Author Topic: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)  (Read 21128 times)

David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2017, 22:23:08 »
Something I would like to see is the red/green/red LED focus confirmation lights used in the F5. I could use those with peripheral vision. I don't think those will ever come back. They were much easier to use than the current green/green/green LCD indicators.

Dave
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dibyendumajumdar

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2017, 23:06:28 »
I somehow think that Nikon might split the D8xx line into H and X versions, with the H version being the "true successor" to D700. This is purely a guess on my part, but it seems like Nikon is trying to repeat the formula they had with D3/D300, which was followed by D700/D3x except that a D5x probably doesn't make sense (in that a high resolution camera doesn't need to be as hardy as a D5). So I think we could see a baby D5 in D8xxH and a high resolution successor in D8xxX.

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David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2017, 02:30:23 »
I somehow think that Nikon might split the D8xx line into H and X versions, with the H version being the "true successor" to D700.

Yes! Please! I would like one of each.

Dave
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2017, 14:23:57 »
Yes! Please! I would like one of each.

I understand that but what would you then tell to the current D750 user who is offered a "D760" with no Ai metering, possibly no in-body AF motor, no vertical grip option, a single card slot, maybe a fuzzy pentamirror viewfinder in order to differentiate this camera from the "D820H"? We have to be careful what we ask Nikon to do. The D500 is a great product but its presence in the lineup lead to Nikon introduding a slightly crippled D7500 (with no Ai metering, no second card slot, and no vertical grip option). A D820H in the lineup would no doubt cause repercussions into the D750's successor's feature set.  Similarly if Nikon would make a D5X, the D810's successor would probably be stripped of some high end features that the current D810 includes. I think this would be really bad both for users and the company.

I think it would be nice if Nikon got rid of this kind of product design philosophy where features are omitted from lower end models not because they could not be there or because they're expensive to make but because they want to promote sales of the higher end products. I don't think it's going down well in the current marketplace that they remove important features from a product line's successors. But I fear that this is the way things are going to continue for now. Canon also gets a lot of bad PR from not offering all-out video features in their DSLR and mirrorless products, as they want to differentiate these products from their dedicated cinema line products. For some reason though, Canon products seem to sell really well despite of this ... so maybe the way online discussions represent people's feelings about products and what goes on in the actual purchase decisions are different.

Akira

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2017, 17:14:58 »
Ilkka, I totally agree with you.
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2017, 21:51:24 »
If the D750 and D800 had the same image sensors the control set differentiates them. The D750 doesn't have enough (for me) controls for fast paced event photography, JP, stepchild PR and any event where FV and AF-ON is needed. The "D620" is the obvious camera to strip of AI metering support. I'd look for that. Nikon needs to be profitable. To do they they need products that support the features most target customers want and those they don't want need to be pared away.

Another thing to consider in the future of Nikon is the Sony A9. Like it or not I think the 35mm format mirrorless (SLM if you will) is now established. Nikon and Canon will have to release 36x24mm mirrorless professional cameras. I'm sure these cameras are in the works at both companies.

Anyway a company has to please the majority of the target customers. If most customers of the D7500 don't use manual focus lenses then those who want to will have to ante up to a D500. It's the work of a benevolent dictator to guess how the "voters" will vote with their money.

Dave Hartman
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2017, 00:05:15 »
I can't really agree with that. The D610 is an affordable, excellent body for slow photography (landscape, etc.) and manual focus lenses are a reasonable match to it (big viewfinder, uses the whole image circle). One of the important reasons people are using manual focus lenses is because it allows photographers to experiment with exotics at a reduced cost. The D610 allows photographers to record the full image of 35mm format lenses on a smaller budget so it is only natural that the D610 and manual focus lenses should find each other.

Nikon do not need to strip bodies of features. What they need to do is make better products that people will want to buy. If they need to ask more money, increase the prices of the products as required. With most higher end lenses they've certainly done that already (just look at the prices of the 105/1.4, 70-200/2.8E, and 19 PC from 2016).

Nikon decided to sacrifice some D7500 sales to benefit the D500 and make a clearer distinction between the two cameras. If I think about my use of a DX body, it involves telephoto for sure, and I always use a vertical grip for shooting with medium long to long lenses so that I can properly support both my elbows on my chest. So the price of entry for this type of camera then moved to from 1169€ (current price of D7200 + MB-D15) to 2564€ (D500 + MB-D17). Suddenly it starts to feel like 2004 again.

If you need an action FX body with a full set of controls, there is always the D5 (or one of its predecessors, the D4s etc. on the used market).

