Author Topic: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes  (Read 47289 times)

Akira

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #120 on: May 02, 2017, 13:59:45 »
Today I went to Nikon Showroom in Shinjuku, and found D7500 on display.

AF is fast and reliable, which is not surprising.  My D750 uses essentially the same AF sensor, and I can say that it is the very first reliable AF system of Nikon DSLR with denser sensors I have used so far.  The AF of two D7000s and a D610 I used was not as reliable.

The shutter sound of D7500 was simple and pleasing.  It felt like a quieter version of D500 sound.  The tilting mechanism of LCD felt a bit flimsy compared to that of D750 and D500.  I didn't feel the Sereebo (the carbon enforced thermo-plastic) shell cheap, but some may feel it otherwise.  The grip felt a bit small, and I would prefer the grip of D7200/7100.  Personally I have felt the grips of the monocoque bodies better than the conventional bodies, but D7500 could be the first exception.

My general impression of D7500 was that it could be placed between D5X00 and the conventional D7X00.  The difference between D7500 and D500 might be better defined than that between D7200 and D500.

Incidentally, the "OK" button can be re-programmed as the 100% magnification button in the review mode, which is a (deep) relief.
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David H. Hartman

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #121 on: May 02, 2017, 21:41:08 »
It sounds like the D7500 is a vsry nice camera for its market position. I do think Nikon's model naming is really out of whack.

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Hugh_3170

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #122 on: May 03, 2017, 04:16:09 »
Hi Akira, thank you for your post re the D7500.

Did you get a chance to confirm/deny whether or not the D7500 can meter with manual focus non-CPU lenses and if it can in fact meter with them what your impressions were?

Thanks in anticipation.


Today I went to Nikon Showroom in Shinjuku, and found D7500 on display.

AF is fast and reliable, which is not surprising.  My D750 uses essentially the same AF sensor, and I can say that it is the very first reliable AF system of Nikon DSLR with denser sensors I have used so far.  The AF of two D7000s and a D610 I used was not as reliable.

The shutter sound of D7500 was simple and pleasing.  It felt like a quieter version of D500 sound.  The tilting mechanism of LCD felt a bit flimsy compared to that of D750 and D500.  I didn't feel the Sereebo (the carbon enforced thermo-plastic) shell cheap, but some may feel it otherwise.  The grip felt a bit small, and I would prefer the grip of D7200/7100.  Personally I have felt the grips of the monocoque bodies better than the conventional bodies, but D7500 could be the first exception.

My general impression of D7500 was that it could be placed between D5X00 and the conventional D7X00.  The difference between D7500 and D500 might be better defined than that between D7200 and D500.

Incidentally, the "OK" button can be re-programmed as the 100% magnification button in the review mode, which is a (deep) relief.
Hugh Gunn

Akira

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #123 on: May 03, 2017, 07:10:12 »
It sounds like the D7500 is a vsry nice camera for its market position. I do think Nikon's model naming is really out of whack.

Dave Hartman

Dave, maybe you should only look at the future, not the past.   :o
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Akira

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #124 on: May 03, 2017, 07:20:15 »
Hi Akira, thank you for your post re the D7500.

Did you get a chance to confirm/deny whether or not the D7500 can meter with manual focus non-CPU lenses and if it can in fact meter with them what your impressions were?

Thanks in anticipation.

Hugh, I'm afraid I haven't confirmed if D7500 can meter with the non-CPU lenses.  According to the spec. sheet on Nikon website, non-CPU lenses can only be used in M mode, and non-Ai lenses cannot be used.

If D7500 could meter with the non-CPU lenses, M mode as well as A mode should be able to be used.  There seems to be no high hope for the meter working with non-CPU lenses...

