Author Topic: Nikon Z DX rumors?  (Read 1240 times)

MEPER

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Nikon Z DX rumors?
« on: December 06, 2021, 22:23:31 »
Are there any rumors on new DX cameras?
I could use a hi-res about 40 MP DX camera (hopefully with IBIS) with same or better ISO performance of Z50 which I have.
If such a camera was announced I think I would go with that rather than a FX camera.

I like the x1.5 factor, the compactness and the nice performance using vintage lenses.

ColinM

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2021, 22:36:59 »
Ahh, the Z D500?

MEPER

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2021, 22:55:27 »
Yes, the current Z50 is more or less a "compact" D500?
Now it is time for Nikon to come up with some really "new".....their own patented super-sensors and not just some "old" Sony image sensors :-)
Years back Nikon had own image sensors for their still-cameras?

They do develop sensors?
https://www.nikon.com/news/2021/0303_cmos_01.htm

Bruno Schroder

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2021, 09:48:20 »
Ahh, the Z D500?
I would buy it immediately …

They should be able to build a DX with the pixel density of the CX now, I guess.
Bruno Schröder

Jan Anne

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2021, 10:17:01 »
Think diffraction might be an issue with such a high pixel density.
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2021, 11:14:18 »
Think diffraction might be an issue with such a high pixel density.

I don't think so; many Z lenses have flat MTF50 from wide open to around f/8, suggesting that the sensor is limiting the system resolution in this range of apertures. In a diffraction-limited scenario ,wider apertures have higher MTF than mid apertures, which is not happening here.

E.g., https://www.ephotozine.com/article/nikon-nikkor-z-70-200mm-f-2-8-vr-s-review-34960/performance

In an aberration-limited scenario the widest apertures would be lower than mid apertures, which is also not happening with many of the best Z lenses, apart from the corners, so the lenses have potential for much more than they are giving on 45 MP FX. I recall Zeiss noting they measured 400 lpmm from the 135 mm APO Sonnar using high-resolution black and white film. To fully resolve the image from that lens, you'd need a gigapixel sensor. Goto noted that "there is no limit" and that 100 MP would be useful (in a Nikon Owner interview) and I'd expect Nikon to have planned for that in the S-line lens designs.

Of course, while increasing sensor resolution improves the system MTF, to avoid noise from becoming an issue, one needs to have sufficient light.

Jan Anne

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2021, 13:09:03 »
Sure, but I don’t think this applies to vintage lenses and cheap DX Zee lenses but might be interesting for birders with the new Z tele lenses.

Also don’t get the use of vintage lenses on DX cameras btw as the good stuff which makes the character of a lens interesting usually happens in the outer areas which is cropped away. Its like the opposite of why I use vintage lenses on the Z6 bit that might be just personal taste.
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Jan Anne

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2021, 13:47:43 »
The highly regarded 50/1.8S does not seem to out resolve the Z7 sensor at 45MP but diffraction kicks in hard at f/5.6:
https://www.opticallimits.com/nikon_ff/1109-nikkorz5018s?start=1

With slower less sharp zoom lenses there’s probably already an issue and for DX the resolution on the Z7 is only 19MP, with 40MP the diffraction will probably already peak around f/4 which those lenses which some are not even capable of at the long end.

The 70-200 was btw tested on a Z5, not very surprising that it out resolves a 24MP FX sensor :)
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2021, 14:34:55 »
The highly regarded 50/1.8S does not seem to out resolve the Z7 sensor at 45MP but diffraction kicks in hard at f/5.6:
https://www.opticallimits.com/nikon_ff/1109-nikkorz5018s?start=1


The center looks as flat as even the best lenses and from f/1.8 to f/5.6 it's MTF is only slightly lower than the 58/0.95 which according to Nikon is the highest-resolution lens. As the lens and sensor both contribute to the MTF over a wide range of spatial frequencies, no doubt the Z 50/1.8 S will show substantially improved MTF when combined with a 100 MP sensor. Corners are likely to show a bit less improvement but still some.

Quote
With slower less sharp zoom lenses there’s probably already an issue

There is no such issue; increasing sensor resolution always improves system MTF or keeps it the same. It never decreases the system MTF, which could indeed be considered a problem if that happened.

Quote
and for DX the resolution on the Z7 is only 19MP, with 40MP the diffraction will probably already peak around f/4 which those lenses which some are not even capable of at the long end.

"Peak" is not necessary to achieve, what people shooting with teles are typically looking for is some improvement in detail.

