Author Topic: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)  (Read 21105 times)

David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2017, 20:21:59 »
Image noise replaces resolution and dynamic range so the high megapixel camera is consumed with recording non-image data at high ISO.
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2017, 20:34:45 »
... I feel the D7500's removal of this feature sends just a confusing message - Nikon used to be proud about their lens compatibility now they've made a confusing mess of it. They've introduced AF-P lenses that seem to autofocus superbly in live view on compatible cameras but few cameras support them. I think my issue with this is that we cannot trust Nikon to hold compatibility or be consistent about it. ...


... People are reporting Nikon software doesn't work to Nikon all over the place (I've sent several reports of problems and they thank me for reporting them and say that they pass them ahead but many of those software problems have not been fixed several years after my reports) and Nikon Japan are oblivious and refuse to do anything about it. ...


... SD card failure is in my experience a relatively common occurrence, and I'd be uncomfortable relying on a single SD card for anything that cannot be reshot easily. I've had several relatively high end SD cards (Sandisk extreme pro) simply stopped working with no apparent abuse. I've not had any failures of CF or XQD cards though.

The uncertainty regarding future compatibility of Nikkor lenses is at best unpleasant. In the case of very expensive lenses one wonders if they should wait and see or maybe just not buy at all.

The Nikon software situation is a best shameful. Nikon needs to release firmware and software updates where needed.

I've never liked SD cards. I wish Nikon would stop using them.

Dave Hartman
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Les Olson

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2017, 20:50:43 »
I used to have the 135/2.8 Ai and loved it for its compactness and sold it for very little money when I got the D70 as I felt Nikon would not support non-CPU lenses in my price class of camera body. However, they added non-CPU support in the D200 so then I've reacquired some manual focus lenses. I feel the D7500's removal of this feature sends just a confusing message - Nikon used to be proud about their lens compatibility now they've made a confusing mess of it. They've introduced AF-P lenses that seem to autofocus superbly in live view on compatible cameras but few cameras support them. I think my issue with this is that we cannot trust Nikon to hold compatibility or be consistent about it. And with lack of trust it becomes difficult to make an investment in the gear. I do not think manual focus lens use is that uncommon - there are no records of who owns and uses second hand gear and on which camera bodies. I know quite a few people who like to fish bargains online and manual focus metering support matters to them. In my opinion Nikon should provide stopped down metering support on the D7500 in a firmware upgrade. There is no disadvantage to providing it and it can help people, e.g., when using a macro bellows setup (a perfectly legitimate application for a DX camera that supports electronic first curtain shutter). The D7500 does not meter with manual focus lenses that do not have a CPU. There was a specifications error originally on Nikon's pages that suggested there would be metering but they fixed the error.

There are records of how many people are using Ai and Ai-S lenses: market price.  If the lenses are bargains that means demand is low relative to supply.   

As of right now Nikon say the D7500 is "Compatible with AF NIKKOR lenses, including type G, E and D lenses (some restrictions apply to PC lenses) and AI-P NIKKOR lenses and non-CPU AI lenses (M mode only); IX-NIKKOR lenses, lenses for the F3AF, and non-AI lenses can not be used".  What they say for the D7200 is "Compatible with AF NIKKOR lenses, including type G, E and D lenses (some restrictions apply to PC lenses) and DX lenses, AI-P NIKKOR lenses, and non-CPU AI lenses (A and M modes only)".  So the D7500 has lost aperture priority with non-CPU lenses; it has not lost metering.  You just have to use manual mode.  And worst case all you have to do is use a light meter.

It is inevitable that there will be some limit to backward compatibility, and there always has been.  Pre-Ai lenses cannot be used on digital, and G lenses cannot be used on the FM3: how come those things never made you doubt the wisdom of committing to Nikon but limited automation with Ai-S lenses on the D7500 does?  The level of backward compatibility Nikon is providing with the D7500 is high, by camera industry standards - let alone any other technology-based industry.  Can you mount any pre-1987 Canon lens on any Canon digital camera?  No. (And that was the 3rd time Canon abandoned a mount, because the EF replaced the FD, which had replaced the FL, which had replaced the R).  Can you mount any Olympus OM manual focus lens on any Olympus digital camera?  No - unless you buy the adapter, and you have to stop-down meter, and as of today the adapter is out of stock at Olympus (https://getolympus.com/mf-2-om-adapter-om-to-micro-four-thirds-lens-adapter.html).  And then there is Sony.

There are lots of things that are presently found only in higher-level cameras that you or I might like in lower-level cameras - a dedicated AF-On button, in my case, eg.  There are also lots of things that you or I might feel would be no loss if they were only found in higher-level cameras - a tilting LCD, in my case, eg.   The fact that they might be easily or cheaply included is really beside the point, because for every person who would value a dedicated AF-On button or a tilting LCD or aperture priority with Ai-S lenses there will be someone who would regard that feature as futile expense.

Roland Vink

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2017, 23:02:07 »
Quote
So the D7500 has lost aperture priority with non-CPU lenses; it has not lost metering.  You just have to use manual mode.  And worst case all you have to do is use a light meter.
I think Akira tried the D7500 with manual lenses: no metering was possible, same as D5xxx and D3xxx models, so the statement from Nikon seems to be misleading.

