Author Topic: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens  (Read 46089 times)

bjornthun

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #120 on: May 21, 2016, 18:37:05 »
If you plan on carrying out a set of tests using multiple lens and camera samples, you also need to rotate the photographers taking the shots since photographer variability is likely to be much greater than lens sample variability in hand held shooting. And the number of shots made with each combination of body+lens+photographer+shutter speed should be at least 20 to get meaningful data and to reduce the effect of randomness in the hand holding on the mean and other statistics. The image should be focused using live view and the distance to target such that the shake of the lens forward and back does not affect image sharpness appreciably. The photographer should be unaware of which sample of lens they are using. This is not an easy thing to do and there are many ways to do it wrong.

If Nikon can make EFCS work without M-UP mode, and put it in more cameras, this problem would be solved for all lenses, not only the 300mm PF.
I agree completely with Ilkka's assaessment.

Erik Lund

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #121 on: May 21, 2016, 19:40:12 »
Should not be needed to do such a test IMHO - The lens should just work on any camera for almost any user.
Erik Lund

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #122 on: May 21, 2016, 19:58:34 »
I just got my D500 today and based on initial testing I do not have the VR issues in the shutterspeed range from 1/60s - 1/180s that I definitively had with my D7100.
I am a happy camper  ;D although I mostly anyhow use this lens at shutterspeeds of 1/320s and higher.
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simsurace

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #123 on: May 23, 2016, 11:29:01 »
If you plan on carrying out a set of tests using multiple lens and camera samples, you also need to rotate the photographers taking the shots since photographer variability is likely to be much greater than lens sample variability in hand held shooting. And the number of shots made with each combination of body+lens+photographer+shutter speed should be at least 20 to get meaningful data and to reduce the effect of randomness in the hand holding on the mean and other statistics. The image should be focused using live view and the distance to target such that the shake of the lens forward and back does not affect image sharpness appreciably. The photographer should be unaware of which sample of lens they are using. This is not an easy thing to do and there are many ways to do it wrong.

If Nikon can make EFCS work without M-UP mode, and put it in more cameras, this problem would be solved for all lenses, not only the 300mm PF.

The expectation of sharpness given the null hypothesis (the lens works as advertised) apparently varies from person to person. If you have a fairly wide distribution of outcomes, it requires more data to reject the null hypothesis. But instead of making a lot of experiments under the same condition, one can do a few control experiments to exclude confounding factors. For instance, the variability of shakiness of the photographer can be controlled for by putting the lens on a table or on a tripod, and shooting at even slower speeds than 1/125s. Especially the latter, i.e. shooting at 1/60s and getting results that are basically as sharp as at 1/500s or higher, removes almost any doubt that the issue is present. Or like the instance of Chris putting my lens on his D810 and getting at the first shot a tack sharp result, which he has never seen before with his lens sample. You have to have very low (and complex) expectations towards the efficacy of VR to accept this as chance.

I think this sort of data is fairly convincing even though it might not be up to the highest scientific standards. It is about as much as I'm willing to do, although I could certainly do better if I wanted to. It is Nikon's job to do more detailed research. Not only would it be highly inefficient for the user base to do this research since we don't have access to the algorithms of the VR and the various firmwares to do debugging, but it would also be unsolicited work that is unpaid and we would be doing in our spare time instead of using the lens we paid for to be functional in order to do creative work.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #124 on: May 23, 2016, 12:05:14 »
Just shot a long sequence with the 300PF on my Df. Hand-held I can easily do a stationary subject at 1/30 to 1/50 sec, with VR normal on. Tried at 1/125 hand-held and got identical results. Tested from 1/125 to 1/20 sec @VR normal on my most shaky tripod, a Gitzo that partially survived a tripod stress test I conducted a few years ago for a Norwegian magazine. It'll do service as a backup tripod in my studio where lighting is studio flashes and there is less exacting demands on tripod stability. No problems detected here either.

