Author Topic: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens  (Read 49102 times)

stenrasmussen

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #90 on: May 18, 2016, 20:49:33 »
Isn't it like parents/children? I've watched/observed/learnt how my kids are adapting to a lifestyle that is somewhat unknown/scary/alien to me. But if I want to be able to talk to the kids and their friends, understand their needs, etc. I better keep up.
The same goes with camera manufacturers...they simply HAVE to keep up. I guess ideally they should lead but that requires constant change and that is difficult...seemingly.

chambeshi

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #91 on: May 18, 2016, 21:58:48 »
Better that Japanese corporate culture give up its unproductive practices and attempt to understand its customers. It's not my job to understand them. It is their job to understand me and my DSLR & lens needs !!

Unless websites across the world had not posted complaints about the D600 oil splatters and similar issues, the problems would never have been fixed.

I confess to frustration with a swelling crisis. This crisis relates to recurring production problems with otherwise superb Nikon products. The VR problems arising with the in so-many-ways-superb 300 f4 PF underscores the issues at stake. Here we have a great, innovative product, which no shortage of Nikon CLIENTS seek to own, and so try and get together the considerable lump of cash. Yet the frustration arises where a core problem remains problematic and contentious. What do we hear from Nikon Public Relations on this? Silence to my knowledge. Such a crisis calls for a proactive response by the Corporation responsible. In this respect, Corporate/cultural sensitivities etc are trivial. CLIENT relations rank paramount, or rather they shound do. Yet in this case, one is lead to believe the feedback to complaints treats CLIENT concerns as superfluous.  Nikon charge a small fortune for this 300 f4 PF so at very least they should demonstrate professional commitment and responsibility.

The issues and problems raised here and elsewhere on the www are not unfounded. All of us have better things to do than as PAYING Beta-Testers one diagnoses production problems that are Nikon's.

Many of us have relied on Nikon exclusively for photography. In my case for over 30 years and much of this for scientific imaging (macro etc) of biological specimens and landscapes including study sites and landscapes in a geomorphological/geological context. Where time and resources have permitted, and here I've been very fortunate in central Africa, I have used manual  telephots for wildlife photography. A privilege. There are many thousands who make up the committed user base of Nikon - and especially Nikkor. We longer term users, who keep upgrading to new products are devoted CLIENTS of the brand. In my case, many are devout, in fact zealous to the Nikon brand. And like so many, I have also benefited from other Nikon products in the digital revolution e.g the Coolpix 950 etc and AW1, which are indeed superb for scientific fieldwork and recreational photography.

These new AF-S, G lenses and fantastic digital DX and FX products each cost thousands of US $ today. Many of us could only dream of owning such a lens when studying and starting to earn etc. Now those Nikon CLIENTS who can afford them (well sort of/just!) have to endure being used as experimental subjects on products in which production problems (or whatever they really are) could be more easily solved without recourse to Forums. This is if the manufacturer handled the problem with due serious before it becomes a crisis.

But we little option. Not all of us are privy to the inner workings of Nikon, nor have direct access to key office bearers in Repairs etc. The very fact that these complaints and error reports appear are on Forums is due to (1) Truth-seeking by the product user seeking confirmation that the technical problem is real and not due to user error etc (one I often make, so I seek peer review!) This is especially where one has shelled out a small fortune on the likes of a 200-500 or 300f4 PF, and (2) More seriously, and more to the point, CLIENT support is inadequate, in some cases we hear of dismissive, if not arrogant denials. What, one can only ask, has happened to professional CLIENT relations?

I will remain with Nikon for Macrophotography - my optical equipment will last my life time and more. And other flash systems will work. Equally, I will remain using Nikkor AFD lenses where these work (med range zooms and especially the Defocus-Control 135 and 105) And I one am loath to be forced to buy Sigma telephoto lenses but this is now the logical option one is being forced toward by more and more evidence for Nikon's tactics that uses the BUYER as product tester. aka Microsoft selling the first software iterations to consumers to test and fix- What Dave Cutler architect of the VAX on DEC and WinNT calls eating dogfood....