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Pre-Ai lenses cannot be used on digital
Actually, many pre-AI lenses will fit low-end DSLRs such as the D3xxx and D5xxx series, without modification. No metering though. And they will fit the Df of course.

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Can you mount any pre-1987 Canon lens on any Canon digital camera?
Canon's lens compatibility since changing to the EOS mount is far superior than Nikon...

David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2017, 23:08:05 »
Something I've noticed over the decades is Nikon badly needs qualified proofreaders.

Dave
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2017, 23:13:35 »
So the D7500 has lost aperture priority with non-CPU lenses; it has not lost metering. 

We have a first hand report from a person who tested this  using an actual D7500 and says that no metering is provided with non-CPU lenses mounted on the D7500.  M mode is possible you can set the aperture and shutter speed but there is no metering. Nikon's site is probably in error if they claim otherwise. 

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It is inevitable that there will be some limit to backward compatibility, and there always has been.  Pre-Ai lenses cannot be used on digital, and G lenses cannot be used on the FM3: how come those things never made you doubt the wisdom of committing to Nikon but limited automation with Ai-S lenses on the D7500 does?   

During the film era it was valuable to have old cameras use new lenses since the image quality was not affected by the camera choice, but since digital surpassed the image quality of 35mm film, and keeps improving, most people no longer use old cameras to solve their practical photographic puzzles. Many older lenses still have value though and they give their best quality images on modern digital sensors. Some lenses are completely modern but have no CPU functionality. These lenses have characteristics which are interesting and still relevant. I don't need to go back so far as to require pre-Ai lenses to be compatible with modern digital cameras because those lenses are so old it would be difficult to find one in good shape today. I am not saying such copies do not exist but I don't need to go that far back in time to find the lenses that I need. As far as I know, the Df can be used with pre-Ai lenses if this is something that one wants to do. But the majority of F mount manual focus lenses that are still relevant today are at least Ai or Ai-S. In fact some Ai-S Nikkors are still current lenses sold by Nikon. There is no CPU-equipped bellows available for Nikon, and Nikon extension tubes are Ai not G or P or E or D, and certainly not AF. If you mount a camera on a microscope you may want metering.  The PC Nikkor 35mm doesn't have metering coupling but it would still be nice to have metering with it.

The market price of manual focus lenses was reduced by Nikon reducing compatibility and viewfinder quality.  Some manual focus lenses have still held their value well; I recall buying a 28/2 Ai-S for about 800 pounds ten years ago. A marvellous lens that yielded some fabulous images. I know there are many others of similar value. If Nikon was straightforward about the compatibility and provided excellent viewfinders in every camera, the manual focus lenses would be more highly valued today on the used market. I believe some of them have unique character and can yield very beautiful images. That certainly was true of the Ai-S 28/2 (another prized lens is the 58/1.2 Noct-Nikkor). Today there is a 28/1.8 AF-S but the colour character is different and the manual focus ring is poorly made. Manual focus is valuable because one may be photographing a group of people approaching and one may want to place the focus between two persons, for example, to optimize the use of depth of field. This is something that is not possible with autofocus. With the 35/1.4G the manual focus ring is good enough to do this task though, but not on the 28/1.8, 24/1.4 or 20/1.8 AF-S. This is really annoying in my opinion that Nikon neglects manual focus on many of their wide angle primes. Thankfully there is at least the 35/1.4G where this is not an issue.

Anyway Nikon have shown some good faith and support to manual focus users in the form of the Df. Interchangeable focusing screens optimized for fast lenses and precisely calibrated viewfinders across the lineup would be a nice addition. Perhaps Nikon could add interchangeable focusing screens in the next version of the Df. I think that would go down very well with the people who want to use this type of a camera.

David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2017, 23:52:43 »
I must agree that slop in the focus ring of many recent AF Nikkors is very annoying.

The lack of a precise red/green/red manual focus indicator limits the usefulness of the feature. The R/G/R indicator found in the F5 was fairly easy to use with peripheral vision.

The D800 and D300s have focus screens that are far from ideal for focusing on the matte surface of the focus screen.

The D70's penta mirror viewfinder may well be the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by an Iron Age prophet in captivity.

Oh one more time: why doesn't Nikon offer stop down metering with Auto Aperture?

Dave the Disenfranchised
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2017, 00:19:52 »
I must agree that slop in the focus ring of many recent AF Nikkors is very annoying.

Yes. By contrast Sony seems to do manual focus on autofocus lenses quite well. Maybe Nikon could open up some of their lenses and see inside.

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The D800 and D300s have focus screens that are far from ideal for focusing on the matte surface of the focus screen.

The D810 viewfinder is slightly better though, it has a slightly crispier image. I think the D5 VF has a crispy image and it feels like the illumination is more even. The Df is another camera where the viewfinder is very good. There is some hope after desolation of viewfinders in the early years of digital.

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The D70's penta mirror viewfinder may well be the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by an Iron Age prophet in captivity.

Yes, it was terrible.

