Author Topic: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold  (Read 11212 times)

Les Olson

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2018, 15:17:55 »
No, it is not possible to carry "half a dozen of the biggest lenses made," on a long, challenging hike. Period.

Further, a person's budget might render purchasing "half a dozen of the biggest lenses made" impossible as a target as well.

It's quite obvious why considering flexibility (getting the most from one lens) is so important: cost and weight, not to mention having the most options with one lens, so you don't have to carry/switch lenses if a moment presents itself.

How do you think people took nature photographs 100 years ago?  They carried view cameras in wilderness.  Ansel Adams made most of his best known photographs with very heavy gear carried on his back: eg, Monolith, the Face of Half Dome was made with a "61/2 x 81/2 Korona view camera, with two lenses, two filters, a rather heavy wooden tripod, and twelve [...] glass plates" which Adams carried over very rough ground including a 1200m altitude gain (Examples: The Making of 40 Photographs, p3).  The camera weighs about 6kg, and his glass plates weighed about 1kg each, so his total camera gear must have weighed 25kg.  Edward Weston, on the other hand, said "Anything more than 500 yards from the car just isn’t photogenic".  Which is fine - but it is not a fact, it is a choice. 

It is not that everyone - Adams included - would not rather carry less and spend less but that where an individual draws the line between "possible" and "impossible" is a unique, personal choice.  The second highest step is the same distance from the top of every ladder, but not the same distance from the bottom. 


chambeshi

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2018, 21:46:47 »
How do you think people took nature photographs 100 years ago?  They carried view cameras in wilderness.  Ansel Adams made most of his best known photographs with very heavy gear carried on his back: eg, Monolith, the Face of Half Dome was made with a "61/2 x 81/2 Korona view camera, with two lenses, two filters, a rather heavy wooden tripod, and twelve [...] glass plates" which Adams carried over very rough ground including a 1200m altitude gain (Examples: The Making of 40 Photographs, p3).  The camera weighs about 6kg, and his glass plates weighed about 1kg each, so his total camera gear must have weighed 25kg.  Edward Weston, on the other hand, said "Anything more than 500 yards from the car just isn’t photogenic".  Which is fine - but it is not a fact, it is a choice. 

It is not that everyone - Adams included - would not rather carry less and spend less but that where an individual draws the line between "possible" and "impossible" is a unique, personal choice.  The second highest step is the same distance from the top of every ladder, but not the same distance from the bottom.


There are distinct genres of Nature photography. Ansell Adams was photographing landscapes that have that useful tendency to hang around, albeit the uniqueness of the scene is all about the weather and time of day etc - and not least the person making the image. the focus of this thread is on the most cost-effective and ergonomic solution to secure the best possible images of organisms - small bodied and mobile - exemplified in smaller birds especially. These are elusive subjects for which a camera & telephoto on a tripod too often slows one up capturing the moment.... Handholding works best as does the ability to be free to move relatively quickly.

It's true that a great many excellent wildlife photos are captured from set hides and mobile hides (vehicles) where lugging in 2+ DSLRs and 2 or more big lenses AND more gear is so feasible over those well trodden steps between hide and home.

For the past 3+ decades l have often had to carry heavy packs all day in tropical climates  and over rough country. On occasion over 30kg of gear for camping out - mainly food and litres of water. It is no fun. Grueling after a while. On a couple of these trips my companions gave in in exhaustion, and they were regular runners....the heat and the loads and the gradients take no prisoners. A conspicuous cohort in the generations I was privileged to grow up in Zimbabwe (then Rhodesia) through the 1960s into the 1980s took such conditions as the means to the ends... But quite a few refused to go to such lengths of backpacking so much gear to enjoy the gains "Out There". (In fact, the strategy of very heavy backpacks was tried and proven in the counter insurgency bushwar.)

The lesson in the preceding paragraph is only a minority of us can carry such heavy loads and even fewer can put the core equipement to speedy use when the event of the moment happens..... Moreover as one ages this ability to perform at the margins declines...

