Author Topic: Where is Nikon heading?  (Read 57630 times)

Ilkka Nissilä

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1712
  • You ARE NikonGear
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2017, 00:39:52 »
I was referring to consumers who use smartphones and compact cameras. For professional applications it is a different matter and the additional cost of cell phone connection is not as important as speed at least in news broadcast applications. However, (still) photography is more meditative in nature and strong images typically require careful editing (at the very least, selection) to be effective. If the images are edited before transferring, this is best done using a computer, not in camera. I don't see the difference in time that important; choosing the wrong image in haste can greatly reduce its effectiveness in conveying the message. At least I have lost the best image of a series in some situation as the user interface and screen size of the camera are not ideal for editing and I mistakenly deleted the wrong image. I think it is much better not to try editing in camera and leave that for the computer. However, if the photographer has to submit all the images then I suppose real time transfer might be valuable (if the staff do the editing). I personally think sending all images is just silly but I know that is what some are expected to do. I can't imagine any task more tedious than looking through some photographer's images in real time without any prior selection of what is important.


Jan Anne

  • Noob
  • Global Moderator
  • **
  • Posts: 2045
  • Holland
    • Me on Flickr
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #91 on: February 14, 2017, 00:53:35 »
Canon still has their "Direct Print" button, maybe it's time for an "Upload to FB" or "Upload to Snapchat" button :)

Millennials want to take a selfie or scenic shot of where they are, select a cool filter and upload the image to the social medium where their friends hang out.

They live in the now and want to share the now.

A SIM card isn't necessary, most smartphones have a MiFi function so can share their internet connection over wifi. Cameras do need a selfie touch screen, an assortment of open and closed social media apps which automagically take care of the resizing and uploading.
Cheers,
Jan Anne

Anthony

  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 1619
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2017, 01:08:30 »
It is hard for Nikon to compete in a  market where instant uploading is key.

Instant uploading is for journalism or for people who want to use photographs as a form of social communication.  The latter, in particular, have little interest in quality, and smartphones work well for them.  Nikon cannot compete in that space.
Anthony Macaulay

John Koerner

  • Guest
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2017, 01:29:03 »
Really, what Nikon should be doing is converting ALL of their low-end, BS "consumer cameras" into high-end cell phones, with Nikon-quality mini-lenses.

The NikonPhone series sounds like a winner to me ;D (You heard it here first, folks 8))

bjornthun

  • Guest
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2017, 02:00:20 »
Canon still has their "Direct Print" button, maybe it's time for an "Upload to FB" or "Upload to Snapchat" button :)

Millennials want to take a selfie or scenic shot of where they are, select a cool filter and upload the image to the social medium where their friends hang out.

They live in the now and want to share the now.

A SIM card isn't necessary, most smartphones have a MiFi function so can share their internet connection over wifi. Cameras do need a selfie touch screen, an assortment of open and closed social media apps which automagically take care of the resizing and uploading.

Too complicated! As Sten said, at the push of one button. Shared WiFi is several buttons. And yes, the camera would need to run Android in a sandbox. Sony already does this, except for the SIM card.

Check out the Apps you can run on your Sony A7RII.

Fons Baerken

  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 11145
    • https://www.flickr.com/photos/fonsbaerken/
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2017, 08:42:29 »
This may be just the tip of the iceberg!

MFloyd

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1801
  • My quest for the "perfect" speed blur
    • Adobe Portfolio
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2017, 11:45:55 »
It is hard for Nikon to compete in a  market where instant uploading is key.

Instant uploading is for journalism or for people who want to use photographs as a form of social communication.  The latter, in particular, have little interest in quality, and smartphones work well for them.  Nikon cannot compete in that space.

Nikon pro cameras have the adequate communication accessories at their disposal such as the WT-6; these are not cheap, nor easy to implement, but they guarantee reliable communication.  Claiming that photo journalism does not need quality, and can work it out with a smartphone, is a little bit shortsighted, if not exaggerated, no?

My wish is that WT-x like devices are directly integrated into the professional bodies and can rely on existing robust communication infrastructures e.g. GSM and therefore the need to integrate - inter alia - SIM card slot devices. May be you should have a look at the workflow of big agencies, where quasi instantaneous communication / transmission is of the essence.

As Illka mentioned, no everybody needs this.  A landscape / nature photographer can probably do it whitout .

A last word: photography is predominantly social communication.  What else should it be ?
Γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Ilkka Nissilä

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1712
  • You ARE NikonGear
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2017, 12:35:33 »
Nikon pro cameras have the adequate communication accessories at their disposal such as the WT-6; these are not cheap, nor easy to implement, but they guarantee reliable communication.