And yes Canon, Fuji,  Olympus etc are there as excellent viable systems for telephoto photography. I cannot afford a 600 f4 Nikkor with its superb AF etc, so the 300 PF with a TC on a DX is the logical alternative. And after so many decades let alone years, I am loath to switch brands. But I will! At least 4 Nikon stalwarts I know have already made this choice, and as it stands I give them hell, but who can blame them? One is forced to take this route, but the way the forum pitch rises more and more Nikon CLIENTS will have no option.

Only at its peril that Nikon can try and modulate genuine CLIENT complaints through the lens of corporate culture. The perception of the Westener to tactics of denial and obfuscation etc is to take this as a lack of concern, or even disinterest by the manufacturer, at worst the complaintant, often in high spirits given the costs involved feels treated with arrogant contempt. This is a terrible shame and plain bad manners, given how the new generation of corporate representatives abuse the reputation of the Nikon brand!

The main reason is declining quality control and mounting frustrations among dedicated CLIENTS. Here again Nikon would be wise to stand up and take this very seriously. Many such CLIENTS are inaugural purchasers of these big lenses. As soon as they run initial tests they post their finds and gripes on Blogs...and no surprise, these swing opinions of emerging photographers. If favourable, many of the latter will buy into such expensive lenses - and thus the BRAND. So no mystery here, they become future Nikon CLIENTS, but as they stand - before purchase - they rank among the vast ranks of CONSUMERS of lenses and related products in the cut-throat market of digital photography. Brand loyalty for these markets is fickle and brutal for the seller. Lessons? Witness cellular phones and other IT products, Nikon.

It is at their peril Nikon makes the risky mistake of lumping loyal CLIENTS into the amorphous sea of CONSUMERS. For its own corporate survival, let alone professional integrity, Nikon needs to overhaul how it handles its relationships with its core base of CLIENTS. As it stands, our brand loyalty is a precious resource. We have invested thousands of dollars in what is still in key aspects an outstanding product. This loyalty to the brand deserves professional service. Nevertheless, there are OTHER options.....

Speaking as a scientist, let's close with two hard facts:
(1) the core way to maintain product quality lies in Honest, Rigorous testing, coupled with professional service with newly released products (something Nikon can do very well, OR did?). The BUYER can indeed participate in testing but only where this delicate process is performed honestly and professionally. Such a Beta-process testing (to borrow Software terminology) can be iterative but it sure is risky. Trying to such Beta-Testing anonymously is precarious at best, engaging paying clients requires strict controls and guidelines in place. A Golden Rule would be to handle what is less than FREE feedback with respect.

(2) In the spirit of Admiral Rickover, the architect of nuclear power and strategic submarines, and in the words of Richard Feynman (ironically a key architect of the Manhattan Project) "Reality takes precedence over Public Relations, for Nature cannot be Fooled!"

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #92 on: May 18, 2016, 22:19:17 »
I'm not defending Nikon's practice. I try to understand why these problems arise and how they should be best solved from a user's perspective. That is a world of difference involved. Shouting is not the better way.

Big corporations everywhere are shown to do bad things. Just think of Volkswagen. Nikon is a small player on this field. Do not for a second think other camera makers are much different even they might be bigger.

simsurace

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #93 on: May 18, 2016, 22:29:15 »
Unless websites across the world had not posted complaints about the D600 oil splatters and similar issues, the problems would never have been fixed.
If I remember correctly, the service advisory came shortly after a Chinese class action lawsuit had been filed. I can't tell whether there is a causal connection though, maybe Nikon's fix would have come anyways. But a lot of people make the conclusion you are making, and that is where the reputation of the brand is damaged.
Simone Carlo Surace
suracephoto.com

Andrea B.

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2016, 04:05:37 »
The problems arise from inadequate quality control and/or inadequate testing. An antique "corporate culture" compounds the problems. Customers suffer the consequences and then stop buying.

Hugh_3170

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2016, 04:35:00 »
I was aware of a pending US lawsuit, but the Chinese one is new to me. 

Sad that it had to get to this. Sadder still is that it has tarnished the name of a great company and that of the D600, which finally established itself (and its D610 twin brother) as a good camera once the oil splatter issue was eventually cured.