Obviously Nikon and Canon will make mirrorless systems but I believe they will be different systems from the current F and EF mounts and require new lenses to make the mirrorless AF perform acceptably or well. I don't think they can make the AF work well with DSLR lenses which is why there is such delay and hesitation from both Canon and Nikon. I just spoke to a friend who was testing the latest dual pixel AF from Canon and comparing it with entry level DSLR AF. The dual pixel AF apparently couldn't focus on low contrast detail in dim light whereas the dedicated AF module could. Mirrorless have some benefits obviously and I'm sure the systems will coexist for the foreseeable future.

David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2017, 02:57:37 »
If you need an action FX body with a full set of controls, there is always the D5 (or one of its predecessors, the D4s etc. on the used market).

The D5 at around $6,500.00 (USD) is priced well beyond the means of many photographers. It's also somewhat heavy to hand hold for many hours. It's not a viable option for many. The D4s is still quite expensive with older AF higher high ISO noise. For most of my use I'd speed up the CL advance to 5 or 6 fps and squeeze off single frames. I don't need 10 to 12 fps.

Dave
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2017, 03:40:21 »
Another issue I have is no replacement for the 105/2.5 AI/AIS. You've probably held an AF-S 105/2.8G ED-IF VR. It's a Honker! It's as fat as 180/2.8 ED AIS and with its matched hood it's not small and discreet. It dwarfs even the 105/2.8 AIS Micro. I gave up and bought the 105/2.8G ED VR. I needed fast AF and found VR useful where I can't set down a tripod.

Would I like a D5 and a AF-S 105/1.4E ED? Yes! Would I have to workout to make full use of them? Yes.

Dave
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Les Olson

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2017, 10:54:09 »
The D500 is a great product but its presence in the lineup lead to Nikon introduding a slightly crippled D7500 (with no Ai metering, no second card slot, and no vertical grip option).

For some reason though, Canon products seem to sell really well despite of this ... so maybe the way online discussions represent people's feelings about products and what goes on in the actual purchase decisions are different.

There are two reasons online discussions do not represent purchasing decisions.  One is that camera companies manipulate internet discussions in their own interest - some ineptly (Nikon), some very cleverly (Sony).  The other is that people involved in internet discussions are atypical.  People on this forum, eg, like manual focus lenses, and value metering with Ai lenses, but we are a very small minority - that is why MF lenses are cheap. 

You cannot say that Nikon has a strategy of crippling consumer cameras based on things they either have not done (the D7500 does not have "no Ai metering", with Ai lenses it meters centre-weighted or spot only and only in M mode) or that are perfectly reasonable, like removing the second card slot, let alone things you imagine them doing, like putting a penta-mirror in the D760. 

The modal number of lenses bought by dSLR owners is 1, and the mean is 1.5, including the kit lens: most people who buy a DX Nikon camera will never buy a lens other than the kit lens.  For those who do, it is overwhelmingly likely that it will be AF-S.  Here is a graph of interchangeable lens sales since 1965 (all brands).  Sales were steady at about 5 million units a year from 1980 until 2003, then they took off (https://photographylife.com/a-few-thoughts-about-the-camera-market/).  As many lenses were sold in 2012 as in all the years between the introduction of AF-D lenses and the introduction of AF-S.  Removing the ability to AF with AF and AF-D lenses just does not affect a lot of people.  Sure, Nikon has always valued backwards compatibility - and they evidently still do, because the D7500 is compatible with AF-D lenses, and there is no reason to suppose the D760 will not be.   

Why, exactly, do you need two card slots?  Card capacity has gone up much faster than file size: when SD cards were introduced in 2000 the maximum capacity was 2GB, and a D70 produced files about 5MB (= 400 shots per card), so there was a reason for two slots.  By 2006, when SDHC cards were introduced, maximum capacity was 32GB and the D80 gave you file sizes up to 10MB (=3200 shots per card); when SDXC was introduced in 2009 maximum capacity was 2TB, and the D7500 will probably give you file sizes up to 40MB (=5000 shots per card).  Sure, you can put RAW files on one card and JPEGs on the other, if you shoot RAW + JPEG, and if you don't upload all your files onto the same computer having them on separate cards is handy, but why would you do that?  The same is true of the vertical grip: a D70 gave you 250-400 shots per charge, but a D7500 will give you 1200, so many fewer users need to carry extra batteries (it's different for a mirrorless camera, of course). 


Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2017, 11:33:34 »
The D5 at around $6,500.00 (USD) is priced well beyond the means of many photographers. It's also somewhat heavy to hand hold for many hours. It's not a viable option for many. The D4s is still quite expensive with older AF higher high ISO noise. For most of my use I'd speed up the CL advance to 5 or 6 fps and squeeze off single frames.

