NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: MEPER on December 06, 2021, 22:23:31
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Are there any rumors on new DX cameras?
I could use a hi-res about 40 MP DX camera (hopefully with IBIS) with same or better ISO performance of Z50 which I have.
If such a camera was announced I think I would go with that rather than a FX camera.
I like the x1.5 factor, the compactness and the nice performance using vintage lenses.
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Ahh, the Z D500?
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Yes, the current Z50 is more or less a "compact" D500?
Now it is time for Nikon to come up with some really "new".....their own patented super-sensors and not just some "old" Sony image sensors :-)
Years back Nikon had own image sensors for their still-cameras?
They do develop sensors?
https://www.nikon.com/news/2021/0303_cmos_01.htm
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Ahh, the Z D500?
I would buy it immediately …
They should be able to build a DX with the pixel density of the CX now, I guess.
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Think diffraction might be an issue with such a high pixel density.
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Think diffraction might be an issue with such a high pixel density.
I don't think so; many Z lenses have flat MTF50 from wide open to around f/8, suggesting that the sensor is limiting the system resolution in this range of apertures. In a diffraction-limited scenario ,wider apertures have higher MTF than mid apertures, which is not happening here.
E.g., https://www.ephotozine.com/article/nikon-nikkor-z-70-200mm-f-2-8-vr-s-review-34960/performance
In an aberration-limited scenario the widest apertures would be lower than mid apertures, which is also not happening with many of the best Z lenses, apart from the corners, so the lenses have potential for much more than they are giving on 45 MP FX. I recall Zeiss noting they measured 400 lpmm from the 135 mm APO Sonnar using high-resolution black and white film. To fully resolve the image from that lens, you'd need a gigapixel sensor. Goto noted that "there is no limit" and that 100 MP would be useful (in a Nikon Owner interview) and I'd expect Nikon to have planned for that in the S-line lens designs.
Of course, while increasing sensor resolution improves the system MTF, to avoid noise from becoming an issue, one needs to have sufficient light.
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Sure, but I don’t think this applies to vintage lenses and cheap DX Zee lenses but might be interesting for birders with the new Z tele lenses.
Also don’t get the use of vintage lenses on DX cameras btw as the good stuff which makes the character of a lens interesting usually happens in the outer areas which is cropped away. Its like the opposite of why I use vintage lenses on the Z6 bit that might be just personal taste.
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The highly regarded 50/1.8S does not seem to out resolve the Z7 sensor at 45MP but diffraction kicks in hard at f/5.6:
https://www.opticallimits.com/nikon_ff/1109-nikkorz5018s?start=1
With slower less sharp zoom lenses there’s probably already an issue and for DX the resolution on the Z7 is only 19MP, with 40MP the diffraction will probably already peak around f/4 which those lenses which some are not even capable of at the long end.
The 70-200 was btw tested on a Z5, not very surprising that it out resolves a 24MP FX sensor :)
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The highly regarded 50/1.8S does not seem to out resolve the Z7 sensor at 45MP but diffraction kicks in hard at f/5.6:
https://www.opticallimits.com/nikon_ff/1109-nikkorz5018s?start=1
The center looks as flat as even the best lenses and from f/1.8 to f/5.6 it's MTF is only slightly lower than the 58/0.95 which according to Nikon is the highest-resolution lens. As the lens and sensor both contribute to the MTF over a wide range of spatial frequencies, no doubt the Z 50/1.8 S will show substantially improved MTF when combined with a 100 MP sensor. Corners are likely to show a bit less improvement but still some.
With slower less sharp zoom lenses there’s probably already an issue
There is no such issue; increasing sensor resolution always improves system MTF or keeps it the same. It never decreases the system MTF, which could indeed be considered a problem if that happened.
and for DX the resolution on the Z7 is only 19MP, with 40MP the diffraction will probably already peak around f/4 which those lenses which some are not even capable of at the long end.
"Peak" is not necessary to achieve, what people shooting with teles are typically looking for is some improvement in detail.
The 70-200 was btw tested on a Z5, not very surprising that it out resolves a 24MP FX sensor :)
Okay, my mistake, but a similar story can be seen on the Z7 at dxomark:
https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-NIKKOR-Z-70-200mm-F28-VR-S-on-Nikon-Z7-versus-Nikon-NIKKOR-Z-58mm-F095-S-NOCT-on-Nikon-Z7__2058_1270_2064_1270
click measurements / sharpness / profiles and then select aperture.
basically very little variation in sharpness across image position or aperture between f/2.8 and f/5.6, and only slightly behind the Noct. These lenses show a lot of potential for improved image detail when a higher-resolution sensor is eventually made available.
