Nikongear Scotland Meetup - May 2016 *** PAYMENT DETAILS NOW AVAILABLE ***

[Frank Fremerey]

In fact I met a lot of people who were born on the same day and I asked myself whether it has to do with my end of July birth date and it has in a statistically significant way

[simsurace]

I don't know about that - there are millions of Davids in the UK. Several of my friends are called David; there even is, or was, another photographer in Edinburgh called David Paterson, who started up in business there just after I went south (in 1983!) to see if I could make it in London.

I was talking about my name specifically. There are a lot of female Simone's in Switzerland and France, but the male Italian version is quite rare and unfamiliar.

[simato73]

I was talking about my name specifically. There are a lot of female Simone's in Switzerland and France, but the male Italian version is quite rare and unfamiliar.

Another Italian Simone agrees with the above.


Changing subject, some ideas for the time we'll spend there.

I know there are at least a few keen on spending active time outdoors, like Jan Anne, Simone and myself, and possibly others.
We'll be in a prime location for hiking, with several beautiful Munros waiting to be climbed (for those who don't know what Scottish Munros are, look it up on Google!).

If the weather agrees I will be spending a full day out hiking and photographing landscapes from high up. Anyone interested is welcome to join, if they are confident about their state of fitness and their equipment (I am referring to clothing, not photo gear).

In case you wish to hike please plan accordingly and come equipped.
The weather in Scotland is extremely variable, as you may already have gathered. Generally speaking you should be ready for very wet and very windy even if the outlook at the beginning of the day says otherwise. For those used to the Alps, I find the Highlands harder going, despite the much lower elevation. The trails, when existing, are generally in worse conditions and unmarked, much more akin to Norway than Central/Southern Europe. The terrain is very wet most of the time.
A few notes that will be obvious to anyone with some experience: full grain leather here works much better than fabric/Gore-Tex. Don't even think not having good hiking boots, jackets and wind/waterproof leg protection. Gloves are recommended. Sunglasses: YMMV - I only use them if there is lots of snow.
Clothes layering a must, only wear jeans if you intend to spoil the hike for yourself and your companions.

I am planning to do the Tarmachan Ridge Saturday morning before meeting the group; the other hike I would like to do is a grand tour taking in Beinn Ghlas, Ben Lawers, An Stuc, Meall Garbh and Meall Greigh and it will require two cars or a pick up by some friendly soul at the far end of the hike (the Lawers Hotel, where we could have celebratory drinks and even dinner!)

The hike can also be done in reverse but it requires more ascent - I would be interested to hear Dave's opinion, especially with photography in mind (direction of light relative to terrain features, etc)  - what works better? Also what should I expect in terms of lingering snow? I wouldn't have a problem with it but it could put off somebody.
The only bit I expect to be tricky is the scramble down An Stuc (up if you walk in reverse).

Any takers?

[Erik Lund]

I would love to join the hike! Great initiative Simone 

[David Paterson]

Simato wrote:
"the other hike I would like to do is a grand tour taking in Beinn Ghlas, Ben Lawers, An Stuc, Meall Garbh and Meall Greigh and it will require two cars or a pick up by some friendly soul at the far end of the hike (the Lawers Hotel, where we could have celebratory drinks and even dinner!)"

That's a large undertaking (>20km plus a lot of height gain and loss) with a very long descent at the end of an exhausting day. And it's a long way to Meall Greigh for what is an unspectacular summit. If I were you I'd leave the connecting ridge at Lairig Innein and drop down into the corry and pick up the marked track (Explorer 378 OS map is best) where the map shows "old shielings" , and a dam and ford. The track will give you a much easier descent and this route will save you around 4km. You hit the road at Tombreck, passing a couple of standing stones en route, a few hundred metres before the road.

Snow conditions in early May can vary from none to lots. My best guess is that you will find many large patches of spring snow, some of which will be unavoidable. So then there is the question of temperature - in mild non-freezing conditions, spring snow has the consistency of wet crystalline sugar and is heavy, cloying and a nuisance. In freezing conditions, this snow becomes as hard as concrete and can be extremely dangerous because a slip that becomes a slide can be very difficult to arrest. The have been numerous instances over the years of deaths and serious injuries in the Scottish mountains from just such a cause. I would say that ice-axes are essential and crampons desirable unless the hills are almost clear of snow.

I have two ice-axes and an ice-hammer (Hamish MacInnes's "Pterodactyls" - but I'm showing my age) and two sets of 12-point crampons (strap-ons) here somewhere; they can certainly be borrowed. I wish I could come with you but my climbing days are over.

[simsurace]

I'm in for a bit of hiking. I will have my hiking boots and clothing with me anyways.

How much elevation gain and loss is the "Grand Tour"?
I'm also fine with a shorter tour, I think the timing is crucial, i.e being in a nice place when the sun sets for instance.

Of course we have to check the local and momentary conditions wrt. snow etc. once we're there.