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2017, 00:47:50 »
---
Oh one more time: why doesn't Nikon offer stop down metering with Auto Aperture?
---

They will not do that as long as there is an aperture linkage present (and the lens is not E, for which this 'feature' would be easy to implement). The reasons are complex yet quite understandable if you are familiar with the Nikon way of thinking.

dibyendumajumdar

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2017, 00:58:10 »
I used to be an advocate for the same approach but there's no need for me anymore as the high MP sensors now also offer high enough ISO performance and run circles around the high ISO cameras in the DR department.

The extreme high ISO sensors lack in DR compared to their high MP counterparts, as a general use camera the high MP cameras are now the better choice were in the past this used to be a low MP and high ISO camera because the high MP cameras didn't deliver the needed usable ISO range for my kind of use.

A camera with a good AF, 40ish MP sensor, huge DR range and 8fps would be my perfect camera.

Not everyone needs high resolution though.

The reason I think a D8xxH makes sense is that Nikon would then have a camera that counters 5D Mark IV. The D750 is in a different price bracket - it makes sense for Nikon to create D8xxH simply because they can make bigger profits from it. As we see from the D500 attempt - there is a perception that cameras like D7200 or D750 are not in the same category as a D300 or D700 - whether that perception is justified is not the issue.

Making a D8xxH will also allow Nikon to go much higher resolution with D8xxX.
 
It is great to design Nikon cameras in this forum! I bet Nikon is already manufacturing the next series so whatever we discuss here has no effect on what will be released!

Regards
Dibyendu


Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2017, 01:06:33 »
The last statement is true with probability 1.

However, don't underestimate the final polish on any model [lens, camera] being field tested as a result of the testers' feedback. I know this happens from personal experience.

Les Olson

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2017, 14:43:22 »
I think Akira tried the D7500 with manual lenses: no metering was possible, same as D5xxx and D3xxx models, so the statement from Nikon seems to be misleading.

Of course it is possible Nikon is wrong.  However, there are other cases where the camera has no idea what the lens aperture is and the camera still meters: when you use the BR-2A reversing ring, eg, which is just a lump of metal.  On my D7000, with a BR-2A and reversed lens attached the aperture is shown in the viewfinder as 1.4 and twiddling the aperture control wheel has no effect; you can change the shutter speed normally.  Despite the aperture showing as 1.4 all the time, the camera meters perfectly normally in M mode.  That is, you can find a shutter speed / aperture-set-on-the-lens combination that indicates correct exposure, and when you look at the photograph the exposure is correct.  It is the same on my V1 with the FT1 and BR-2A and reversed lens.  You don't even have to have anything attached to the camera: it still meters and still indicates the change of exposure when you change the ISO or the shutter speed. 

You would only lose this functionality if (1) the camera preserves the automatic aperture and does not have a DoF preview button or has one that locks the exposure (like the D7000), or (2) attaching a non-CPU lens gave you an error message that locks the camera, like the fEE when you attach a D lens with the aperture not set to minimum.  The second would make it impossible to use those lenses, but I have not heard that anywhere and I did not think that was what Akira reported.   

Not being able to stop down is not a big deal. You can still use non-CPU lenses: all you have to do is use a light meter.  Sure, that is a bit more work, but does it really justify rending of garments? 

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2017, 15:01:15 »
In the situations you describe as providing metering, there is NO aperture linkage. Herein lies the clue.

Les Olson

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2017, 19:16:51 »
In the situations you describe as providing metering, there is NO aperture linkage. Herein lies the clue.

Yes, but the point is to avoid conflating the question of whether the camera can meter, with the question of whether the camera can use the meter reading for automated control of lens/camera function.  The distinction is important, so to speak, because if the meter is active and the camera does not lock exposure when you activate DoF preview you can use the internal meter to determine if you have the correct shutter speed for the taking aperture even if the camera has no idea what that aperture is, just as you can with the BR-2A.  The FM3, for one, does not lock exposure when you activate DoF preview.  I have no idea about the D7500, but that is the question people who want to use Ai-S lenses with it need to ask.  Plus, there are Ai-S lenses, such as the 28/3.5 PC, which have the ability to move the diaphragm to its taking aperture without consulting the camera, and if the D7500 meter is working it should be possible to set correct exposures for them also. 

Or people who want to use the D7500 with Ai-S lenses could just use a light meter.  Even if they have to buy one, that is still cheaper than a D500 - and people should be using incident light metering far more often than they do, so it is a win-win.

People who wish to use obsolescent technology need to come to terms with the possibility that it will transition from obsolescent to obsolete.  That applies just as much to Ai lenses as to film, vinyl records, and un-pasteurised milk cheese, and it is - sadly - irrelevant whether the obsolescence is due to any genuine technical superiority of the new equivalents - as, IMO, it is not in any of these cases.  Wanting to use obsolescent technologies because you, but not most people, think they are of higher quality is always associated with a need to move up-market, and if those who wish to use Ai lenses experience nothing worse they should light a candle.     

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2017, 20:06:00 »
Les, it is not for you to decide when a particular item becomes obsolete. It is decided by the users on a case by case basis for each application. Nikon's fate is also decided by the users. Disrespect towards users does no one any good.