Workflow - LR - consider alternatives ?

[RobOK]

@RobOK:
Which platform are you on?

For
- import/rename
- culling / rating
- metadata
PhotoMechanic is King of the Hill.

But searching is Mac only.
On a Mac, PhotoMechanic can us Spotlight for image searching, but not so on Windows.

cheers
afx

I was windows for a long time, but the past 3-4 years I have been exclusively on Mac.  While I am frustrated with LR, I will probably stick with it.  Like everyone, I want the speed of PM with the functionality of LR.

A long time ago I had used Bibble and liked it, didn't it get rolled into some other product via an acquisition, or is it totally dead?

I'll keep my eye on CaptureOne.

[afx]

@Andreas: could you explain a bit more about "Its silly insistence on specific output places" regarding C1? I don't understand that.

Output is always to the session directory or in subdirectories of it.
No way to put it into a parallel hierarchy.
No way to construct output paths according to variables (they can do it with names, why not directories?).
The need to have a session is just a major PITA.

A long time ago I had used Bibble and liked it, didn't it get rolled into some other product via an acquisition, or is it totally dead?

Thanks to some miss-planning, Eric had to sell it.
Unfortunately he sold it to Corel. It is now named AfterShot.
Though nominally Corel puts in more resources than Bibblelabs did after the downsizing before the end, the results do not show it.
I use it for download, culling and initial meta-data entry, as well as quick and dirty pics where the effort of going into LR is just not worth it.

cheers
afx

[Bjørn Rørslett]

I had similar reaction to the idiosyncratic file management in C1. That, combined with a definite bias in processing quality for a specific brand (which I don't use) at the time lead me to abandon C1 complete, even when I was provided with a free license. Things might have changed over the last few years, however the response of Andreas tells me not all is well.

I'm among the earlier fans of Bibble who mourns its tragic demise. Bibble was terse and cut straight to the chase. You were given the native and plug-in tools and  file features required for a very efficient work flow, and little assistance in making it work. If you persevered, and learned all the keyboard short cuts, Bibble could fly you effortlessly through your files in a short time, all within an easily customisable processing pipeline.

Aftershot has been handled in a strange fashion by Corel and there were times I believed they just would kill the software and save the juicy bits into other applications of their own. Somehow Aftershot survived, but is shadow of its former past. Like Andreas, I use it for quick-and-dirty work. Sometimes I rely on Aftershot to provide the colour impression of an IR image also processed by PhotoNinja. The latter software is almost devoid of sensible file handling and cries for an improvement in that aspect.

[Jørgen Ramskov]

I cannot offer faster culling. But where Andreas is offering iMatch win only, i offer photo supreme (PSU). While PSU is both win and mac, it also comes with a server version that uses PostgreSQL. As you may know, that is a grown up database.

PSU itself is not the fastest in the world, but is very stable (for me at least). I run the postgres server on the same machine as is my workstation. You are free to choose any configuration you like, probably depending on how much of a DB admin you are.

PSU is good enough for importing, it offers a host of naming/renaming options and file placement options. Culling with selects, or star ratings, or colour flags. Sending to external raw converters (i use C1, PN and LightZone), pixel editors (e.g. Pixelmator, Affinity Photo), or other sorts (email, HDR, stacking, etc.). It is also pretty strong in metadata, even though i don't use much of that. I do use the catalog keyword hierarchy for my organization, but don't really use image metadata.

This is interesting, I will have to try this. I see it supports face detection, have you tried that?

[Almass]

Output is always to the session directory or in subdirectories of it.
No way to put it into a parallel hierarchy.
No way to construct output paths according to variables (they can do it with names, why not directories?).
The need to have a session is just a major PITA.

Thanks to some miss-planning, Eric had to sell it.
Unfortunately he sold it to Corel. It is now named AfterShot.
Though nominally Corel puts in more resources than Bibblelabs did after the downsizing before the end, the results do not show it.
I use it for download, culling and initial meta-data entry, as well as quick and dirty pics where the effort of going into LR is just not worth it.

cheers
afx

I still do not understand what you want to do?