If I remember correctly, the service advisory came shortly after a Chinese class action lawsuit had been filed. I can't tell whether there is a causal connection though, maybe Nikon's fix would have come anyways. But a lot of people make the conclusion you are making, and that is where the reputation of the brand is damaged.
Hugh Gunn

chambeshi

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2016, 07:36:58 »
I'm not defending Nikon's practice. I try to understand why these problems arise and how they should be best solved from a user's perspective. That is a world of difference involved. Shouting is not the better way.

Big corporations everywhere are shown to do bad things. Just think of Volkswagen. Nikon is a small player on this field. Do not for a second think other camera makers are much different even they might be bigger.

My apologies if words in CAPITALS are seem to denote increased auditory volume (if one applies email syntax. My apologies readers, I should used Bold)... In the case of those who rely on Nikon gear, it is crucial to distinguish between Clients versus Consumers (even though this distinction overlaps somewhat in a grey zone). Nevertheless, the status of a Client is obvious because these individuals have bought into Nikon, and continue to do so. Some have mortgaged themselves in more ways than one.

I agree with your thoughts on this, and suspect our respective values at stake here are congruent. VW makes great cars. But recent events mean that ethically for me, I will never buy one; yet, in fact, a VW Polo was to be the next car I would buy. And some of us ecological literates with an environmental conscience spit on certain corporate names, especially BP and Union Carbide (and whatever it has metamorphosed into...). This is another topic....

Nikon Corp. seems to be in a different category in relation to its client-base and the exploding market in digital photography. It still enjoys remarkable brand loyalty. I would venture to suggest the standing loyalty and prestige of the Nikon brand stands so high that it'is a hard one to match in the economic marketplace. Yet its position is more and more precarious. The emerging generations of consumers, and the latter is not only vast but it is a different animal compared against those of us who grew up with film, and/or got into photography as Digital first took off within the past 2 decades. A significant proportion of this emerging cohort buying into a SLR camera system Could grow into Nikon Clients. Arguably, Key factors must be at play as to initial market choices, especially where the individual's first camera in the SLR-mirrorless niches, and especially choices of 35 mm lenses (likely DX). These will mature into follow up purchases. They are contingent on initial experience of the individual. And these consumers use the www with a passion to make their choices....Fujifilm, Canon etc OR Nikon ???

Nikon is on a cusp in its marketshare, as the digital market explodes. The market for outdoor photography (wildlife, landscapes, macro etc) is interesting here, because this is where the more expensive lighter weight VR lenses open remarkable opportunities for Nikon (and also Canon, Sigma etc) to sell decent quantities of desirable instruments. This is precisely where the extant cohorts of Clients interface with new products. It is especially where those gurus among us report back on initial experiences. Bloggers report to the world. Forums are accessible to the researching consumer agonizing over what model lens to buy etc....This is  Especially where the experienced, erudite Nikon Client rhapsodizes over the new products AND also highlights early bugs and reports how Nikon handled them. Forums are an increasingly important in this market forcing. They are central locations where new innovations and also problems are identified and responded to. As with any such analogous concerns being publicized by a committed, informed and literate minority, this market force cannot be suppressed (even in places like China or Zimbabwe).

For Nikon, the implications, especially the risks should be self evident. The Nikon Client is a market agent - if not force - Of Note!

How Nikon treats this cohort of current Clients will - in increasingly fundamental ways - determine its destiny. To repeat, this causal relationship between sales and markets and produce should be self evident. And the likes of busy professionals such as myself would not move to contribute to such a forum unless we believed in what they say. I write as a zealous Client, who wants to continue to invest in a superb product but am wary of wasting scarce funds on an expensive instrument that has yet to be developed/manufactured to its full potential.

I am even available to beta-test such an instrument, provided the legal relationship between the Client and Manufacturer is clear. As the situation stands, for the very first time  (how sad!) I am forced to consider buying 3rd party lenses to use on my Nikon bodies. Recent problems, especially Nikon's corporate attitude (judged by how it is releasing and managing new products) leave some of us Nikon Clients with little else in the way of options.