The D810 can do 5 fps in FX (6 fps in 1.2x crop) and it is smaller and quieter than the D5 (though if the vertical grip is mounted it is similar).  If you don't need more than 5-6 fps then is there really a need for a separate D820H, or would the (rumored) high resolution D820 do?

I find the large bodies more comfortable as vertical grip doesn't have to be tightened, there is no wiggle in the joint, and the controls don't have to be fit on either the main body or the vertical grip, in the integrated solution they can be also in the "in-between" area since there is no gap. For some reason I find the older D3X just to fall in hand more than the D5, maybe it is because the older model doesn't have so many controls. On the other hand, the joysticks are an improvement for jiggling the focus point around.

Some practice makes the camera weight not so noticeable any more when in use, and I like the weight to be concentrated near my chest instead of far away (as when hand holding a long lens). If carrying two bodies, then having all of them with vertical grips gets heavy quickly and I get that the smaller bodies have their place.

I've been wondering why Nikon have not made compact intermediate aperture medium tele primes apart from the 85/1.8 in AF-S. Maybe they regard the 70-200/4 sufficient to fill the needs of a compact medium tele and for a longer tele, there is the 300/4 PF. These two can reduce bag weight a lot. I realize the 70-200/4 is not f/2.8 or f/2.5, but it does render beautiful images and the zooming offers additional value. I no longer have that zoom (I needed to consolidate gear) but selling it was probably one of the dumbest moves I've made.

Yes, the 105/1.4 is large and heavy, but it is so sharp and at least on the D5 the autofocus is so precise that one can just crop by 2x even in very low light and the cropped image still looks good (I've done this in a dimly lit church and it looked very nice, beyond my expectations), so one could think of it as a 105-200/1.4-2.8 equivalent in practical low light event photography applications and when thinking of it like that, its weight does not feel so bad any more. I think it is better not to think about what Nikon have not made (i.e. AF-S 105/2.5, AF-S 135/2.8, or AF-S 180/2.8 ) but what they have made and how it can be used differently because of the specifications change, rather than regret what used to be. I am not criticising the 105/2.5, or 135/2.8, or 180/2.8; I would love to have some compact tele primes with AF-S myself, but if I think about the practical applications, the current lenses do a good job.

Zeiss now makes a 135/2.8 for Sony E mount and obviously it is smaller and lighter than the 105/1.4 even if the two lenses cost the same (!). Perhaps Nikon will make compact tele primes for a mirrorless system once the time comes. However, I've adjusted expectations and will work with what is available for Nikon. For example the f/1.8 primes from 20mm to 50mm are light weight and produce good image quality (the 85/1.8 could be included as well but I left it out to avoid overlap). The 70-200/4 picks up from there and we finish our light weight Nikon DSLR system with the 300/4 PF. It's not so bad! But, as always there are complaints that "the fire was put out in the wrong way." A perfect fit for everyone can not be realistically achieved.

David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2017, 11:47:39 »
The D810 can do 5 fps in FX (6 fps in 1.2x crop) and it is smaller and quieter than the D5 (though if the vertical grip is mounted it is similar).  If you don't need more than 5-6 fps then is there really a need for a separate D820H, or would the (rumored) high resolution D820 do?

The rumored D820 won't have the high ISO performance of a D5. My biggest problem with the D800 is its high ISO performance. I didn't even want the 36MP NEF(s) though I soon grew to like them but only to about 1000 ISO. What I really wanted when I bought the D800 was a camera with its control set with the D4s' 16MP image sensor.

Dave

What I should have bought when I bought the D300s was a D700. Even there it was primarily price that held me back.
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2017, 12:16:54 »
People on this forum, eg, like manual focus lenses, and value metering with Ai lenses, but we are a very small minority - that is why MF lenses are cheap. 

I used to have the 135/2.8 Ai and loved it for its compactness and sold it for very little money when I got the D70 as I felt Nikon would not support non-CPU lenses in my price class of camera body. However, they added non-CPU support in the D200 so then I've reacquired some manual focus lenses. I feel the D7500's removal of this feature sends just a confusing message - Nikon used to be proud about their lens compatibility now they've made a confusing mess of it. They've introduced AF-P lenses that seem to autofocus superbly in live view on compatible cameras but few cameras support them. I think my issue with this is that we cannot trust Nikon to hold compatibility or be consistent about it. And with lack of trust it becomes difficult to make an investment in the gear. I do not think manual focus lens use is that uncommon - there are no records of who owns and uses second hand gear and on which camera bodies. I know quite a few people who like to fish bargains online and manual focus metering support matters to them. In my opinion Nikon should provide stopped down metering support on the D7500 in a firmware upgrade. There is no disadvantage to providing it and it can help people, e.g., when using a macro bellows setup (a perfectly legitimate application for a DX camera that supports electronic first curtain shutter).

