Author Topic: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600  (Read 9313 times)

chambeshi

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new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« on: February 02, 2018, 13:45:46 »
Well these will be great if Nikon follow through! Especially a 400 f4 PF that delivers top IQ with TCs

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/02/01/the-latest-nikon-patents-400mm-500mm-and-600mm-f-5-6-phase-fresnel-pf-lenses.aspx/#comment-3738624401

MFloyd

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent fo 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2018, 14:40:29 »
Never tested a Fresnel based lens. I don’t understand how a smooth transition is achieved while the Fresnel lenshas discrete transitions embedded in the design. Moreover, a Fresnel design is about 150 years old. And it is only now (or about) they implement it into photography lenses.
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chambeshi

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent fo 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2018, 14:45:37 »
Never tested a Fresnel based lens. I don’t understand how a smooth transition is achieved while the Fresnel, part of the lens, has discrete transitions embedded in the design. Moreover, a Fresnel design is more than a century old. And it only now (or about) they implement it into photography lenses.
Canon introduced fresnel at least a decade ago. The 300 PF is a resounding success. This is beyond glitches with its VR on certain DSLRs with lenses of SN pre 205101.
Here is an interview from 2015 with the Nikon designers [google translate works]
https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/688994.html


chris dees

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2018, 16:43:06 »
It looks good, but I'm afraid they will be sold at top prices.
The Canon 400/4.0 DO II sells in Holland at €6799,00 and I bet a Nikon one won't be any cheaper. :(

From what I've read they're F5.6 lenses, not F4.0, so that could save a few bucks
Chris Dees

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2018, 17:15:21 »
if they even make them.They have tons of patents but they don't make everything.

That said some telephoto primes that aren't an arm and  a leg would be nice.  I don;t much like zooms due to image quality but a 500mm prime that isn't huge would be pretty nice.

Akira

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2018, 23:34:00 »
Apparently this is the source of the info: a blog by a Japanese engineer:

http://hi-lows-note.blog.so-net.ne.jp/

See the entry on the Feb. 1st.

I wonder what "Y=21.6mm" means?  If it indicates the flange back, these lenses should be for the upcoming Z-mount mirrorless Nikon.
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2018, 23:57:56 »
I wonder what "Y=21.6mm" means?  If it indicates the flange back, these lenses should be for the upcoming Z-mount mirrorless Nikon.

image height. one half of the sensor diagonal.

Akira

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2018, 00:32:27 »
image height. one half of the sensor diagonal.

Ah, I see!  Thank you!
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Mongo

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2018, 06:27:34 »
About time !!!   Mongo has been screaming for these lenses for years even if it did not involve the Fresnel type tenses. Now that it does .... Even better but this will make them more expensive. Let's see what the final price/package is.

chambeshi

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2018, 10:28:02 »
About time !!!   Mongo has been screaming for these lenses for years even if it did not involve the Fresnel type tenses. Now that it does .... Even better but this will make them more expensive. Let's see what the final price/package is.

Be interesting to see how Nikon follows up on these patents. The market monopoly in Nikon-fit teles enjoyed by Nikon since the 1970s changed with release of the 150-600 Sigma Sport, even though it is still too slow with not good enough IQ for many of us. Then the 500 f4 Sport from Sigma appeared in 2016. It is being taken very seriously. Brad Hill's exhaustive testing against the 500 f4E VR Nikkor makes an interesting read. He finally sent back the Nikkor. Their IQs are very very close. Sigma's 500 Sport is a bit heavier but benefits from focusing-tuning software. Not least, the Sigma is 58-65% the price of the Nikon.

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html#sigma500withTC

http://www.naturalart.ca/artist/fieldtests/500mmwars_sigma_nikon.html

Canon's 400 f4 DO at 6500 quid ? Dream on, I say, even if you are in Canon.

The market in wildlife aficionados for more affordable teles is large, and it is growing. Sigma will continue to reap due dividends if Nikon are tardy in releasing any of these models, and do not keep the price(s) in tune with the 300 f4E PF - a bargain IMO for what one gets :-)






chambeshi

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2018, 11:28:05 »
For those of us who enjoyed the 400 f5.6AI / AIS EDIF, these tantalizing telephotos are indeed long overdue.

But today’s DSLR landscape has changed the markets for telephotos of slower speeds. Not only do the exotic Nikkors perform very well with TCs but so does the 300 f4 PF, and the 70-200 zooms (but a bit of a stretch). I often use my 200 f2G VRII as a hefty but well balanced 400 f4 with TC2 III. I find this combo that much easier to handhold than the equally excellent 300 f2.8G with TCs. And the 200+TC2 gives the better IQ and AF performance on the D500 and D850... but I do so wish for a lighter prime of 2 kg and even lighter. The 400 f5.6AIS is a nifty 1.2kg :-)

Together, the TC factor and high-res sensors on top DSLRs focus the choices open to us, as to where one invests one’s money. The high prices, and gear weight, especially those jobs-worth terrorizing airline checkins constrain us to seek the Singular Telephoto. But it must hold the capacity for top IQ with TCs for still longer focal lengths – when needed to 700mm and 800mm. And I readily confess this need for a lighter tele prime in the guise of the 300 f4 PF has become an enduring quest. Such that I have been in email communication with Sigma, motivating for what I see as obvious gaps in inventories.... I'm reliably informed that these requests reach the Optical Design Division across the desk of their affable CEO - most pleasant feedback :-)

The time for lighter AF tele primes delivering topnotch IQ has never been better, given how a swelling market for affordable telephotos interfaces with the modern state of optical technology and the remarkably superb digital cameras. I see the Teleconverter Factor sitting in the core of this triangle....Especially, how a telephoto ranks in its TC Factor.