This means I will stick to my treasured (and dynamic) inventory of Used lenses (AF-D being the most modern) but refrain from buying into new Nikon glass. I never thought I would come to write words akin to this last sentence! And my advice to an budding wildlife photographer en route to Botswana or Zambia or wherever? Sure my friend, buy a D7200 (or D500 if you can afford it or even better FX like the D810, Df etc) and i'll help you out with loaning / selecting older classic lenses. But go to Sigma for your telephotos....such advice will snowball....

kind regards, chambeshi

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2016, 07:57:07 »
Had Internet been free of the high noise levels, it might have been more influential vs the camera makers. Now, any message or feedback tends to drown or lose impact in a virtual world populated by 'experts'. All too frequently this perspective is a victim of the 'net as well. The consumers want the newest and most advanced items and they want it *now*. Urgently. Product cycles tighten and field testing suffers.

I do not advocate passivity when technical issues arise. On the contrary, actively complain, but use the appropriate channels. Submit reports via dealers or even better, directly to the national Nikon head offices. I have done this a lot myself, and have seen my suggestions being implemented in later models.

Unfortunately, or not, my 300 PF has delivered quality results without any associated issues on all cameras it has been tested with so far. The lens was held back on delivery for the hardware fix to be performed on it. I'll receive my D500 shortly and will of course pair it with the 300 PF to learn of any issues.

As the Nikon Df has become my work horse for visible-light photography, I'm using mainly manual lenses with it. The Df interfaces quite badly with a lot of the AF/AFS constructions  anyway, and I have plenty of manual F-mount lenses to choose from.
 

simsurace

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2016, 09:14:08 »
Internet noise levels are in part high because there are very little signs of someone listening. In addition, traditional channels are (apparently) often blocked by customer friction such as
- The representative available for direct communication is not technically knowledgeable
- The response is that there is no known issue, which is false since the issue was just reported by the very customer whom he is replying to, thus making it known
- No offer of a solution which is satisfactory to the customer

This does not hold for Nikon, but many other companies. They could do many things to improve customer satisfaction and the feedback cycle, such as
- Put technically astute reps into major forums to listen and respond to feedback
- Issue a 'we are working on it' statement even before the problem is solved. This shows commitment and reduces the internet noise on that issue.
- Communicate that feedback is welcome and that the company is willing to use the feedback to improve the product

Ultimately, the collective voice of all customers is right, even in cases where it might be objectively wrong or exaggerated. There is no authority which will be able to rectify matters when the brand reputation has suffered too much. Thus even what is called noise is fully legitimate, and the company has to deal with it. Managing it in an active way would be better in my opinion.

In my personal case with the 300PF, the response to my written report (which was well laid out, not some confused babble, I think) was very unsatisfactory, even after a supervisor has been consulted. This might just be reflective of the specific reps I had access to, or it might reflect the official stance and attitude within Nikon. I don't know. I still hope to be able to convince them with data that there is an issue. I might even have to go to the service center personally even though that requires me to take half a day off from work due to its remoteness. All of this takes a major commitment from my side, and I expect a little commitment from their side as well.
Simone Carlo Surace
suracephoto.com

chris dees

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2016, 11:28:53 »
Today I had an email conversation with a/my NPS rep and he stated Nikon is aware of the problems.
He has a 300PF with issues himself, so I don't have to explain him everything and I'm sure he will monitor it. :)
He also said that using a grip most of the problems are gone. This is the same as i experienced
 
Chris Dees

simsurace

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #100 on: May 19, 2016, 11:31:44 »
Today I had an email conversation with a/my NPS rep and he stated Nikon is aware of the problems.
He has a 300PF with issues himself, so I don't have to explain him everything and I'm sure he will monitor it. :)
He also said that using a grip most of the problems are gone. This is the same as i experienced

Wow great!
Simone Carlo Surace
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #101 on: May 19, 2016, 12:26:21 »
Manufacturers' official presence on the most active online forums might have its own problems. On many prominent forums (not this one), it is obvious that many of the posters are not sincere and post with the intention of stirring discussion and agitating others. Often small issues which do not really affect photography are made into large "issues" (I'm not talking about this thread; I do believe issues such as the D600's dust, the D800's AF and the 300 PF's VR problems are real). People get attacked all the time.  It would be very difficult for an official representative of a manufacturer to figure out what is true and what is fiction on some of those forums. People simply take too many liberties when they can post anonymously and sincere people can easily get hurt in the process (not to mention the truth as a casualty). I'm not saying that monitoring online forum activity would not be useful, and maybe Nikon is doing that in some way. However, in my opinion it is best if users with technical problems contact Nikon regional representatives directly and report the problem. Sometimes the problem gets solved, other times it does not.  I think it's the same with any type of product. Perfection is rare and one might argue that chasing perfection can lead one astray from the path which could lead them to a finding something that works well enough. It can also lead to more expensive products that achieve less, if taken to extremes.

