Author Topic: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"  (Read 41163 times)

Frank Fremerey

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2016, 10:16:08 »
Andy, thank you so much for this wonderful and down to earth article.
I am in search of the 135/2.8 AIS now :)

I have had that lens for many years in the film days. Great for shooting portrait outdoors.

You are out there. You and your camera. You can shoot or not shoot as you please. Discover the world, Your world. Show it to us. Or we might never see it.

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Frank Fremerey

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2016, 10:18:14 »
The problem with modern optics
http://yannickkhong.com/blog/2016/2/23/the-problem-with-modern-optics

Thank you Andy. I bookmarked the site.

I do not yet understand how the diagram is created, but the message comes across.

Interesting that two of my favorite optics are the best in his opinion in the G-Range: 50/1.8G and 24/1.4G
You are out there. You and your camera. You can shoot or not shoot as you please. Discover the world, Your world. Show it to us. Or we might never see it.

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Andy

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2016, 10:23:15 »
That's correct, I haven't. Reading between the lines here I assume there is an issue..?
Yes, there is.
If somebody is surprised by no AF function in this combo.

Quite a few AFS 300mm/4D don't focus with the D750, while working perfectly with other bodies. The root cause seems to be with the DC2DC converter in the lens, while the symptom only surfaces with the D750.

My lens is currently with Nikon for a replacement of the converter.

rgds,
Andy

Andy

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2016, 10:34:37 »
Thank you Andy. I bookmarked the site.
I do not yet understand how the diagram is created, but the message comes across.

This might help: The lens intention diagram
http://yannickkhong.com/blog/2016/2/19/the-lens-intention-diagram

It is recommened - and I think as intended by Yannick - not to take every word of his blog entries as absolute and reproducible fact. He seems not to have this aspiration to be seen as "authorative source" but rather enjoys the easier side of life - i.e. by mixing in just personal opinion. Which from my perspective is a nice addition.

rgds, Andy

Erik Lund

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2016, 10:38:49 »
Very nice samples he comes up with,,, Thanks for the link!
Erik Lund

Airy

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2016, 11:08:58 »
Still very puzzling. The 50/1.4 AIS is said to bring the most 3D effect (out of the Nikon MF range; analysis found on a newsgroup, around 2008 maybe). To me, it is rather the 50/1.2, and I have a couple of shots that immediately spring to my mind.

Then, this effect is often brought into relationship with microcontrast and hence coatings. Zeiss lenses and T coating are consequently mentioned very often in that context. I do not clearly see the relationship between the 50/1.2 AI and recent Zeiss lenses with lots of elements inside (35/2 for instance)... not to mention the Voigtländers (58/1.4, 40/2) Yannick seems to like so much - me too by the way. Latter are relatively simple designs.
Airy Magnien

ArendV

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2016, 11:24:23 »
Interesting discussion, would be good to do a blind test amongst the strong believers.

In the first link I think the 3D effect is more caused by the quality of light rather than the lens used.
In the comparison of the Nikkor vs Zeiss 28mm on microcontrast, I think the Zeiss is focused behind the eyes (look at the top hair popping out).

I really like and use my old Nikkors but do not fully believe the claims on 3D (yet).
Arend

Erik Lund

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2016, 11:33:07 »
Yes for that shot the Zeiss must be out of focus, also my first thought
Erik Lund

Jakov Minić

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2016, 12:24:27 »
So the only way to confirm the 3D vs flat issue would be if someone has the mentioned lenses, tries them out, and shares with us the results.
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Airy

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2016, 12:43:59 »
Yep. Remindful of the "field curvature" discussion. Everybody has some idea of what it is, everybody has some ready-made explanations (incl. myself). A sure recipe for confusion.
1) can we characterize the phenomenon that is called "3D rendition"?
2) can we trace it down to some objective characteristics of the picture - not of the lens build? (example: sentences like "the nose looks flat" hints at lens behavior in front of the focus plane).
3) can we observe it - at screen resolution, really? At what apertures does it become most apparent? (to avoid wasting time)
4) can we test it in a repeatable way:
I happen to have some of the concerned lenses. I remember side by side tests of 35mm (PC Nikkor, Zeiss, Sigma) however not revealing anything extraordinary, except that at f/8 the PC lens was less sharp and yielded less saturated pics than the others, and the latter were really hard to tell apart except, precisely, front blur. But f/8 may not be the critical aperture.
My only trouble : very scarce time availability. If sb at least could help me by proposing a setup most likely to reveal evidence...
Airy Magnien

PedroS

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2016, 12:57:50 »
Very interesting article, but too much bias to be held as comparative or showing much more than what we would like to see.

