Author Topic: Cameras: Coming Full Circle  (Read 43014 times)

bjornthun

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2016, 14:37:52 »
Michael, did you wait for the A7RII to offer uncompressed 14bit RAW after the firmware update?
Some say it doesn't matter, but I for one think that 14 bit RAW offers better colours and gradations.

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2016, 14:52:42 »
I have to ask, is there no one else who finds the Haselblad X1D interesting? By all means, read Ming Thein’s articles on this new camera. Here is one of them:

https://blog.mingthein.com/2016/07/06/hasselblad-x1d-early-impressions-with-samples/#more-13288

   And here is an excerpt about the sensor: “Sensor image quality: at least identical to, if not slightly better than, the H5/6 – I think it’s because of accuracy of focus more than anything or newer lens designs. High ISOs are perhaps half a stop cleaner, and there’s now both auto ISO, 12k and 25k settings. I have requested the ability to adjust the auto-parameters. Color, dynamic range, and tonal response are identical to the H5/6 – which in my opinion, is the best you can get, period. Think 14-15 stops and almost zero profiling required, with a very natural highlight rolloff. See for yourself, in any case.”

I am and have been waiting for the Nikon D820 (or whatever number) IMO too long and I’m moving on. Should they come out with a larger sensor, 50 Mpx or larger, I no-doubt will order one the first day they are offered. Why try and talk me out of it? I am not sticking my head in the sand as far as new cameras, but taking action to keep my progress alive and moving. I believe I have given all my reasons why I like the X1D, including that I want a small kit to travel with, now that I am retired. Perhaps I will show up at a gathering near you and we can meet? Or you might like to come here and see the beauty of Michigan?
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2016, 15:00:02 »
I don't think that's how it works. Nikon doesn't "extract more quality" out of an off the shelf component that Sony makes. The different characteristics are a result of different design of the electronics and optics of the sensor. If they used the same component they'd get essentially the same data. Additionally, the 42MP sensor may be a component Sony developed internally for use in their own cameras. Nikon probably isn't interested in making their top of the line camera out of old parts bin components of one of their competitors. What they're looking for is using a sensor that gives them a competitive edge and that involves incorporating their own expertise in the design.

bjornthun

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2016, 15:44:11 »
Image quality is not just a product of the sensor, the digital signal processing (Nikon Expeed or Sony Bionz) also plays a very important part.

Sony's camera division doesn't develop sensors. The sensor development whether for Sony or other companies is done by a separate unit/division. The 42mp sensor may be made in several iterations and versions, so there is no "old parts". E.g. Fuji claims their 50mp medium format sensor is different from the one Hasselblad uses.


simsurace

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2016, 15:47:46 »
I think he's talking about the Sony 50MP sensor with 33mm x 44mm dimensions that is used by several medium format cameras.
Thanks, that might be. Nevertheless, I sometimes sense a little bit of confusion in the room about what a larger sensor is. This term seems to be used for both resolution and physical size, but it would IMHO best be left to describe a larger physical size.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2016, 15:51:08 »
I was talking about the Sony 50 Mpx sensor that is in the larger Hasselblads, whose quality (and color) has been fully documented for ages. What is this glass half-empty rather than half-full syndrome?


If Nikon brought out the X1D, we would be all over it, and it might be a little less expensive, but probably not that much.

I have yet to hear from anyone on this thread who is getting the X1D. Anyone else in that boat?
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com, Daily Blog at https://www.facebook.com/MichaelErlewine. main site: SpiritGrooves.net, https://www.youtube.com/user/merlewine, Founder: MacroStop.com, All-Music Guide, All-Movie Guide, Classic Posters.com, Matrix Software, DharmaGrooves.com

Almass

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2016, 16:32:44 »
I played with the new Hassy and did not like the ergonomics. Image quality is very much dependent on which software you use and your processing skills.......this applies for all digital cameras.
I still have an Alpa PhaseOne gathering dust as using it ends up not using it to answer every Dick Tom and Harry what the hell it is!

As ultimate quality is your game. Why don't you use Sinar with PhaseOne Digi back or a PhaseOne FX? Surely you must have looked at these....too expensive?.....Image quality?.......What gives?

Probably you also know this site: http://www.largesense.com/

.......Only 100k  8)







Michael Erlewine

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2016, 17:07:28 »
As mentioned, I have enough bellows and technical cameras, which I can use with the Nikon D810.

Not interested in a giant, expensive, heavy technical camera. The Rollei X-Act 2 that I have is 14 lbs. and more than heavy enough.

I like the compactness, light-weight, and small profile of the X1D. I am content with the 50 Mpx Sony sensor in the Hasselblads, since I am not doing tilt/shift, but rather portraits and smallish landscapes.
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Les Olson

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2016, 18:18:00 »
I have to ask, is there no one else who finds the Haselblad X1D interesting? By all means, read Ming Thein’s articles on this new camera.

Ming Thein is paid by Hasselblad.  His remarks are worth as much as any other advertisement. 

As to your question, I do not find the X1D interesting for three reasons. 

The first is the cost: as sensors get bigger, performance increases linearly with the sensor diagonal (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Ideal%204/3,Ideal%20CX,Ideal%20DX,Ideal%20FX), but the cost is proportional to the square of the sensor diagonal.  Small improvements in sensor performance cost a lot of dollars/euros.  It is not just that I don't want to spend that much on a camera, it is that spending those dollars on a slightly bigger sensor is a poor choice: a fraction of the cost of the X1D and a couple of lenses would buy much larger improvements spent elsewhere - eg on a better tripod and head. 