Here's my summary of options with these potential PF telephotos for FL extension-potential with Teleconverters:

-----------------OL (mm) ------------- TC14 ------------- TC17 ------------------- TC20
300 f4 PF --------148 ------------ 420 f5.6 ------------ 510 f6.7 -------------- 600 f8

400 f3.3 PF ------220----------- 560 f4.8 ------------ 680 f5.6 ------------- 800 f6.7
400 f4 PF ---------220----------- 560 f5.6 ----------- 680 f6.7 -------------- 800 f8

500 f4 PF ----------280---------- 700 f5.6 ------------ 850 f6.7 ------------- 1000 f8
500 f5.6 PF -------280---------- 700 f6.7 ------------- 850 f8 ---------------- N/O

600 f5.6 PF --------320-------- 840 f8 ---------------- N/O -------------------- N/O

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The “DX Performance Envelope” with tighter FoV is another big factor at play, and so too is the “croppability” of images we enjoy out of a D8*0 and especially the D850. IMO the credible IQ with TC14 and DX Performance Envelope underwrite the success of the 300 f4 PF – again especially with wildlife.

Where TC capacity is a key factor for wildlife / action, the sad fact is – really guts me to say this – but the 400 f5.6 is dead-on-arrival. A 400 f5.6 PF is the Perfect Compact tele prime for landscapes etc - but too restricted in its modes of use as the Singular Telephoto for BIF and similar subjects. IMHO, this factor also weakens the potential of the excellent 200-500 f5.6 (primarily Nikon’s response to Sigma zooms, so strategically priced in response to this competition). So here I have no option but put my hard earned lucre in a 500 f4 - the Sigma f4 Sport to be precise, saving 3500 quid for other glass.

The only one of these f5.6 telephotos that qualifies as the Singular investment for wildlife is a 600mm – especially if its PF design keeps it light in weight, and wow!! what a prime in one's hands with a length of ~320mm  ;D ;D


chambeshi

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2018, 11:49:17 »
In summary,  the manufacturers who ignore this reality of the TC factor constraining the market for Telephoto primes do so at their peril. Certain telephotos fall too short in their TC Factor. The writing on the proverbial wall is bright and undeniable.  A 400 or 500 at 5.6 is too restricting in its max aperture. But demands are for a lens to weigh even less, and competition will tighten the pricing window…

 - Today's extra-low dispersion, Phase-Fresnel and fluorite elements with lightweight alloys and composite polymers make it feasible to design and manufacture not only a lighter 400mm f4 PF FL – but a 400 f3.3 PF.  By reliable accounts, the OPTIA simulation equipment that empowered Nikon to optimize their 58 f1.4G, 85 f1.4G and 105 f105E primes hugely cuts costs and time in R&D. The other top optical designers are likely to have similar digital support to advance a new lens a long way, before they commit to prototypes, testing and troubleshooting production etc.

- To conclude, with the optimal capacity for extension with TCs, I see a 400 f3.3 PF (max dia = 122mm) as a most versatile prime [see Table of its TC-Factor above]. Even without Fresnel technology - but using FL elements - a 400 f3.3 should weigh not much over 2 kg. So it is interesting to consider the mass of a 400 f3.3 PF ? A 500 f4 PF (max dia = 125mm) is the other option but Nikon probably will not go here to try and keep high prices on their exotic teles. The trend could see more wildlife and sport photographers heading into the arms of Sigma, who are more than likely to get out a 400 f4 Sport – even better a 400 f3.3 Sport !

Fyi with respect to OPTIA, interviews with Nikon’s designers – notably Haruo Sato wrt the 105 f1.4E [google translate works]
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/1017554.html
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/1018916.html


EDIT - see translation of key points kindly posted by Akira in October 2016
http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,4593.msg72196.html#msg72196

This earlier interview on the 58 f1.4G also gives interesting insights into the D versus G models of the 85 f1.4 primes
https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/621449.html


Akira

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2018, 12:52:35 »
Fyi with respect to OPTIA, interviews with Nikon’s designers – notably Haruo Sato wrt the 105 f1.4E [google translate works]
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/1017554.html
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/1018916.html


FWIW, I posted a summary of the very interviews shortly after they were posted.

http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,4593.msg72196.html#msg72196
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chambeshi

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2018, 13:05:23 »
FWIW, I posted a summary of the very interviews shortly after they were posted.

http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,4593.msg72196.html#msg72196
Thank you for the reminder, in Edit i added to the post above :-) That is how I found that site months back, and also the 2015 interview about the 300 f4E PF (link also in earlier post in this thread)

Frank Fremerey

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Re: new PF Nikkor telephotos? patent for 400, 500 & 600
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2018, 16:36:05 »
Well these will be great if Nikon follow through! Especially a 400 f4 PF that delivers top IQ with TCs

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/02/01/the-latest-nikon-patents-400mm-500mm-and-600mm-f-5-6-phase-fresnel-pf-lenses.aspx/#comment-3738624401

The 600PF is interesting for me to supplement the 300PF which is phantastic!
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