Author Topic: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)  (Read 8449 times)

atpaula

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Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« on: November 15, 2016, 20:10:56 »
AF-S 105mm f/1.4E , 105mm f/1.8 Ais and 105mm f/2.5 Ais.
All pics wide open, with no pp.

First pics with a D4s/tripod




and a Noct at a closer distance:



D4s handheld:



and a Noct at a closer distance and D5:



D5 handheld:





AF-S 105mm f/1.4E  x 58mm f/1.2 Noct at a closer distance, handheld D5:


Aguinaldo
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2016, 20:20:17 »
The tendency towards a "swirly" bokeh is quit visible for the 105/1.4E. However, not all subjects and scenes will show it this clearly.

The increase in background softness is largely dictated by the size of the blur circles, themselves in a direct relationship to the aperture size. No surprises there. However, I prefer myself the AI version of the 105/2.5 because of the curved aperture blades. The straight edges of the AIS blades can cause a more nervous character to the background, but of course this is not apparent with the lens wide open :D

Tristin

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2016, 01:20:24 »
The 105/1.8 is certainly the weakest here.  It's bokeh really drops in quality as the distance to the background decreases.  Very evident in the first set, but fine in the others.  Has been my observation as well.
-Tristin

atpaula

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2016, 12:15:02 »
Thanks Bjorn and Tristin.
I wish I could see more of these comparisons here.
BTW, I've just updated my website.
Please take a look t www.aguinaldodepaula.com
Thank you.
Aguinaldo
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Akira

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2016, 12:55:23 »
Congrats on the renewal of your website!  It's nice to be able to browse through all your stunning images whenever I like.
"The eye is blind if the mind is absent." - Confucius

"Limitation is inspiration." - Akira

atpaula

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2016, 14:12:22 »
Congrats on the renewal of your website!  It's nice to be able to browse through all your stunning images whenever I like.

My pleasure Akira!!!
Send my regards to all japanese people, whom I miss a lot.
I can't wait to return to your country.
Aguinaldo
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stenrasmussen

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2016, 14:19:01 »
Thanks for this informative posting!
Interesting to see how the 2.5 renders the bright construction in the background with less outlining than the 1.8.
It would be interesting to see how the 1.8 behaves when stopped down.
...yes, the 1.4G is king of OOF meltdown...

Airy

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2016, 16:00:35 »
Just had a check - the fellow Xenotars (105/2.5, 105/2.8) are very difficult to tell apart on 3-D subjects, also regarding bokeh. It looks like the rear blur increases faster with the 2.8, owing to more pronounced spherical aberration when leaving the focus plave. The only noticeable effect (whe pixel peeping shots made with the Df) is that the green fringes produced by the 1.8 are more "concentrated", more narrow, with higher green colour saturation. This could mean more nervous bokeh.

Here is an example from which I drew the above conclusion. First the whole scene; the 1.8 shot (on the left) is slightly darker, by maybe 0.2 EV. Picture taken at f/2.8. Distance : about 2.2m. All illustrations are X/Y screenshots with X = left shot=  105/1.8; 100% crops except the general view.

Lower center: you'll see the green fringe difference on one cutlery element. Also, the letters on the bottle (already behind focus plane) have a more saturated black color on the left, while of course having fuzzy edges.
Right: the big letters on the milk bottle are slightly less fuzzy on the left pic.
Left: no significant difference can be seen on the wooden hedgehog. Near the top, there are two pale horizontal stripes on the left, merging to one on the right, so there is a tendency towards softer bokeh with the 105/2.5, but once again, I do not expect the differences (neither in bokeh, nor in sharpness) to play a significant role.