Do you mean outputting to different folders?

This is possible in C1P by simply adding another recipe to the process.

You want to output a selection by aperture or shutter or ISO or whatever to different folders? This is also possible.

You want to change the naming? It is also possible,

Could you clarify what it is exactly you wish to do and cannot be done in C1P?

[HCS]

Output is always to the session directory or in subdirectories of it.
No way to put it into a parallel hierarchy.
No way to construct output paths according to variables (they can do it with names, why not directories?).
The need to have a session is just a major PITA.
...

Well, Andreas, no doubt you know your systems. I mean, i've seen the Bibble Bible you wrote. But, this is plain wrong. You can have the recipes output any which way you like.

However, it is true that it cannot be done with variables.

Just to avoid any fanboy remarks, i'm not one. C1's DAM capabilities, or rather lack thereof, steered me away initially. Later, i found out that the session route combined with a real dam (or at least a more proper one), let me do all the stuff that is being called for here and in other forums.

But, not unlike Bibble in its glory days, this is a complex piece of software and one really needs to hang in there to get it to work for ones own workflow. I know it took me about a year and a half after Phase One kinda abandoned Media Pro to find a way of working that suits me. YMMV. I do feel though that making blanket statements about some software on how it does or doesn't work without getting to the bottom of it (or so it seems) isn't particularly helpful.

Other than that, i believe you are quite well versed in iMatch and i think that is every bit as good as the DAM i use, but just not Mac.

If anyone has any questions about C1 and wants to call my "bluff", of course i will see if i can help. The same goes for all other applications i use, photo supreme, photo ninja, affinity photo, pixelmator, zerene stacker, photomatix pro, autopano giga, lightzone, to name a few.

[afx]

I still do not understand what you want to do?

Do you mean outputting to different folders?
This is possible in C1P by simply adding another recipe to the process.
You want to output a selection by aperture or shutter or ISO or whatever to different folders? This is also possible.
You want to change the naming? It is also possible,
Could you clarify what it is exactly you wish to do and cannot be done in C1P?

My images are in
d:/Year/Project/image.nef

I want to send JPGs to
r:/Year/Project/image.jpg

Last week I confirmed with PhaseOne support that this is still not possible without explicitly entering the destination manually. It can not be derived from the current image location.
Not really brilliant for an efficient workflow...

cheers
afx

[afx]

Well, Andreas, no doubt you know your systems. I mean, i've seen the Bibble Bible you wrote. But, this is plain wrong. You can have the recipes output any which way you like.

However, it is true that it cannot be done with variables.

That is exactly the point. As soon as I have to enter stuff manually, it becomes inefficient.

Later, i found out that the session route combined with a real dam (or at least a more proper one), let me do all the stuff that is being called for here and in other forums.

Hmm, me thinks the session as anchor for everything is like having all the negatives of a DB without any of the advantages.

But, not unlike Bibble in its glory days, this is a complex piece of software and one really needs to hang in there to get it to work for ones own workflow.

I barely survive LR at the moment and would happily switch.
But I could not crack the messed up I/O. That also includes storing settings in an extra directory instead with the files which breaks all file system semantics when trying to integrate it with regular file system management applications.
I like customizable UI, the IQ is there, but the sessions and the I/O keep me form really digging into it. I've been trying again and again since version 6.

Other than that, i believe you are quite well versed in iMatch and i think that is every bit as good as the DAM i use, but just not Mac.

Actually, I don't really use it right now. Currently I don't have the need for a real DAM, I just use the toy stuff in AS and LR for a few quick searches.

If anyone has any questions about C1 and wants to call my "bluff", of course i will see if i can help.

If you could help me to find my way into C1, I'd be happy...

cheers
afx

[HCS]

Well Andreas, reading back my post it seems i got a little ahead of myself. Sorry if i came across rude.

I know that C1 cannot direct output based on tokens. Of course i don't use it that way, otherwise i'd feel the same as you.