My Nikon gear was too often part of the payload. I have learnt by first hand experience that keeping camera + lenses under 10kg pays dividends in mobility and the ability to capture the proverbial moment.  Under 5kg is even more optimal for mobility etc = DSLR + 3kg telephoto with TCs is barely optimal IMHE.

It is hard to imagine an extreme photographer fitter and better capable to capture the moment in mountains than Galen Rowell, where it was not unknown for him to run up slope etc to get the shots. Quite a few of these shots were taken at altitudes several kms above sea level eg his Tibetan Rainbow capture. This context of light gear for outdoor photography underwrites Rowell's adage - "when you can't take it with you" - link above. (Even though he had a full house of Nikon bodies and glass - he got to know firsthand what optimal system worked for his more extreme conditions.... In my book his little bundle of gear sets the tight bracket on optimal photo gear for Nature photography and his was mainly landscapes. Too often we need the exotic telephotos for wildlife! As the options stand today, this is 3-4kg.

There's also the irritating facts of fiscal stricture as to how many telephotos can be purchased, or even loaned  ::) Costs and Logistics plus ergonomics squeeze the choice too often to a single telephoto. This choice hangs over many travelers, pertinently bird photographers who fly to the tropics and poles and elsewhere.

The 6th post in the series on my blog frames the more technical aspects of my argument in the market forces I see are driving the changes to more lighter ergonomic telephotos - in the tradition of the 300 f4 PF Nikkor. And Teleconverters are all the more central to this solution -as reiterated by John Koerner above....Especially on hikes where 2 telephotos is 1 too many! Yes, it's the trade off for ergonomics to get the images but we still strive for the best IQ that's possible.

And all the better if the telephoto one invests in the future will be (hopefully) enabled with integral bespoke TC(s). What a Game changer! sales of such optics will accrue provided not overpriced. As with what's been achieved in space science, IT and genomics etc, the more audacious suggestions and demands for innovative solutions are first treated with voluble pessimism. But history tells us technology so often triumphs, where after the doom-and-gloom brigade pretends they were believers in any case..... Just a decade back, who would have believed if a forum post had postulated the mass production of the Dinky phase-fresnel telephoto prime (that overcame the glitches of the Canon)?  ;D  ;D

While my long term interests in choosing the optimum camera gear are to meet my own peculiar needs, I've tried to understand what factors and demands are changing the overall market, not least the potential that is possible today thanks to new technologies in materials and innovations. One has to consider where markets are improving, and for telephotos the needs of nature photographers on the move are swelling  in numbers.

This is excellent for several reasons, and more will benefit where technology delivers innovative solutions. IMHO, the telephoto design space has only begun to acknowledge the keystone role of the Humble Teleconverter :-)

Les Olson

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2018, 11:34:28 »


My Nikon gear was too often part of the payload. I have learnt by first hand experience that keeping camera + lenses under 10kg pays dividends in mobility and the ability to capture the proverbial moment.  Under 5kg is even more optimal for mobility etc = DSLR + 3kg telephoto with TCs is barely optimal IMHE.

It is hard to imagine an extreme photographer fitter and better capable to capture the moment in mountains than Galen Rowell, where it was not unknown for him to run up slope etc to get the shots. Quite a few of these shots were taken at altitudes several kms above sea level eg his Tibetan Rainbow capture. This context of light gear for outdoor photography underwrites Rowell's adage - "when you can't take it with you" - link above. (Even though he had a full house of Nikon bodies and glass - he got to know firsthand what optimal system worked for his more extreme conditions.... In my book his little bundle of gear sets the tight bracket on optimal photo gear for Nature photography and his was mainly landscapes. Too often we need the exotic telephotos for wildlife! As the options stand today, this is 3-4kg.

Yes, it's the trade off for ergonomics to get the images but we still strive for the best IQ that's possible.


Galen Rowell's idea of "light", however, was very different to yours: for running he carried an N75, a 20/4 or 24/2.8 and a small telephoto zoom - either the 75-150/3.5 or, later, the 80-200/4.5-5.6, plus a small flash - around 1kg total.  In Mountain Light he says that when climbing in the Karakoram he carried an F3 with a 24, 35, and 75-150 - around 2.5kg total.  In both cases, much less than your 5kg limit. 