When I will have chance to go to Nikon showroom before the user's manual become downloadable (not yet), I would be willing to ask about it and report the result here.
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richardHaw

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #125 on: May 03, 2017, 16:02:15 »
http://richardhaw.com/2017/05/03/review-nikon-d7500/

Played around with the D7500 this afternoon  :o :o :o

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #126 on: May 03, 2017, 19:59:17 »
Hmm. I'm wondering why you used the quiet continuous (Qc) drive mode to test for buffer? Qc is about 3fps in all Nikon DSLRs that I'm aware of that support this mode.  CH is the high speed continuous setting (up to 8fps on the D7500).

richardHaw

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #127 on: May 03, 2017, 20:47:35 »
Hmm. I'm wondering why you used the quiet continuous (Qc) drive mode to test for buffer? Qc is about 3fps in all Nikon DSLRs that I'm aware of that support this mode.  CH is the high speed continuous setting (up to 8fps on the D7500).

I mistook it for Ch!!!!  :o :o :o
been shooting film for too long!

Akira

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #128 on: May 06, 2017, 16:09:53 »
Today I revisited Nikon showroom in Shunjuku, Tokyo, and confirmed the (in)compatibility of D7500 with the manual lenses.  In short, it doesn't meter with the manual lenses.  If you want to use an MF lens (Ai or Ais or any adopted ones), you have to switch the camera to M mode and set the shutter speed on the camera and the aperture on the lens.  The only way to make sure of the exposure is to review the image and check out the histogram.

I also confirmed that D3400 doesn't meter even with AF-D Nikkors.  It doesn't have the switch that detects that the aperture ring is set to the highest value, and thus there is no way for the camera to know the setting of the aperture.  D3400 is the first Nikon DSLR that won't meter even with the lens with CPU.  You can, however, set the shutter speed on the camera in M mode, set the aperture on the lens and check out the exposure with the histogram in the review mode.
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Hugh_3170

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #129 on: May 06, 2017, 16:48:52 »
Akira, thanks for providing us with this feedback, even though it is unfortunately as I feared.

It is really quite sad that the D7500 pre-release documentation implied that there may be some metering support for non-cpu lenses, only for the reality to be different.  Maybe I should save up for a D500 or track down a good D7200.  The story about the D3400 seems even more of a dog in the manger situation (not that I am personally interested in buying that camera).

The whole Nikon lens compatibity issue is really quite a sordid mess.

Today I revisited Nikon showroom in Shunjuku, Tokyo, and confirmed the (in)compatibility of D7500 with the manual lenses.  In short, it doesn't meter with the manual lenses.  If you want to use an MF lens (Ai or Ais or any adopted ones), you have to switch the camera to M mode and set the shutter speed on the camera and the aperture on the lens.  The only way to make sure of the exposure is to review the image and check out the histogram.

I also confirmed that D3400 doesn't meter even with AF-D Nikkors.  It doesn't have the switch that detects that the aperture ring is set to the highest value, and thus there is no way for the camera to know the setting of the aperture.  D3400 is the first Nikon DSLR that won't meter even with the lens with CPU.  You can, however, set the shutter speed on the camera in M mode, set the aperture on the lens and check out the exposure with the histogram in the review mode.
Hugh Gunn

Akira

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #130 on: May 06, 2017, 16:55:26 »
High, you are welcome.  Apparently Nikon is going back to the ancient era when the camera had no built-in meter.   :o

Now I fear that the D620 (meaning: the entry level FX model) would offer the same (in)compatibility with the MF lenses...
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Akira

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #131 on: June 05, 2017, 07:32:59 »
I just found that D7200 was marked as "obsolete item (discontinued)" on Nikon's Japanese website.
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Øivind Tøien

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #132 on: June 07, 2017, 05:00:32 »
Yesterday I had to make a quick flight to Anchorage, our closest city, and the site I was to visit on this day trip prohibited bringing any cell phones or cameras, so I had to travel without. There is a good brick and mortar photo store in Anchorage, and they had just gotten the D7500 in - still in its plastic wrapping. I got very tempted..., having not been able to bring my own camera with me..., but resisted - party due to the let down it would be in transitioning from Capture NX2, and also torn between that body and D500. To begin with they did not want to take it out of the wrap, but when I had problem handling it within, they guy at the counter gave in. They also had a D500 and the comparison was between them and purely physical - so no picture taking or playing with menus or comparing images on screen.