Quote
The 70-200 was btw tested on a Z5, not very surprising that it out resolves a 24MP FX sensor :)

Okay, my mistake, but a similar story can be seen on the Z7 at dxomark:

https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-NIKKOR-Z-70-200mm-F28-VR-S-on-Nikon-Z7-versus-Nikon-NIKKOR-Z-58mm-F095-S-NOCT-on-Nikon-Z7__2058_1270_2064_1270

click measurements / sharpness / profiles and then select aperture.

basically very little variation in sharpness across image position or aperture between f/2.8 and f/5.6, and only slightly behind the Noct. These lenses show a lot of potential for improved image detail when a higher-resolution sensor is eventually made available.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2021, 14:54:17 »
An example of why it's important to go to higher sensor pixel counts is the aliasing that occurs with modern lenses on 45 MP FX sensors; when photographing small birds with the D850 and 500 PF, I've experienced a lot of moire. In my people photography I typically avoid the issue by using faster lenses at wider apertures (such as f/1.4-f/2) or deeply stopped down (in the studio, f/11) where the moire is rarely exhibited, but at mid apertures it's a more frequent issue. To avoid it and to extract maximum (true) detail out of a lens, the sensor should be clearly higher resolution than the lens. Otherwise the issue will pop up at optimum aperture with proper technique (either electronic or electronic front curtain shutter, tripod, fast enough shutter speed or flash). As you increase sensor resolution, when there is no longer any change in the image at optimum aperture, then the sensor is high enough resolution to get correct rendering of the subject. We are far away from that with 45 MP, and lenses keep getting sharper and sharper so the goalpost of aliasing-free imaging keeps being moved (and higher pixel counts will eventually be needed to resolve the issue).

MEPER

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2021, 20:17:22 »
A lens that can resolve 10MP on a 20MP sensor may be able to resolve 12MP on a 40MP sensor?

A vintage lens that are not able to resolve a hi-res sensor at pixel level will probably still look better than trying to "up-sample" at lower resolution image.

Other sensor formats could also be fun. Like a 16x16mm or 24x24mm square format?
Maybe a circular sensor?    .....then 100% freedom was possible for later cropping?
Problem would be lenses that has built-in a "window shade" at the rear.....don't know what that is called. They will not do circular images I assume.

Jan Anne

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2021, 10:10:24 »
Well the Z50 is already two years old and overdue for an update :)

I expect an announcement once the bulk of the Z9 pre orders have been shipped, hopefully with an Expeed 7 chip onboard and a little more pixels. The competition sits around 26 and 33MP for a while now so a latest spec sensor should be as clean as the current 20MP sensor.
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Bruno Schroder

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2021, 10:30:21 »
Well the Z50 is already two years old and overdue for an update :).

What are the physical requirements of IBIS and Expeed7 and consequences on power draw and battery size? Not sure it would be compatible with the current Z DX form factor, but I’ve not given it a lot of thought.
Bruno Schröder

Luc

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2021, 16:23:14 »
Well the Z50 is already two years old and overdue for an update :)

I expect an announcement once the bulk of the Z9 pre orders have been shipped, hopefully with an Expeed 7 chip onboard and a little more pixels. The competition sits around 26 and 33MP for a while now so a latest spec sensor should be as clean as the current 20MP sensor.

It might be more logical for Nikon to introduce a Z70 with more MP's and features like IBIS or a Z90 as Zuccessor to the D500. That would allow Nikon to keep the Z50 as a lower priced entry model which will take over the role of the D3xx/D5xxx DX DSLR cameras on the shelves of Wallmart, Costco, Darty, MediaMarkt etc.

Jan Anne

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Re: Nikon Z DX rumors?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2021, 17:53:51 »
Makes sense :)

Personally I am going back and forth on what to replace the D500 with, the main reasons I bought one for tele use over an FX DSLR was full frame AF point coverage, DX viewfinder, higher frame rate and finally price.

The first three reasons are no longer applicable as FX Zee cameras have full frame AF coverage, the EVF switches automatically to DX crop mode and with the Z9 we now have 20fps with a 45MP FX sensor which is double the 10fps of the D500.

So that kind of leaves price which is the big unknown factor at the moment to determine what a single purpose Z90 tele only body would cost versus a Z7III / mini Z9 which would be more suitable as a main camera for me personally with my current Z6 as low light second camera.

I had a similar setup with the 42MP a7RII as a main camera and 12MP a7S as an extreme low light sidekick when I was still two knees deep into Sony and that setup worked brilliantly but the a7RII and now Z6 in combination with D500 glued to the 200-500VR also worked extremely well.

Oh well, time will tell I guess but what is highly likely is that the D500 and 200-500VR will replaced soon by a new tele and it is not what you think it is  :o
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Jan Anne