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You cannot say that Nikon has a strategy of crippling consumer cameras based on things they either have not done (the D7500 does not have "no Ai metering", with Ai lenses it meters centre-weighted or spot only and only in M mode) or that are perfectly reasonable, like removing the second card slot, let alone things you imagine them doing, like putting a penta-mirror in the D760. 

The D7500 does not meter with manual focus lenses that do not have a CPU. There was a specifications error originally on Nikon's pages that suggested there would be metering but they fixed the error.  Akira reports having confirmed that no metering is available here:

http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,5739.120.html

With the imagined loss of features on a future "D760", I was trying to describe the worst-case scenario to illustrate that the addition of a new model in a lineup can mean bad things for a product that is immediately below it. Nikon removed the sensor dust removal feature from the D3400. It is really a profoundly dumb move in my opinion. I still have one camera body that doesn't have this feature and it picks up and shows dust more often than my other cameras. That Nikon could do such a thing is disrespectful to the consumer. It is not so easy for a regular consumer to clean the sensor and I know people are afraid of doing this. Nikon used to have wifi that works on the D7200 (still is on the D750) and now the wave of a replacement technology which doesn't work (I've tried several times to get my iPhone to connect to any Snapbridge enabled camera with no success) is sweeping the lineup. People are reporting Nikon software doesn't work to Nikon all over the place (I've sent several reports of problems and they thank me for reporting them and say that they pass them ahead but many of those software problems have not been fixed several years after my reports) and Nikon Japan are oblivious and refuse to do anything about it. It is hardly surprising if Nikon cameras and lenses no longer sell. Nikon think it is the market but it is really their own doing.

I keep buying new Nikon equipment because I love their optics and viewfinders but I'm really upset about the poor quality of software that they provide nowadays.

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The modal number of lenses bought by dSLR owners is 1, and the mean is 1.5, including the kit lens: most people who buy a DX Nikon camera will never buy a lens other than the kit lens.  For those who do, it is overwhelmingly likely that it will be AF-S. 

Yes, but there is no record of second hand lens sales and usage. I know that people use both manual focus and AF(D) lenses, especially younger people on a budget. The compatibility has a far more significant role than the purchase of new lenses would suggest.

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Why, exactly, do you need two card slots?

SD card failure is in my experience a relatively common occurrence, and I'd be uncomfortable relying on a single SD card for anything that cannot be reshot easily. I've had several relatively high end SD cards (Sandisk extreme pro) simply stopped working with no apparent abuse. I've not had any failures of CF or XQD cards though.

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2017, 12:37:46 »
I somehow think that Nikon might split the D8xx line into H and X versions, with the H version being the "true successor" to D700.
I used to be an advocate for the same approach but there's no need for me anymore as the high MP sensors now also offer high enough ISO performance and run circles around the high ISO cameras in the DR department.

The extreme high ISO sensors lack in DR compared to their high MP counterparts, as a general use camera the high MP cameras are now the better choice were in the past this used to be a low MP and high ISO camera because the high MP cameras didn't deliver the needed usable ISO range for my kind of use.

A camera with a good AF, 40ish MP sensor, huge DR range and 8fps would be my perfect camera.
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon D820 Specs (rumor)
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2017, 13:21:46 »
Well, at base ISO the D810 dynamic range is excellent but at high ISO it falls quite a bit behind the DR of the D5. In my opinion the DR is more critical at high ISO as the light is often contrasty and requires white balance adjustment and the extra DR of the D5 gives more freedom for handling the lighting contrast and correcting the color. It is more critical because it is a question of whether a usable image can be achieved whereas for low ISO any old camera provides a usable image, and the differences are really subtle. It is really quite a specific situation where the lighting contrast exceeds that which can be represented on paper without local tone mapping but is not so great as not to benefit from exposure blending from multiple exposures. I think base ISO DR is useful but it's more about finesse compared to high ISO where it is often a situation where extra DR can make or break an image.

I too shoot my D810 at up to ISO 1000 happily after which some discomfort with the results starts to mount, though still usable up to ISO 6400. The D5 really is very nice from about 2000 to around 8000 and then I've gotten usable results even at ISO 104200. While I agree the D810's extra dynamic range is invaluable I can still get the shot at ISO 100 with the D5 if that's what is in my hand when the situation calls for it. I couldn't say the same about the D810 at 12800 or 25600.