[simato73]

Thank you all those who have already expressed interest. If you are into these things I think it will be an excellent day out.

I'm in for a bit of hiking. I will have my hiking boots and clothing with me anyways.

How much elevation gain and loss is the "Grand Tour"?
I'm also fine with a shorter tour, I think the timing is crucial, i.e being in a nice place when the sun sets for instance.

Of course we have to check the local and momentary conditions wrt. snow etc. once we're there.

Simato wrote:
"the other hike I would like to do is a grand tour taking in Beinn Ghlas, Ben Lawers, An Stuc, Meall Garbh and Meall Greigh and it will require two cars or a pick up by some friendly soul at the far end of the hike (the Lawers Hotel, where we could have celebratory drinks and even dinner!)"

That's a large undertaking (>20km plus a lot of height gain and loss) with a very long descent at the end of an exhausting day. And it's a long way to Meall Greigh for what is an unspectacular summit. If I were you I'd leave the connecting ridge at Lairig Innein and drop down into the corry and pick up the marked track (Explorer 378 OS map is best) where the map shows "old shielings" , and a dam and ford. The track will give you a much easier descent and this route will save you around 4km. You hit the road at Tombreck, passing a couple of standing stones en route, a few hundred metres before the road.

Snow conditions in early May can vary from none to lots. My best guess is that you will find many large patches of spring snow, some of which will be unavoidable. So then there is the question of temperature - in mild non-freezing conditions, spring snow has the consistency of wet crystalline sugar and is heavy, cloying and a nuisance. In freezing conditions, this snow becomes as hard as concrete and can be extremely dangerous because a slip that becomes a slide can be very difficult to arrest. The have been numerous instances over the years of deaths and serious injuries in the Scottish mountains from just such a cause. I would say that ice-axes are essential and crampons desirable unless the hills are almost clear of snow.

I have two ice-axes and an ice-hammer (Hamish MacInnes's "Pterodactyls" - but I'm showing my age) and two sets of 12-point crampons (strap-ons) here somewhere; they can certainly be borrowed. I wish I could come with you but my climbing days are over.

I would love to join the hike! Great initiative Simone 

Including Meall Greigh the whole circuit W to E is I reckon nearly 1500m ascent. Doing it the other way around adds about 250m. Length is around 21km.

I am aware that Meall Greigh is a rather nondescript hill in itself; I was however hopeful that it could afford interesting views on the Ben Lawers group.
Given the position it may be that the view is best early in the morning, Dave what is your opinion?

Taking Meall Greigh out of the equation would save ~200m climb and some length (not sure it is as much as 4 km). And the descent (or ascent, depending on which way one goes) of Meall Greigh seems brutal, so if the view is not great I will not be too disappointed missing it out.

If there is snow, especially on An Stuc, I agree caution is imperative. I was not expecting having to use crampons and ice axe, but I do own them and like using them.
Unfortunately I don't have any surplus to lend.

Finally obviously one would prefer being on the hills at the golden hour, but I am not sure this will be possible. The sun rises very early and sets quite late at that time of the year.
It is a long walk and we would have to be up late, then have a long hard descent after an already tiring day. The only way I would perhaps consider it, and then again only if everything went well and energy was still high, is if we walked E-W, which means ending on the path down Beinn Ghlas, which is a good, clear path.

[simsurace]

Do you have a link to topographic maps of the area?

[BEZ]

I am up for a challenging hike but I don't own or have experience using "ice axe's" or "crampons". I expect I'd have to make a decision depending on how bad the ice may be at the time. I would not want to spoil the day for experienced extreme hikers.

In case conditions are favorable a detailed list of the minimum equipment and food I will need would be very helpful. I did read Simone's advise but would like a complete list to tick off if possible.   

Cheers

[Frank Fremerey]

When I was hiking Ireland earlier in life I used to walk 10 hours per day but I do not do it in a military or alpinistic way.

Time to stop and take photos has to be calculated. Many people on the trail means many stops at many different places or the group will be torn apart.

Snow conditions requiring snow axes to prevent sliding to death are certainly beyond my level of expertise.

[simsurace]

I'm neither versed at using ice equipment. My boots cannot take crampons (or so I'm told) because they are not stiff enough.
Crampon-ready boots that are sold around here are super-heavy and stiff (almost like like ski touring boots) and not the kind I would want to use to do super-long hikes and treks. They are used to cross glaciers and to climb ice falls.
But maybe there is another kind of crampons that I'm not aware of that can fit regular hiking boots.

Usually when hiking in early spring (which in the Alps can be as late as June high up) when there's still snow around, I come by fine without any special equipment because the snow is most of the times wet, and sliding is not a danger.* You're only slowed down. But conditions in Scotland might be different because of wind -- the snow might be of a different, compact kind or even icy.

*I should say that it depends on the altitude. What I'm saying holds for the types of hikes I do, which is mostly below 2500 meters ASL.