Comparing the images that the author serves us is impossible. And I'm not talking about different perspectives; never Cleopatra's nose will turn flat whatever "art" lens you'll use, if you know what I mean...
I do like character in a lens. But that’s not to say that old ones, because they have less elements are better on this respect than the newer ones with more elements.
Question is; do you want to paint what you see? Or, you want to reproduce what you see?
These two questions are as apart as film is from digital.
If we have to have a human example, look at the vision system: the eye is like a very old lens, only one element, with no correction whatsoever… and the brain, is like the digital camera that we’ll never get, because the post-processing that happens there is impossible to reproduce. The image that the eye projects is incredible poor… inverted, distorted in both axis, full of color aberrations... but what we perceive as what it’s out there is not inverted, crisp, clear, white corrected, line corrected, and the list goes on
So as we can’t have such a camera body, we need some more sophisticated lenses to try to mimic reality.
Try to reproduce a face for medical biometrics (size, color, perspective…) and you know what I’m saying.

Michael Erlewine

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2016, 13:38:43 »
For me, it was never bare resolution or ”sharpness.” In fact, somewhere there must be all the articles I wrote way back then pointing out that IMO what is called sharpness very much depends not on sheer acutance alone or resolution, but on how the edges are corrected. It was the degradation of color from lack of APO correction that I was disturbed by. I felt that sharpness could not be considered without taking correction into account, etc.

Otherwise I would not have sold off my Zeiss Makro-Planar 50mm and 100mm, which were sharp enough, but for which the color was not corrected well enough and to my eyes they were too “contrasty.” I found lenses like the Voigtlander 125mm APO-Lanthar f.2.5 and the Leica 100mm APO Macro Emarit-R more to my taste. And I found the very sharp and very well-corrected Coastal Optics APO 60mm f/4 lens perfect as a copy lens, but lacking character IMO if used for other work. Perhaps a lens has to have enough flaws to have character, but that does not amount IMO to opening the door to uncorrected lenses and expecting to see something desirable just because they lack correction. LOL.

What I totally agree with is the suggestion to choose a lens for the kind of work you are doing. I have very well corrected lenses, some that are fast wide-open, but I also have a whole collection lenses that are full of distortion, but of a kind I find useful.

Examples would be the Trioplan 100mm, the Zeiss Biotar-style lenses, Meyer optics, lenses with swirly bokeh, and right on down the line. I think that Klaus Scmitt and I call this “lens painting.” I also have lenses like the CRT-Nikkor that are specially distorted in a way I find beautiful.

Then, I have many older lenses with a special draw or character, like the Noct Nikkor, 50 mm 1.2 Nikkor, El Nikkor 105mm APO, a ton of old 55mm Micro-Nikkors and on and on.

And I still have the old standby nikkors, 14-24mm, 24-70mm, and 70-mm.

So, there are many lenses, many styles of lenses, and many ways to use lenses.

I find it hard to fit into many of these kind of discussions, because I stack focus. And to do that, I have an actual need for fast, highly-corrected-wide-open lenses, again: for a specific purpose, to have great bokeh, but to also have razor-thin ultra-sharp focus, so that I can paint layers of focus against that bokeh background.

So, I found those articles interesting, at best, but not very much related to my work, except as I mentioned, choosing a lens for specific work.
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Frank Fremerey

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2016, 17:02:01 »
You are out there. You and your camera. You can shoot or not shoot as you please. Discover the world, Your world. Show it to us. Or we might never see it.

Me: https://youpic.com/photographer/frankfremerey/

Anthony

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2016, 18:04:47 »
I am not impressed by the methodology used to "prove" the points being made.  Therefore I discount the opinions of the blogger and await the opinions of a more careful researcher.
Anthony Macaulay

Jakov Minić

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Re: Yannick Khong: "The Problem with modern Optics"
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2016, 18:39:01 »
Andy, if you know the blogger, why not invite him to this thread so that we could all get answers first hand?
Free your mind and your ass will follow. - George Clinton
Before I jump like monkey give me banana. - Fela Kuti
Confidence is what you have before you understand the problem. - Woody Allen