Observations: D7500 ergonomics is improved in that shutter button has moved to where the finger tip is, not the middle of the outer finger segment as my D7100. There little space between grip and lens - not sure if it is less than D7100 though. I wish I had brought my gloves to check it out. The body felt neat with with its low weight, and somehow smaller than my D7100 (but I use my D7100 with an L-bracket permanently mounted). Plastic in rear part of body is no issue (with one possible reservation to follow), it feels quite sturdy and I did not really think about what the material was. If anything it will be an advantage when it is cold. I did not even think about the changed strap lug design.  I am not sure if there is a  change in weight distribution that affects the balance - I only handled it with a 20mm f/1.8 mounted, and most of the time there was no battery in the chamber - should be investigated further by others. When it comes to it one really does not have the full impression of balance before the L-bracket is mounted, which I think improved balance on my D7100.

The viewfinder is noticeably better on the D500. It is larger and perhaps brighter than the D7500. It felt easier finding the right manual focus with the 20mm (which has pretty smooth manual focus by the way). The AEL lock button has an OK position as an AF-On button. However the focus selector seemed quite low to be able to quickly move the focus point with eye to the viewfinder. (This was not checked with camera "alive") The stick on the D500 is very well located. Thinking back to my Iditarod photography, I think the sports shooter will will be better off with a D500.

The viewfinder eyepiece is located very close to the edge of the screen. I wonder if there will be a conflict with my adapted DK-17M with round eyecup. Of course DK-17M mounts directly to the D500 and more securely without need for the modified plastic adapter. The hinge for the screen on the D7500 is mounted lower, and looks flimsier. I am not sure if this is just appearance. There was no slack/wiggling to be noticed. It seemed to be able to be pulled out further - could be an advantage for astrophotography when pointing the lens vertically. The frameless design looks somewhat more "modern" but less robust.

Both seem to be very nice cameras and with acceptable ergonomics, but physically I think the D500 is clearly distanced from the D7500 even when not considering Nikon's "takes". The taller grip on the D500 does not compromise space for the little finger that is not completely comfortable on the D7000 series grip, nor under the grip like on the 5000 series bodies. The light weight of the D7500 is very attractive though when one are not into big heavy lenses...
Øivind Tøien

Valerie S.

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #133 on: June 08, 2017, 09:27:52 »
I think the new AF module in the D5/D500 might be beyond a good percentage of the people that have bought the D500. The Dynamic AF modes seem to be giving some people a lot of grief if they aren't used to trying to keep the primary AF point on the target with using Dynamic. The D7500 has an older system which is more forgiving in this aspect and is probably a better fit for the "average enthusiast". I'm old school and used to trying to keep the selected AF point on target, and not comfortable with one of the outer points running away with the focus selection. I have two D5s, a D500 and haven't upgraded my D500 (I use two D5 for work, the D500 being a backup in case of failure) to a D4s because I prefer the new AF module behaviour. Judging from the very, very limited of number of complaints on FM and DPR, it seems like many want an easier AF camera rather than a more precise system which requires a dedication in advancement of technique for some.
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Had the D7500 been released at the same time as the D500, I think it would've been the more logical progression for many D7xxx users. The price point, the reluctance of enthusiast consumers to move onto XQD cards, the same sensor on both cameras, etc...

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: D7500 - Nikon gives and Nikon takes
« Reply #134 on: June 08, 2017, 14:04:45 »
I don't think the Multi-CAM 3500 is easier to use (I spent countless hours fine tuning cameras using that module to get them to focus fast primes properly, whereas the D5 has been a breeze with most lenses thanks to its auto AF fine tune) but it seems to be that cameras employing Multi-CAM 3500 have programming that has been helpful to some users and that has been changed in the new module. The dynamic area mode on Multi-CAM 3500 cameras seems to switch to and hold onto a closer subject if presented one momentarily, but the system doesn't switch as easily to a subject that is further away, so it has some preference for closer subjects. This can help when the subject is close to a complex detailed background but it makes it more difficult to focus on a subject which is not in the front but behind another subject (think of three runners approaching, if you want to focus on the one in the middle, this would be more difficult using the Multi-CAM 3500 dynamic). I've tried this many times and I could never figure out what the dynamic area modes were doing in the old cameras, until recently there have been these threads where the topic is discussed in depth.

