com/news/8530681603/adobe-updates-lightroom-cc-lightroom-classic-cc-and-camera-raw
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Also interesting to see that the Z6 has 273 AF points vs. 493 for the Z7.
Similar to the Sony a7III vs the a7RIII, besides the MP and AF sensor differences I hope the body will be the same for both models as with the early Sony the basic model was mainly made of plastics while the high MP model was made of magnesium.
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Assuming you'll get both the Z6 and Z7 how do you differentiate the bodies in actual daily use (without looking up the Z6 or Z7 on the body front)?
Colored straps, tape, stickers or glue on the body, grip or display, different viewfinder configuration...
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I always though the M/A - M text was overly complicated. A - M are enough, no matter how it functions.
The old screwdriver lenses with a focusmode ring (e.g. 85/1.4 AFD) had the “A - M” text too, and couldn’t combine AF with manual focus...
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The old screwdriver lenses with a focusmode ring (e.g. 85/1.4 AFD) had the “A - M” text too, and couldn’t combine AF with manual focus...
Which is why they had to add the M/A to differentiate. But screwdrive is seldom seen these days.
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Similar to the Sony a7III vs the a7RIII, besides the MP and AF sensor differences I hope the body will be the same for both models as with the early Sony the basic model was mainly made of plastics while the high MP model was made of magnesium.
... and here I'm already thinking that 51 AF for the D800 are way to many
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... and here I'm already thinking that 51 AF for the D800 are way to many
+ 1
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So far I see no reason for buying one of those
including the three lenses.
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So far I see no reason for buying one of those
including the three lenses.
Why? It would be interesting to better understand your reasoning.
Based on the inofficial specs the Z6 alone appears smaller and 100g lighter than the Df with an amazing (potential) performance, equal or better than the D5/D500/D850 generation...
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Why? It would be interesting to better understand your reasoning.
Based on the inofficial specs the Z6 alone appears smaller and 100g lighter than the Df with an amazing (potential) performance, equal or better than the D5/D500/D850 generation...
I concur. Holding off all judgement until I see some reviews from reliable sources and using one myself. My hope is that it is capable of being just as good if not better than the D750. If it can do that and I can use all my current f-mount lenses....it is a win-win all around.
I want the benefits of live histograms and WYSIWYG exposures in the viewfinder
I want to not have to struggle with AF fine tuning on lenses.
I want the ability to shoot in silent mode or near silent
I want to be able to take advantage of the awesome new lens mount and get smaller FX lenses
I want the ability to use my old AIS lenses with IBIS and focus peaking on a better sensor than my current m43 cameras. a
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i just want a S-mount adapter :o :o :o
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Well great nows for many of us with D500 and D850 etc - ENEL15b Moreove, the FTZ adapter is bundled with camera body or kit options (at this leaked price one would hope so!)
.....Soon we will know more ;D ;D
https://events.imaging.nikon.com/live/en/ (https://events.imaging.nikon.com/live/en/)
Read more: https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/22/more-nikon-z7-leaks-new-specs-pictures.aspx/#ixzz5Oy4XZr1k
More Nikon Z7 mirrorless camera leaks:
45.7 MP
493 AF Point
9 fps
EVF: 3.6M QVGA
2.1M touchscreen
5-axis stabilization
Hybrid PDAF
FullHD 120p, 4K UHD 30p Video, 8K time lapse, N-LOG profile (4: 2: 2 10-bit HDMI output), focus peaking, Zebra
EN-EL15b battery
Wi-Fi, Bluetooth
Weather sealed body
Price: Nikon Z7 + FTZ around 3600EUR, Z7 + FTZ + 24-70 around 4200EUR
NEW: the FTZ adapter is working with IBIS.
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TEN MINUTES TO GO!!!
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And counting !!
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ten minutes, plus one year for the financing ;)
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ten minutes, plus one year for the financing ;)
;D ;D ;D
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FIVE MINUTES TO GO!!!
BEWARE OF CONGESTION!!! LOL
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Introduction has begun...
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I Zee ;D
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Wow, flange distance is only 16mm, 2mm less than the a7 series which means lenses of pretty all other mounts can be used :)
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Wow, flange distance is only 16mm, 2mm less than the a7 series which means lenses of pretty all other mounts can be used :)
Oh, yes!
By the way, my predictions turned out to be all wrong! ;D :o ;D :o
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They just mentioned and showed the Noct 58mm f/0.95 (currently being developed), as well as a lens roadmap including numerous 1.8 lenses.