I think rather than resort to trying to get a large corporation which I am very much dependent on, to admit fault and fix a product quickly, I try to be practical. Most products have good and bad sides and I include bugs and quality variations as part of the "quality of the product". I look for products that I can use to make photographs that I want to make. I don't try to chase perfection in products that I buy but I do try to achieve some degree of quality in the photography that I produce. To me the gear is just a tool and if it works, I am happy. If there is a problem with a product, I usually bring it up online - not because I expect the manufacturer to respond, but so that other photographers can be aware of the problem and depending on how they use their gear, decide whether it may apply to their use case or not. This discussion then becomes a part of the collective evaluation of the product quality and that may affect sales in a small way. In the grand view of things such processes (and others) contribute to the sales and the commercial success of a product. What a consumer can do is simply try to find products that will work for their needs and just carry on with the photography instead of being stuck trying to solve a technical problem which is outside of their control.  I'm not saying that one should not complain about it - but once it is reported to Nikon then let them try to figure out a solution and ultimately if they are able to do so, they are likely to contact you with details of the solution. This has happened to me - I reported a problem with a F70 a long time ago - the exposure metering actually had two problems, one of which was a camera specific  fault, the other was a problem they could solve with a new circuit that became available six months later. In the beginning it took some convincing the reps that there was a problem but I was able to do so in a convincing way. Now, it is crucial to find the right person to talk to, when explaining a technical problem. And then try to form a personal working relationship with that person over time.

simsurace

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #102 on: May 19, 2016, 13:16:58 »
Putting reps into forums would almost certainly calm the situation down. All but the most aggressive personalities would try to be diplomatic towards the rep if the latter proves that he is listening. We see this working in many businesses, where social media channels are used to build the customer relationship. Sometimes those people have to stand some heat, but the heat is much less than if these channels do not exist and it is simply a monologue and complaining fest. It is true that we read some complaints which come down to user error or bad faith, or are delivered in a very rude form. But if it is quite easy for us to filter these out, it should be just as easy for a technically knowledgeable representative.

But I'm not really here to tell Nikon what they should be doing. They have to figure this out for themselves, and if they think the current approach is good enough, so be it. I was just mentioning a few ideas.

Now that Chris found someone to talk to at Nikon who not only acknowledges the issue, but even says that someone is working on it, I'm putting my complaints on hold. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the lens, and I hope that it will become even better over time.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Erik Lund

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #103 on: May 20, 2016, 11:30:44 »
Well stated Illka - On a general note, please just enjoy your cameras and lenses - Learn how to work around any issues or return/sell the equipment if you don't like how they work... I have a 300mm f/4 PF it does do nice images at any speed on D810. Even with TC's

On the specific issue with VR - My guess is that the cameras in question have too little mass or a mass at a critical low value - The issue could be the VR is designed around more or less stable camera (heavy camera) and lens going/swinging up/down/sideways - With a light weight camera/lens the whole thing is moving lens and camera, sometimes camera more than lens,,,

Think how the VR lens element compensates, how it actually moves when for instance panning, the element should/can only compensate for up/down shake of the lens and not the rotation of lens/camera... unless it's set for Action VR then it tries to compensate for both camera and lens movements...
Erik Lund

chris dees

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #104 on: May 20, 2016, 12:54:07 »
Erik, I think it should be something different the just weight.
Why do I experience it on the D810 and not on the D500 (which is much lighter) and why do some people have problems (eg. D810 + 300PF) and others have not with the same equipment.
There should be more. Why takes it so long for Nikon to find a real solution?

BTW. I'm keeping mine as there're much more positives than negatives and I'l avoid shooting at low speed with VR on my D810. :D
I'm sure Nikon will come with a solution.
Chris Dees