This is maybe why the Naerfoto website rates the 105/2.5 higher: similar results with smaller size and weight make the 105/2.5 more usable. The full aperture of the 105/1.8 (or even f/2.0) are not going to be useful very often due to high aberrations and noticeable bokeh outline - unlike for instance the full aperture of the Zeiss 135/2. One use case, also mentioned by Tristin, is night shots, where the full aperture is more usable than expected (low astigmatism, low bleeding), and the drawbacks (LoCA, low contrast, bokeh) a lesser issue.
Airy Magnien

Airy

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2016, 09:18:40 »
I just had another run with now three oldtimers : 105/2.5 AI, AIS, and 105/1.8

No surprize ; they are as difficult as ever to tell apart. The field curvature of the f/2.5s is quite apparent at a distance of 2m (focus plane bent by maybe 4 cm at the outer edges), but whether that's relevant depends on your subjects.

Coming back to the bokeh, I am pleased, and not in the least surprized, to confirm that Björn is right - the AI is better at 2.8 (nearly circular defocused highlights) than both AIS versions (delivering heptagons and enneagons) ; there may be a slight advantage at f/4; beyond, the advantage brought by the rounded blades is negligible. Maybe I'll revise this opinion when shooting shiny motorcycles under blazing sunlight - wrong season.

The 1.8 bokeh is altered by mechanical vignetting at 1.8 and 2.0, apertures that are of limited use (also because of lower contrast and purple fringing).

Again, it seems like the 1.8 has slightly higher contrast, visible on textured subjects (e.g. fabric). Bottom line, if you have one of these lenses, and assuming it is in a fair condition, shoot and be happy. They are so close that owning more than one is essentially a collector's fad.

Evidence to follow.

P.S. sorry I cannot type Alt0224 on that laptop keyboard, so Björn gets the Swedish version of his first name.
Airy Magnien

Tristin

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2016, 17:37:37 »
They are so close that owning more than one is essentially a collector's fad.

I have disagree here strongly.  The field curvature of the f/2.5 limits it's use as a landscape lense heavily and it's poor handling of strong light sources in front of the lens (compared to the f/1.8 ) makes it a far worse lens for many uses.  I would not trust the f/2.5 to shoot live music, for example, as washed out images from stage lights would be the course for the night.

Btw, I copy/paste Bjørn's name as I am on mobile.  Easy  :)
-Tristin

Airy

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2016, 18:22:50 »
I just took the 1.8 for a walk after sunset, to check exactly this.

   Concerning landscapes, I do not usually shoot them wide open, but rather between f/4 and f/8. The sharpness drop due to field curvature did not spring to the eye, but I'll  check again.
Airy Magnien

Tristin

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2016, 18:28:42 »
I tend to shoot landscapes with the 105 at f/11, the field curvature in the corners of the f/2.5 is surprisingly strong.  Distant landscapes are fine, but closer elements in the corners sill suffer noticably.
-Tristin

Airy

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2016, 18:38:17 »
This was not noticeable when I shot brickwalls at a short distance, although the field curvature is absolutely there, and well visible at f/2.5. Maybe your copy had an issue ? something like axial misplacement of some element (I suspect that was also the issue I encountered with a 50/1.8 AI I quickly returned). Xenotar designs are known to be especially sensitive to manufacturing tolerances.
Airy Magnien

Airy

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2016, 19:48:59 »
Foreground lights : OK, no reason to complain. (105/1.8 at f/4)
Airy Magnien

Airy

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Re: Comparing the bokeh of 3 Nikkor 105mm (and a 58mm Noct)
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2016, 20:32:22 »
Here the announced evidence concerning bokeh. Shooting distance is about 1.5m. Camera : D800.
First pic : general scene.
Second pic : 2.5 AI and 2.5 AIS at f/4. This is the most I could get in terms of bokeh difference
Third pic : 2.5 AI and 1.8 AIS at f/2.8 ; ditto.
Fourth : same lenses at f/4. The difference becomes narrower, but the 1.8 retains sharper OOF highlight edges, also observed in an earlier post.
Fifth : same lenses ; the in-focus zone at f/2.8. The 1.8 is more contrasty.
Sixth : ditto at f/4; the f/1.8 retains a minimal advantage.
Airy Magnien