Well, there are four reviews at B&H Photo-Video website, all giving 1 star for the WT-6, and claiming that they encountered problems. On Amazon it looks a bit better and a few users have gotten it to work but again there are reports of not getting it to work and the connection being cut off. To be honest with this kind of reviews, I would hesitate to buy this accessory. It is also not clear whether it works with the D810 and UT-1 like WT-5 does.

From what I've seen, studio photographers generally use a cable for displaying the images on a larger screen even if they have wireless available in the camera. If wireless worked well, I am sure they would use it.

Quote
Claiming that photo journalism does not need quality, and can work it out with a smartphone, is a little bit shortsighted, if not exaggerated, no?

"The latter" refers to the second part of the sentence i.e. social use, not photojournalists.  :) That said, I guess some PJs also use cell phone cameras nowadays for some situations where they want to really blend in.

Quote
My wish is that WT-x like devices are directly integrated into the professional bodies and can rely on existing robust communication infrastructures e.g. GSM and therefore the need to integrate - inter alia - SIM card slot devices. May be you should have a look at the workflow of big agencies, where quasi instantaneous communication / transmission is of the essence.

From what I've understood, most of the hardware support for wireless communication is built into the D4(s)/D5, and the WT-5/6 unit  is needed to take the signal and antenna out of the metal chassis to be able to get enough range (100m+) for the communication e.g. in a remote camera use situation at sports arenas etc. The WT-7 is much bigger than the WT-6 because the D500 has less of the needed electronics built in. The WT-7 seems a bit of a hack job given that it requires cables to communicate with the camera and has no tripod socket. Nikon should think about compatibility of these accessories across cameras; the WT-6 for example should plug onto any of their professional cameras directly.

However, it does not support GSM.  I guess since Sony does make cell phones as well, they have the expertise to implement this whereas Nikon may not find it in house. Some kind of collaboration would be a good option if Nikon can't recruit the right people. Perhaps Nikon doesn't see this as important enough to recruit the best people to do it.

Quote
A last word: photography is predominantly social communication.  What else should it be ?

There is slow communication and fast communication similar to slow food and fast food.   ::)

I think we need better quality and better thought out images, and preferably fewer images, not more. The world is already enamored with fast and easy, and this takes a big toll on quality.

However, the majority may not see it this way. Better software support is needed for those cameras which support built in wireless. I don't think the level of software support Nikon provides for wireless communication on smartphones is even  10% of what would be regarded as "acceptable". This must be hitting Nikon's reputation hard and their sales as well. For professional users, an arcane interface to wireless communication is perhaps more acceptable as they set it up once and then it is used. But it seems from the reviews of the WT-6 that not everyone makes the grade.

MFloyd

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1801
  • My quest for the "perfect" speed blur
    • Adobe Portfolio
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2017, 13:00:37 »
Illka, thank you for the elaborate answer.  I agree with most of it.  Two remarks: (1) I mentioned first "WT-6" and later "WT-x": I should have better used the latter one, as I was referring to the more generic signification; BTW I have none of these devices. (2) "the need for an external appendix because of the metal body": hmm, Canon was able to integrate its GPS device into its latest pro-body; cars are generally "all metal" and most of these have no visible communication devices aka antennas anymore.
Γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Ilkka Nissilä

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1712
  • You ARE NikonGear
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2017, 13:09:51 »
Too complicated! As Sten said, at the push of one button. Shared WiFi is several buttons. And yes, the camera would need to run Android in a sandbox. Sony already does this, except for the SIM card.

Check out the Apps you can run on your Sony A7RII.

I understand Sony can do this because they have an Android smartphone business and the people and expertise is found in house. But for Nikon they would really need to hire some people from the outside to be able to do this quickly. Also I imagine they could run into patents and licensing etc.

Personally I would appreciate easy transfer of images on my iPhone, with one button, as you said. I'm familiar with my phone so uploading images from its memory online or e-mail would be easier than using a different user interface and apps on the camera. I use WhatsApp, iMessage and e-mail depending on whom I am communicating with, and I doubt that Nikon would be able to access the iMessage system if they put GSM support in their cameras. They would probably have their own social media site for photos and it is just not necessary or helpful since users of other brands' cameras would not use the same sites. Thus one more player would just complicate matters. I want to use the smartphone and tablet as hubs for social use of images and text.