With the Multi-CAM 20k cameras dynamic seems to do what the manual and sports AF technical guide says it does. The tendency to prefer a closer subject seems to have been removed from the programming of dynamic area AF and Nikon recommend the use of group area AF for situations where the subject is small in the frame, to avoid confusion with a complex detailed background, and they recommend the use of dynamic area AF for closer subjects which are large in the frame (in this case the background is less likely to be caught by the camera). This is discussed with quite many examples in the Sports AF technical guide and NPS tips pages. I think also auto area AF can be used to photograph distant subjects against complex backgrounds, in my experience both group area and auto area work reliably in such situations.

When I'm photographing a group of long distance runners, I may have a specific runner that I want to focus on and follow and I would prefer to be able to start shooting as early as possible, using a large aperture to isolate the subject at distance and then take a sequence of shots. For this the old dynamic area AF would not be of help because of its hesitation to focus on a subject behind another; my experience trying to do this with the D810 was frustrating. In the D5 there is no such problem and the camera obeys the photographer and focuses on the subject at and slightly around the primary point, without preference to a closer subject. If you do want closer subject priority the group area AF and auto area AF seem to handle those situations quite well.

Furthermore thanks to the cross-type points in the outermost columns of the Multi-CAM 20k sensor array, focusing on a face in a vertical shot where the subject is placed near the top is reliable with the D5 which it never was with Multi-CAM 3500 series sensors which have all the cross type points concentrated in the middle of the frame. A lot of the time the Multi-CAM 3500 cameras would focus on the hair instead of the face in such situations,  even with single point the area of sensitivity was too broad especially for backlit subjects (where the hair was bright and contrasty). The additional cross type points in the Multi-CAM 20k have been the biggest help for me as a lot of my photography involves vertical shots of people and the smaller area of coverage of each point and the cross-type nature of the sensors means I can really focus on the face. I think for users of f/2.8, f/4 and smaller aperture lenses the newer generations of Multi-CAM 3500 (Advanced and Advanced II) have been excellent already but for f/1.4 and f/2 shooting the Multi-CAM 20k really does help a lot.

For DX I think the positioning of the additional cross-type columns is not ideal as they're quite close to the edge of the frame and at least I wouldn't place the face so close to the edge. But there are few complaints about this so I guess users are happy with the broader coverage.

Anyway I think the D7500's AF system choice is as expected, as Nikon likely wanted the D7500 and D500 to be clearly different from each other. Likely Multi-CAM 20k would have made the camera bigger and I think they want to please people who want a compact, less expensive option with still quite high performance.

For those who have problems with dynamic area AF in Multi-CAM 20k cameras, some strategies may help. First, choose group area AF or auto area AF for subjects small in the frame if there is a complex background. If the subject is large in the frame and a complex detailed background not directly behind, dynamic area AF should work if used with single point technique. I typically choose the area size according to my precision in holding the primary point over the subject and the size of the desired target area in the subject (face of the subject in people photography). I think some practice may be necessary to get used to the differences - for me it wasn't difficult once I got the thought "make every effort to hold primary point on the subject's face" in my head.

On Nikon's side, they could provide some assistance in the way of offering a closest-subject priority mode as a custom function option (ON/OFF) in dynamic area AF (to mimic Multi-CAM 3500 dynamic area AF behavior),  add 9-point dynamic to the D500 as it is on the D5, and provide better documentation of AF right in the manual with some other examples outside of sports photography (it seems most of the complaints come from bird in flight photographers, so some advice for those photographers on settings to use would probably help).