Having said that, i'm using recipes directed to specific output. So, not JPEG and then wanting to use variables to direct output for NG, or my own website. I use an NG recipe and another one for my website. This way you get some more recipes (not sure if that's a bad thing) and still get my output directed to the "right" output home dir. I use the subfolder option in the recipe that i indeed change manually each time it need changing.

It works for me though.

After i've done the output with C1, i then import the output images back in PSU (using verify folder) and they'll automatically be stacked as versions of the original (in my case depending on naming scheme).

I'd be more than willing to help out if i can, but then i'd need more precise questions so i can test it myself.

One tip (if you hadn't found out already) is the website of Paul Steunebrink, the image alchemist (http://imagealchemist.net/). Good info and tips for C1 there. He is also rather responsive in the Phase One user forums.

[Jørgen Ramskov]

If anyone has any questions about C1 and wants to call my "bluff", of course i will see if i can help. The same goes for all other applications i use, photo supreme, photo ninja, affinity photo, pixelmator, zerene stacker, photomatix pro, autopano giga, lightzone, to name a few.

Now you mention it I asked about the face detection feature in Photo Supreme earlier in the thread. Any experience with that?

I have Pixelmator too, but never really started using it, do you like it?

[RobOK]

Seems like a lot of Bibble alumni here, I had no idea! What is today's equivalent of Bibble? Best quality of RAW conversion, highly configurable, open architecture for plugins? I guess LR carries *some* of those attributes. Doesn't sound like AfterShot is worth checking out?

[afx]

What is today's equivalent of Bibble? 

Does not exist....

Best quality of RAW conversion, highly configurable, open architecture for plugins? I guess LR carries *some* of those attributes. Doesn't sound like AfterShot is worth checking out?

Currently there is no single tool that really just works. Each of them has different warts to put it mildly.

As long as yo don't get close to the edge (high ISO, strong manipulations), AfterShot is still quite usable.  Most other programs are better in that area nowadays, but in terms of usability, they all suck compared to AfterShot, with PictureNinja being the worst. That is a program for low volume shooters, but don't even think processing a concert or wedding with it. But it has probably the best IQ....

cheers
afx

[HCS]

Now you mention it I asked about the face detection feature in Photo Supreme earlier in the thread. Any experience with that?

I have Pixelmator too, but never really started using it, do you like it?

Jørgen, not i haven't yet. I'm still pushing it ahead. I do use catalog labels to label my family and relatives, so it should be fairly easy. But, i haven't tried it.

Do i like Pxm? Well, it works for most tasks and pretty fast at that. But, i don't like the snails pace of its development. I've purchased Affinity Photo as well (took part in their beta) and it seems more potent. But then again, what do i know, i am not, nor have i ever been a post processing buff. Affinity seems to be after Adobe, so that at least is promising.

[afx]

Been experimenting with C1 again tonight.

Tried to have watermarks.
Good what a pain.
The text watermark field does not have metadata variables. So every time the year in the field does not match the year of the image or the photographer does not match, one needs to fiddle with it.

Ok, so me thinks I have batch files with ImageMagick that do this for me and I try to use them in the "Open with" field. No luck, that field accepts only EXE files.
I'll try to trick this by hacking the config file if I can find it.... Too late for today.

Sometimes you wonder how little clue about practical usage those programmers have...

cheers
afx

[HCS]

Been experimenting with C1 again tonight.

Tried to have watermarks.
Good what a pain.
The text watermark field does not have metadata variables. So every time the year in the field does not match the year of the image or the photographer does not match, one needs to fiddle with it.

Ok, so me thinks I have batch files with ImageMagick that do this for me and I try to use them in the "Open with" field. No luck, that field accepts only EXE files.
I'll try to trick this by hacking the config file if I can find it.... Too late for today.

Sometimes you wonder how little clue about practical usage those programmers have...

cheers
afx

Excellent suggestions Andreas. While i don't use watermarks much, i also saw that that area is ... well uhh ... lacking.

You could help your self and others using this by raising a support case for phase one with feature request in the header. This is the way they track interest in certain functions.

It's quite true that the company phase one is by far more interested in the hardware they produce and sell.