I think if smartphone manufacturers helped a bit by either implementing dual channel wifi support (one between camera and phone, the other between phone and internet access) or even just allowed GSM to connect to internet while wifi is used for the camera, which currently does not seem to be happening (use wifi for anything, no internet access is available). This is why Nikon implemented a bluetooth / wifi hybrid system which is giving them a lot of flack. But I think the problems can be solved it's just that they should not have released immature technology and software to the market.

Frank Fremerey

  • engineering art
  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 12613
  • Bonn, Germany
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2017, 13:20:14 »
Really, what Nikon should be doing is converting ALL of their low-end, BS "consumer cameras" into high-end cell phones, with Nikon-quality mini-lenses.

The NikonPhone series sounds like a winner to me ;D (You heard it here first, folks 8))


I said that ten years ago on the old site. Noone listened. The could be the No camera-phone-camera-maker today.
You are out there. You and your camera. You can shoot or not shoot as you please. Discover the world, Your world. Show it to us. Or we might never see it.

Me: https://youpic.com/photographer/frankfremerey/

bjornthun

  • Guest
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2017, 13:34:57 »
Nikon needs its own software department with people, that actually knows how to make good software. This has been discussed to death already. They need this software know how, before they can even begin to do GSM/SIM/4G/5G/WiFi/BT. They do neither WiFi nor BT well today, and they need more software know how.

Again cameras with SIM cards and 4G is the quickest way to send photos to an editor, not going via a smartphone. Sending photos to an editor from a camera via 4G should be like selecting them and push send, just like you would push "Print". The LCD on the camera should of course be a retina grade OLED super high res thing. All of this should be there in expen$ive pro cameras like Nikon D5/Canon 1DX.

Ilkka Nissilä

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1712
  • You ARE NikonGear
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2017, 13:51:02 »
Physics hasn't changed, an external antenna outside of the metal chassis gives a better connection and avoids interference with the other functions of the camera.

The 5D Mark IV built in wifi's range is  about 15 meters as far as I've been able to find the information (I can try to verify this). Their accessory wifi device (WFT-E7) increases this range by a factor of 10 and speed up to 150Mbps. So the external device does provide additional range and possibly is faster (?).

The integrated antennas appear to be located right under the plastic surface of the camera:

http://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-5d-mark-iv/connectivity/

and probably are indeed not inside the metal housing (it would create a Faraday cage blocking transmission of radio signals, and possibly the wifi signal, if strong, could create interference with the internal functions of the camera as well). I am sure this would be possible for Nikon also to do in the D810's successor as they have done in some of their cameras (D7200, D750, D500). However, for one reason or another, Canon didn't implement built in wifi in their 1D X II or 5Ds.

Anyway, the WT-6 is a small perturbation just outside of the camera and should not get too much in the way of normal use of the camera. It's much smaller than Canon's external module.  Here is a pic of the Canon external WiFi module mounted on the 5D III:

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/product/accessories/wft_e7_wireless_file_transmitter.do

Seems similar to the WT-7 that Nikon offers for the D500.

Ilkka Nissilä

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1712
  • You ARE NikonGear
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2017, 14:01:11 »
Nikon needs its own software department with people, that actually knows how to make good software.

I completely agree but it seems they are not doing anything about it. Nikon software has always been with occasional glitches but today it is a total disaster.

I think if Nikon added Android based OS to run apps and connectivity they would be totally out of their league in software development and we could expect the cameras not to be reliable any more. I have a Sony Android-based TV and it is extremely sluggish in response to the remote controls, and hangs quite often, sometimes needs a reboot (basically I can never guess what will happen when I press a button, and how long the response will take). What is good about Nikon's current firmware is that they have very rare glitches and high reliability of operation. They know how to write firmware for their cameras but it if it is all to be based on around Android, good bye any hope of a reliable working camera. We have to be realistic about what to expect from Nikon.

Akira

  • Homo jezoensis
  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 12823
  • Tokyo, Japan
Re: Where is Nikon heading?
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2017, 14:17:47 »
Nikon did make an Android based compact camera, but apparently no one cared.

As for the Wifi function, it is not likely that the flagship models employ the powerful wireless system integrated in them.  As Nikon's flagship models are traditionally used in Japanese Self-Defence Forces, the strong electro-magnetic shielding is paramount: they have to function flawlessly even in the severest attacks of electro-magnetic field in the aegis ship, for example.  The strong shielding should also be of great importance when these cameras are used in the Space Shuttles or the ISS.

I would have to agree with the disastrous software.  The wifi enabled pre-SnapBridge cameras are totally orphaned.  Airnef works fairly good, but the genuine WirelessMobileUtility for the smartphones are almost useless.
"The eye is blind if the mind is absent." - Confucius

"Limitation is inspiration." - Akira