Each sequence had N=30, so the results are significant.

Do note this exercise used my normal approach for the 300PF, ie. shooting stationary subjects. So it only in part answers the current question about the claimed issue for the 300PF.

MFloyd

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #125 on: May 23, 2016, 17:48:03 »
Is there any report of issues on a D3 D4 or D5?,,,

Erik, do you mean in relation with the aforementioned problem, or issues in general ?
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simsurace

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #126 on: May 23, 2016, 17:57:32 »
Just shot a long sequence with the 300PF on my Df. Hand-held I can easily do a stationary subject at 1/30 to 1/50 sec, with VR normal on.
Thank you. This is very reassuring.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #127 on: May 23, 2016, 18:02:54 »
Forgot to mention that I kept the tripod collar on even for the hand-held shots. In my opinion, this actually improves the handling of this lightweight lens.

I did landscape and 45 degrees tilted shots (tripod-mounted & hand-held). The tilted shots should easily show sharpness issues were they to exist. VR Normal throughout. No mirror lock-up.

Andrea B.

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #128 on: May 23, 2016, 19:29:38 »
Simone S - Love that experimental design and discussion of expectations !!

Erik Lund

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #129 on: May 23, 2016, 20:05:18 »
Erik, do you mean in relation with the aforementioned problem, or issues in general ?
Naturally regarding the subject at hand!
Erik Lund

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #130 on: May 23, 2016, 22:36:38 »
I have shot several series with the 300PF in a shutterspeed range from 1/10 - 1/500s with both the D7100 and V1 to convince myself (and the Nikon Servicecenter in the Netherlands) that my D7100 has an issue with the VR at shutter speeds between 1/60 - 1/180s. My V1 did not have this issue using the electronic shutter.
After the firmware update the sharpness increased a bit in the mentioned shutterspeed range, but for tack sharp photos I always stayed above 1/200s. Having done all this testing, the first shots of the D500 are already convincing enough to me as with the D7100 not a single photo was tack sharp in that shutterspeed range.
For sure the damping of the mirror and shutter must be better in the D500.
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chris dees

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #131 on: May 23, 2016, 23:01:17 »
I have shot several series with the 300PF in a shutterspeed range from 1/10 - 1/500s with both the D7100 and V1 to convince myself (and the Nikon Servicecenter in the Netherlands) that my D7100 has an issue with the VR at shutter speeds between 1/60 - 1/180s. My V1 did not have this issue using the electronic shutter.
After the firmware update the sharpness increased a bit in the mentioned shutterspeed range, but for tack sharp photos I always stayed above 1/200s. Having done all this testing, the first shots of the D500 are already convincing enough to me as with the D7100 not a single photo was tack sharp in that shutterspeed range.
For sure the damping of the mirror and shutter must be better in the D500.

This is more or less my experience as well.
The 300PF and D500 are meant for each other. ;D
Chris Dees

simsurace

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #132 on: May 24, 2016, 00:07:36 »
One more reason to want a D500, LOL.
But that is still no replacement for an FX cam.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #133 on: May 24, 2016, 15:56:57 »
With the D500, I now have repeated the experiments done with my Df, and got exactly the same results.  For stationary subjects, using VR in the range 1/20 to 1/250 sec is not an issue whether shooting hand-held or using a [shaky Gitzo] tripod. I did not use electronic first curtain shutter although the D500 likely has it (haven't gone through the manual yet, but will have to to turn off the nasty wi-fi/NFC)

I have to charge more batteries so the D800 & D3X can be powered up.

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #134 on: May 24, 2016, 21:09:54 »
To put the 300 PF issues into perspective, I just mounted my 50-300/4.5 ED AI Nikkor on the D500 and verified it was at least as sharp as the 300 PF, if not sharper. Since the vintage 50-300 is purely manual (but with CPU)  there is neither AF Fine-tune nor VR behaviour to attend to.