[simato73]

Do you have a link to topographic maps of the area?

The following links describe two halves of the hike. Walk highlands is a very good website but although there is mention in the forum of a full ridge traverse unfortunately there isn't a hike description for the whole thing.

http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/perthshire/ben-lawers.shtml

http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/perthshire/meall-garbh.shtml

To see a map click on "View/print online map"

[simato73]

I'm neither versed at using ice equipment. My boots cannot take crampons (or so I'm told) because they are not stiff enough.
Crampon-ready boots that are sold around here are super-heavy and stiff (almost like like ski touring boots) and not the kind I would want to use to do super-long hikes and treks. They are used to cross glaciers and to climb ice falls.
But maybe there is another kind of crampons that I'm not aware of that can fit regular hiking boots.

Usually when hiking in early spring (which in the Alps can be as late as June high up) when there's still snow around, I come by fine without any special equipment because the snow is most of the times wet, and sliding is not a danger.* You're only slowed down. But conditions in Scotland might be different because of wind -- the snow might be of a different, compact kind or even icy.

*I should say that it depends on the altitude. What I'm saying holds for the types of hikes I do, which is mostly below 2500 meters ASL.

A note on boots and crampons.
It is true that boots have to be stiffer to accept crampons and be safe. If the boot is more flexible than the crampon it can wriggle out at the worst moment - not good!
Most hiking boots are to flexible.
Heavier hiking boots can take the most flexible type of crampons. These boots are still quite comfortable to walk in, they do flex. This is what I use (I have a pair of Scarpa SL). These crampons can have 10 or 12 spikes and are ok for non-technical ice/snow such as the stuff we would encounter.
Semi-rigid boots can take technical crampons, which are stiffer.
Then there are fully rigid boots for extreme mountaineering, which often are plastic. These take fully rigid crampons and are extremely uncomfortable to use for walking.


There is an industry-wide classification of boots and crampons.
Most boots are B0 - flexible. You can use micro-spikes or cleats on these but they are no substitute for real crampons - just useful for not slipping on a frozen pavement.
Then there are B1 boots that can use the most flexible type of crampons or "walking crampons" (C1). Modern C1 crampons usually have a basket at the front and rear and straps; fairly easy to put them up.
B2 bots are semi-rigid (for example Scarpa Manta or Scarpa Charmoz; the latter are some of the lightest B2 boots and still fairly comfortable, I have worn them 14 days straight trekking on the Andes with no pain whasoever). B2 boots are visually identifiable by a notch or welt in the heel, where one can clip in a C2 semi-rigid crampon. With these one can do technical climbs. C2 crampons usually have a basket for the toes and a clip for the heel, similar in concept to those used for skiing (but much lighter!).
For the most demanding tasks like icefall climbing a completely rigid boot and crampon are required. That's where you use B3 boots and C3 crampons. You can stand hanging off an ice wall with nothing but your front teeth of the crampon planted in the ice and the boot will not flex. C3 crampons have a clip at the back and a metal toe bail at the front, they are the easiest to put on.

Having said that not all B0 boots are equally flexible and the stiffer ones in a pinch can accept a flexible C1 crampon - although I am not suggesting you do it.

[simato73]

When I was hiking Ireland earlier in life I used to walk 10 hours per day but I do not do it in a military or alpinistic way.

Time to stop and take photos has to be calculated. Many people on the trail means many stops at many different places or the group will be torn apart.

Snow conditions requiring snow axes to prevent sliding to death are certainly beyond my level of expertise.

The big hike is about 8 hours of walking, more if the group is slow. This does not count stops for photos, eating and resting.
Given that I would recommend being considerate about the photo gear taken on the hike. Weight adds up quickly and it does slow you down a lot. This is actually the main driver that took me to Fuji X from Nikon FX.

The day is very long but all can be done providing the hikers are fit and the weather is good - if it is not photographically it would become much less worth it anyway.
If the weather is good (clear visibility) navigation on the ridge will be straightforward and there will be some scope to split and regroup if we are disciplined and do not linger too much. For safety we would regroup every time there is a point where we should be together (change of direction, more difficult terrain, decreased visibility, etc).

Ultimately a decision should be taken on site once weather conditions and snow levels are known for certain.

[simato73]

I am up for a challenging hike but I don't own or have experience using "ice axe's" or "crampons". I expect I'd have to make a decision depending on how bad the ice may be at the time. I would not want to spoil the day for experienced extreme hikers.

In case conditions are favorable a detailed list of the minimum equipment and food I will need would be very helpful. I did read Simone's advise but would like a complete list to tick off if possible.   

Cheers

I will make a list of recommended clothing etc later.

In the meantime I can add that while desirable in my eyes (I like mountaineering as much as I like photography), doing a full tour is not necessary and some could limit the hike to a "there and back again" trip that avoids the trickier parts while still taking in the highest peak, Ben Lawers, as well as the aerial views.