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24-70 will be out in late September, 130,000 JPY, 50/1.8 late October, 85,000 JPY, 35/1.8...
Z7 will be out in late September, 440,000 JPY, Z6, in late November, 270,000 JPY.
500/5.6 PF (F mount), 505,000 JPY
All are estimated prices without VAT. The prices and release dates not mentioned above have fallen out of my memory. :o :o :o
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Stepper motors for focusing. Video was mentioned multiple times.
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Okay folks, now that any further speculation "here" would make no sense, it seems to be better to lock this thread to move to the one Bjørn started?
Dear administrators, please!
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answered
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So 55mm wide which our allometry scaling estimates, 3 weeks back, got quite close to :-) Using glimpsed images off the teasers.
This just concluded Live Launch was impressive in so many aspects. Well worth getting up early (2+GMT in my case)!
The technical presentations laid out several poignant statements. Admittedly marketing speak ;)
No 1 in FF cameras is core goal of Nikon... Pledge to integrate Z and F mount....
The new slogan "Capture Tomorrow" bodes well!
And NOT least - the FTZ adapter supports 380+ F Nikkors
Impressive dare one say.
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Okay folks, now that any further speculation "here" would make no sense, it seems to be better to lock this thread to move to the one Bjørn started?
Dear administrators, please!
Noted but the Dedicated Thread is still not allowing Reply
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24-70 will be out in late September, 130,000 JPY, 50/1.8 late October, 85,000 JPY, 35/1.8...
Z7 will be out in late September, 440,000 JPY, Z6, in late November, 270,000 JPY.
500/5.6 PF (F mount), 505,000 JPY
All are estimated prices without VAT. The prices and release dates not mentioned above have fallen out of my memory. :o :o :o
Yen Prices sounded close to these
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/22/nikon-z-and-nikkor-500mm-f-5-6-lens-japanese-pricing.aspx/
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So 55mm wide which our allometry scaling estimates, 3 weeks back, got quite close to :-) Using glimpsed images off the teasers.
This just concluded Live Launch was impressive in so many aspects. Well worth getting up early (2+GMT in my case)!
The technical presentations laid out several poignant statements. Admittedly marketing speak ;)
No 1 in FF cameras is core goal of Nikon... Pledge to integrate Z and F mount....
The new slogan "Capture Tomorrow" bodes well!
And NOT least - the FTZ adapter supports 380+ F Nikkors
Impressive dare one say.
Amendment - with no screwdriver :-\ FTZ does not support AFD focussing. Only bad news of today's. Hopefully, Nikon will fix this gap
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nikon rumors crashed :o :o :o
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NG's dedicated Z thread has been opened. Better to continue there as we now know the details ....
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With almost full frame of AF sensors, what is great, without presence of closest object AF function, (or better analogy, of course), there will be problem with sport, or any other unpredictable multiple chaotic objects moving. I will be really glad to be wrong. BTW, the outer mount of the adapter has 5 screws, thanks God! LZ
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ok. drive by wire? not with AFS I guess?
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Each Z lens has a step motor that does the actual focusing. Not sure about the Z Noct. Nobody could give a clear answer apart from the Noct being "manual focus".
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Currently I am wondering about the image circle of the Z-line lenses, and whether there are reserves for a future larger sensor format
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With almost full frame of AF sensors, what is great, without presence of closest object AF function, (or better analogy, of course), there will be problem with sport, or any other unpredictable multiple chaotic objects moving. I will be really glad to be wrong. BTW, the outer mount of the adapter has 5 screws, thanks God! LZ
There is some gap to be expected to the AF systems we know from D5 or D500
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Currently I am wondering about the image circle of the Z-line lenses, and whether there are reserves for a future larger sensor format
Re-read page one of this thread ;)
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There is some gap to be expected to the AF systems we know from D5 or D500
It will for sure be different - Completely different technology both lens and camera!
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Erik, I am very interested in how the Nikon Hybrid AF works (and is it different from Sony). Sometimes the Sony Hybrid gives me fits. It is very fast to get PDAF very fast but then wants to micro adjust in CDAF. There are times when that causes me to miss the moment and other times focus slightly off. I do better using a Leica M 90 2.8 (or appropriate FL) with the Techart pro since it only uses the PDAF (as long as distance is very close to same as last distance. I would often prefer to get a slightly less sharp image , but sharp enough, rather than miss the shot.
Tom
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maybe we should just close this and continue on the other one? :o :o :o
just keep this for reference's sake. ::)