For every person willing to carry 3kg but not 5kg who can use the 300/4 plus the TCs, there is someone who is willing to carry 5 - 10kg who can use the 600/4, and there is someone only willing to carry 1kg who has to settle for the 70-300 AF-P.  For every person who can "only" afford $3000 for a 300mm f/4PF plus a TC14 and a TC20 there is someone who can afford $12000 for a 600mm f/4 and doesn't need TCs and someone else who can only afford $400 for the AF-P DX 70-300 and can't use TCs.
 
That is, when you and John say that TCs are useful, you are saying they suit a very particular set of preferences and capacities: willingness to spend enough money and carry enough weight to make TCs useful but not so much as to make them superfluous. 

If exotic telephotos are necessary for wildlife, how come Mountain Light has a photograph of a lynx (!) and one of a mountain goat, both taken at 200mm and one of bighorn sheep taken at 300mm?  Because Rowell spent a lot of time in the wilderness, and time is a very effective substitute for focal length.  As is patience: the most cost-effective and ergonomic approach to wildlife photography is not TCs, it is sitting still.  If you sit still long enough, 300mm on a D500 is ample and carrying a TC saves neither weight nor money.  If you sit still even longer, you can use 300mm on the D850.  That is why integrated TCs on telephotos are a terrible idea: if you don't need it you still have to carry it around. 


JKoerner007

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2018, 15:17:48 »
For every person willing to carry 3kg but not 5kg who can use the 300/4 plus the TCs, there is someone who is willing to carry 5 - 10kg who can use the 600/4, and there is someone only willing to carry 1kg who has to settle for the 70-300 AF-P.  For every person who can "only" afford $3000 for a 300mm f/4PF plus a TC14 and a TC20 there is someone who can afford $12000 for a 600mm f/4 and doesn't need TCs and someone else who can only afford $400 for the AF-P DX 70-300 and can't use TCs.

Yeah, but Les, what you're now describing is a far cry from your original, ridiculous posit of carrying "half a dozen of the biggest lenses made" ... after "a good breakfast" ::)

Again no one can, or ever will be able to do this.

"Half a dozen" of the heaviest lenses made today would basically be Nikon's entire super-tele line: 800mm, 600mm, 500mm, 400mm, 300mm, 200mm.

No one is going to go hiking carrying a load like this, so please just retract your original ridiculous statement.

You've now tried to reduce everything to a single super-tele plus a zoom.

That's more realistic ;)

I hike many places with with 2 bodies (D810/D500), a 300mm VR II (+2x), tripod, a CV 125, Zeiss 15mm, and 4 AI-S lenses.

Either a 600mm, or a 400mm, are going to replace the 300mm ... or maybe the 300mm f/4E PF + TCs will suffice.

If I like the image quality of the 300 PF, I may leave it at that, to lighten my load. (In fact, many users remark this lens gets them better, closer shots "than 10-lb lenses"--because of its small size and lack of need for a tripod. They're able to get closer to their subject, because they're no longer toting a 'rocket launcher' on their backs anymore, but instead enjoy a smaller, lighter lens unobtrusively held against their chest as they navigate through the woods.)

With an apparent (albeit not-yet-acknowledged) agreement that only one super-tele is realistic for hiking (plus a few smaller, support lenses), the question defaults back to Chambeshi's (as well as my own) topic: which one, plus TCs, offers the most flexibility?

Les Olson

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2018, 15:41:46 »
I certainly hope you don't expect me to retract the advice to have a good breakfast.   "Half a dozen of the biggest" might have been the teensiest exaggeration, but you are carrying seven lenses and two cameras, and not the smallest. What does that weigh? 10kg?

The single telephoto plus TCs was your suggestion, not mine.  I was simply pointing out that it is no more natural or less a niche suggestion than any other - no different to saying that an alcoholic is someone who drinks more than his doctor.