The second issue is the lack of lenses.  That is not just a start-up issue: there will never be a long focal length lens or a fast portrait lens, because of the choice to use leaf shutters and have fast shutter speeds.  The reason to have leaf shutters is, of course, to synchronise with flash at any shutter speed, and the reason to do that is so you can use flash to stop very fast action without turning off the lights.  I can see that might be useful, once or twice, although the number and low price of the Schneider-Kreuznach leaf shutter lenses for Mamiya 645 on the second-hand market suggest that there may be less market for pictures of women being splashed with milk than a lot of folk hoped.  Whatever, that makes the X1D a studio camera. 

That leads to the third issue: the X1D is a fundamentally irrational concept.  It is a studio camera, so why have all the things that make a studio camera functional been ditched to make it small and light? 


Michael Erlewine

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2016, 18:23:06 »
Ming Thein is paid by Hasselblad.  His remarks are worth as much as any other advertisement. 

Ming Thein has only recently become a representative for Hasselblad. I have followed his Hasselblad work way before that, so I consider your comment not balanced.
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bjornthun

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2016, 18:42:12 »
For the Hasselblad H system (DSLR) there is a 100mm f/2.2 leaf shutter lens, so quite fast leaf shutter lenses are aqtually possible.

The Hasselblad mirrorless X1D and lenses are quite lightweight, so there is no reason to limit it to studio use, rather it should be very well suited for landscape photography. It is rather the PhaseOne/Mamiya and Hasselblad DSLRs that may be more limited in their use, due to weight issues. If a Hasselblad X1D were limited to studio use, then that would have applied also to Nikon pro DSLRs...

The Mamiya 7 system certainly was not limited to studio use, and could be compared to the Hasselblad X1D system in size and weight.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2016, 19:14:13 »
Whatever signal processing happens to the data in the digital domain (after A/D conversion) before the data is stored in the raw file can only make the data worse, it cannot add information, it can either maintain what information there is, or lose some of it. Thus the signal processor is not relevant to  the quality of the data, if they apply signal processing to the raw data, it is a stupid (and irresponsible) thing to do. It cannot create any more information than was digitized in the first place. Thus the raw data should be left alone and stored in the raw file and any processing done in post.  I'm aware that some manufacturers "cook" the data in some ways but this is to the detriment of the users' best interest.  The less cooking, the better the file will be. I'm not saying that removal of hot pixels and hardware specific structural noise should not be done, to ease the raw conversion, but that's it.

Jacques Pochoy

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2016, 19:36:49 »
I, for one, am looking forward to your experience with the X1D. I used to have a Bronica 6x6 system at one time and longed for a RB 6x7... I didn't have thousand of lenses then and it worked nicely for me :o
I wouldn't be against a light semi-medium format camera that would allow me to travel easily... :D
“A photograph is a moral decision taken in one eighth of a second. ” ― Salman Rushdie, The Ground Beneath Her Feet.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2016, 19:37:38 »
The main application for leaf shutters is to allow outdoor portraiture with fill flash using less flash energy to light the subjects while in bright sunlight. 1/2000s flash synchronization means that the photographer needs three stops less flash energy than they would with a camera that can be used only at a top speed of 1/250s or 1/200s.  This is a massive benefit. It basically mean the lights will weigh a fraction of what would be needed for similar results using cameras that support only slow sync speeds.

The X1D is not a studio camera. If you look at Hasselblad's example images

http://www.hasselblad.com/inspiration/gallery/x1d-gallery/

Every single one of them is an example of location portraiture, not studio. Of course you can use it in the studio but that's not its primary forte.

Also there is no need for high dynamic range in a studio camera, as the lighting contrast range is 100% controlled by the photographer.

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2016, 19:53:43 »
The main application for leaf shutters is to allow outdoor portraiture with fill flash using less flash energy to light the subjects while in bright sunlight. 1/2000s flash synchronization means that the photographer needs three stops less flash energy than they would with a camera that can be used only at a top speed of 1/250s or 1/200s.  This is a massive benefit. It basically mean the lights will weigh a fraction of what would be needed for similar results using cameras that support only slow sync speeds.

The X1D is not a studio camera. If you look at Hasselblad's example images

http://www.hasselblad.com/inspiration/gallery/x1d-gallery/

Every single one of them is an example of location portraiture, not studio. Of course you can use it in the studio but that's not its primary forte.

Also there is no need for high dynamic range in a studio camera, as the lighting contrast range is 100% controlled by the photographer.


Your post speaks to me. From what I have gleaned from all that I could read about the X1D, unless there is something terribly wrong with the camera, it is just what I could use at this point. Aside from attempts to disparage Ming Thein by some posters, I have read him carefully and for a long time. I have seen him patiently answer questions hundreds and thousands of times. Since I know something about Nikon cameras and lenses that can be mounted on a Nikon, I have compared Ming Thein's advice with my own experience and find an almost direct correlation. His comments and experience with an an actual X1D has been more than just helpful in my deciding to order the X1D.

While I would do studio work in winter here in Michigan, most of the year I would use the X1D for outdoor shooting, on-location or indoor while traveling. I seldom use flash, but I am interested in what you say and want to learn more about using flash with the X1D. Where would I learn more or can you offer more info here?



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