JKoerner007

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2018, 16:07:58 »
I certainly hope you don't expect me to retract the advice to have a good breakfast.

Cute ;D



"Half a dozen of the biggest" might have been the teensiest exaggeration, but you are carrying seven lenses and two cameras, and not the smallest. What does that weigh? 10kg?

Teensiest exaggeration?

I don't think you've hiked with 'a' super telephoto lens, let alone 'many,' based on this statement.

It's no fun to do. You also can't keep "many" super-telephoto lenses in a backpack; even ONE won't fit into most.

The weight of my gear? I'd say 10 kg is about right, give or take.



The single telephoto plus TCs was your suggestion, not mine.  I was simply pointing out that it is no more natural or less a niche suggestion than any other - no different to saying that an alcoholic is someone who drinks more than his doctor.

Not sure about your new example, except it may explain some of your 'points' ;)

A single telephoto + TC (and a few smaller, supporting lenses) is all anyone is going to carry. Your other example of Adams' large format camera usage is itself childs-play compared to trying to tote 'half a dozen' super-telephoto lenses.

My suggestion is you actually try to hike for 6 hours (not stand in a blind with your lens on a tripod, but hike) with one super-telephoto + tripod slung over your back ... and come back to report on the idea of carrying two on a hike the next day :o ;)

The desire to "get the most flexibility from one" will become much, much more dear to you then ;D

Les Olson

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2018, 17:36:54 »
The six Nikkors from 200/2 up to 800/5.6 add up to a tick over 18kg.  I have often carried 20kg long distances over rough country, and, no, a super-tele was not part of the load, but I have never heard that 18kg is heavier when it is lenses than when it is tents and food and water.  Nepali porters routinely carry loads equal to 100% of their body weight (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/308/5729/1755.full) - and that's without a good breakfast - so six 800s is easily within their physical limits, if not yours and mine.  As for not fitting in "most" backpacks, a 600/4 is 43cm long, and an 800/5.6 is 46cm long: a standard - 70-75L - backpack is 75 to 90cm long, so both fit perfectly well. 

You are quite willing to carry 10kg? Well, the 800/5.6 + 600/4 + 300/4PF add up to 9.2kg.  You could carry all three, even without testing your physical limits. Of course, you could not also carry "two bodies (D810/D500), tripod, a CV 125, Zeiss 15mm, and 4 AI-S lenses". 

Which is fine - the problem is not making choices, it is making choices appear "obvious" by assuming the outcomes of other, unstated choices - in your case the choice to carry two bodies and all those other lenses but to carry only 10kg.   

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2018, 18:48:33 »
I am told that for trekkers, 20-25kg weight in the backpack is normal. However, packing six fast superteles safely would require some special bag and it is probably not practical (the bag would have to compartmentalize the lenses and that would be difficult to accomplish). I personally am in the 10kg camera gear is ok to carry, have carried 15kg but it was for me a bit much. But I am no athlete.

I know some carry 300/2.8 and 500/4 at the same time. I personally think one always makes choices as to what is important. I might choose to carry a 24-70 and 200/2 (or 35, 85 and 200) and take those shots I can with that gear, instead of insisting on having every focal length available. Sometimes it’s good to work with a single lens or focal length for a while.

JKoerner007

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2018, 21:20:06 »
Les and Ilkka, there is a difference between trekking and hiking ... between carrying gear (like a pack animal), and hiking with your gear at-the-ready.

A photographer carrying all his gear to "a spot" (blind, getaway home, excursion point, etc.), with all his gear wrapped-up, is entirely different from hiking and wanting all your gear immediately available as you hike.

Further, the "possible" weight a person can carry also has to do with the objects' size, fragility, weight displacement, etc.

Carrying a 20 pound soft tent feels good on the back, the object is not going to break, and it also has even weight displacement. That's easy. However, carrying two $12,000 hard-as-rocks, extremely fragile, 10-lb lenses is going to feel like shit, and require specialized equipment. There is no such equipment for hiking, let alone for six lenses.

Further, hiking with a bunch of gear "contained" is much different from hiking with gear that is "immediately available." You cannot hike with two super-teles immediately-available.

The closest approximation you could make would be to have one super-tele over your shoulder, on a tripod, and the other carried in a specially-configured backpack, such as the below:



But two things are true: (1) such a configuration is not "immediate availability," and 2) you only have one back and one additional telephoto that could be carried as such.

There is no way in the world to backpack with six separate super telephoto lenses, at all, let alone with "immediate availability, sso let us not digress any further into fantasyland, as no photographer would do such a thing. It's unrealistic.

Two super telephotos on a hike? Okay maybe.

But six super telephotos on a hike? GTHOOH ::)

Chip Chipowski

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2018, 22:21:33 »
This is a fun debate.  I lean toward Les' position because "never say never" and just about anything is possible.  Also I agree with the advice to start the day with a good breakfast

JKoerner007

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2018, 22:47:58 »
This is a fun debate.

 :D



I lean toward Les' position because "never say never" and just about anything is possible.

As the saying goes, "Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself."  ;) ;D



Also I agree with the advice to start the day with a good breakfast

Hey, at least there is something upon which we all can agree ;D

Chip Chipowski

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2018, 22:54:04 »
Quote
As the saying goes, "Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself."  ;) ;D

There is also the saying that goes something like this: "If I can't do it, nobody can do it."

JKoerner007

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2018, 22:58:58 »
There is also the saying that goes something like this: "If I can't do it, nobody can do it."

There is also the reality that some things really are impossible.

I defy you to show me one, single scenario/configuration, where six "of the heaviest super-telephoto lenses made" can be carried by a single person "in a backpack," on a hike ... at all ... let alone be immediately available at the ready.

As the final saying goes, "Put up, or shut up." ;D

It's not up to 'me' to be everywhere in the universe, at once, to "prove unicorns don't exist" ... the reality is, if you claim unicorns exist, then it is up to you to produce one.

Therefore, by your own example, or by linking me to one, show me 'how' this is possible ... or admit it is not ;)

Wally

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2018, 00:39:45 »
It seems this interesting discussion is now more about who is right or who is wrong than about a realistic or unrealistic scenario  :'(

What about a more common, regular setup like the 2.8 holy trinity plus 2 bodies (e.g. 850/810 & 500) weighing in at 5.5 kilograms.
IMHO that's a good baseline a lot of people carry around daily.
Another Austrian Terminator in California

JKoerner007

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Re: The TC Factor and Telephotos-the f3.3 Inflection Threshold
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2018, 01:13:07 »
It seems this interesting discussion is now more about who is right or who is wrong than about a realistic or unrealistic scenario  :'(

Agreed, Wally, will not debate this nonsense anymore ... the perpetrators either need to produce the Unicorn or admit it doesn't exist :)



What about a more common, regular setup like the 2.8 holy trinity plus 2 bodies (e.g. 850/810 & 500) weighing in at 5.5 kilograms.
IMHO that's a good baseline a lot of people carry around daily.

Agreed again.

I am right now envisioning myself carrying a D500 + 600mm E FL ED + 1.4 TC (1260mm equiv. framing), on a tripod over my shoulder ...
While carrying a D500 + 300 f/4 PF + 1.4x TC on the chest slot of a Cotton Carrier (630mm framing) ...
Finally with a D810 + CV 125 macro holstered on my hip with the same Cotton Carrier.

All of these instruments/lenses are immediately deployable ...

Meanwhile, my Zeiss 15mm + my Nikkor 20mm, 28mm, and 50mm AI-S lenses are carried on a shoulder pouch, plus a 2x TC/Kenko extender also available, with said container resting on my front/left hip.
(No sense of urgency with landscape-type lenses.)

The translation means ALL of these cameras/lenses/accessories are in the front of me, immediately-accessible (as opposed to being 'behind me, in a backpack' that I have to stop what I am doing and take off), with a 15mm - 1200mm range in possibilities "at the-ready" 8)