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An example of why it's important to go to higher sensor pixel counts is the aliasing that occurs with modern lenses on 45 MP FX sensors; when photographing small birds with the D850 and 500 PF, I've experienced a lot of moire. In my people photography I typically avoid the issue by using faster lenses at wider apertures (such as f/1.4-f/2) or deeply stopped down (in the studio, f/11) where the moire is rarely exhibited, but at mid apertures it's a more frequent issue. To avoid it and to extract maximum (true) detail out of a lens, the sensor should be clearly higher resolution than the lens. Otherwise the issue will pop up at optimum aperture with proper technique (either electronic or electronic front curtain shutter, tripod, fast enough shutter speed or flash). As you increase sensor resolution, when there is no longer any change in the image at optimum aperture, then the sensor is high enough resolution to get correct rendering of the subject. We are far away from that with 45 MP, and lenses keep getting sharper and sharper so the goalpost of aliasing-free imaging keeps being moved (and higher pixel counts will eventually be needed to resolve the issue).
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A lens that can resolve 10MP on a 20MP sensor may be able to resolve 12MP on a 40MP sensor?
A vintage lens that are not able to resolve a hi-res sensor at pixel level will probably still look better than trying to "up-sample" at lower resolution image.
Other sensor formats could also be fun. Like a 16x16mm or 24x24mm square format?
Maybe a circular sensor? .....then 100% freedom was possible for later cropping?
Problem would be lenses that has built-in a "window shade" at the rear.....don't know what that is called. They will not do circular images I assume.
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Well the Z50 is already two years old and overdue for an update :)
I expect an announcement once the bulk of the Z9 pre orders have been shipped, hopefully with an Expeed 7 chip onboard and a little more pixels. The competition sits around 26 and 33MP for a while now so a latest spec sensor should be as clean as the current 20MP sensor.
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Well the Z50 is already two years old and overdue for an update :).
What are the physical requirements of IBIS and Expeed7 and consequences on power draw and battery size? Not sure it would be compatible with the current Z DX form factor, but I’ve not given it a lot of thought.
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Well the Z50 is already two years old and overdue for an update :)
I expect an announcement once the bulk of the Z9 pre orders have been shipped, hopefully with an Expeed 7 chip onboard and a little more pixels. The competition sits around 26 and 33MP for a while now so a latest spec sensor should be as clean as the current 20MP sensor.
It might be more logical for Nikon to introduce a Z70 with more MP's and features like IBIS or a Z90 as Zuccessor to the D500. That would allow Nikon to keep the Z50 as a lower priced entry model which will take over the role of the D3xx/D5xxx DX DSLR cameras on the shelves of Wallmart, Costco, Darty, MediaMarkt etc.
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Makes sense :)
Personally I am going back and forth on what to replace the D500 with, the main reasons I bought one for tele use over an FX DSLR was full frame AF point coverage, DX viewfinder, higher frame rate and finally price.
The first three reasons are no longer applicable as FX Zee cameras have full frame AF coverage, the EVF switches automatically to DX crop mode and with the Z9 we now have 20fps with a 45MP FX sensor which is double the 10fps of the D500.
So that kind of leaves price which is the big unknown factor at the moment to determine what a single purpose Z90 tele only body would cost versus a Z7III / mini Z9 which would be more suitable as a main camera for me personally with my current Z6 as low light second camera.
I had a similar setup with the 42MP a7RII as a main camera and 12MP a7S as an extreme low light sidekick when I was still two knees deep into Sony and that setup worked brilliantly but the a7RII and now Z6 in combination with D500 glued to the 200-500VR also worked extremely well.
Oh well, time will tell I guess but what is highly likely is that the D500 and 200-500VR will replaced soon by a new tele and it is not what you think it is :o
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Why is the Z50 not considered as the "D500 Z model"?
It is the same image sensor?
I think if Nikon plan to come out with a hi-res DX model it will be advertised after some expensive FX models to sell as many of those as possible.
A 42 MP DX with IBIS and a similar ISO performance as Z50 would be nice. But I doubt it will happen in the near future.
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The D500 is a unique camera. When it came (long awaited top-level DX camera after the D300s) out it had the best available AF Module (the one that D5 was using but covering more of the frame due to DX format) and 10 fps with the small battery and without grip. Together with an appropriate telezooom this made her perfect for hiking and travelling and having action and Bird in flight capability at hand. I dont see the Z50 to replace that.
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Why is the Z50 not considered as the "D500 Z model"?
It is the same image sensor?
The D7500 also has the same image sensor, but it doesn't have the AF capabilities of the D500 and it's not equivalent.
The D500 has not just speed (duplicated by the Z50), not just a wide array of AF points (also duplicated, actually improved upon in sheer number but not type) by the Z50, but also tremendous AF tracking ability not matched by the Z50 as well as a professional body built to stand up to rough environments. Given the AF tracking performance of the Z9, I expect that a Z equivalent of the D500 could easily be created if Nikon chose to do so. At this point it's nowhere in sight.
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Plus the D500 has the same pro (lockable) button layout, XQD cardslot, round OVF, lit buttons, en-el15, etc as the D8xx cameras.
The Z50 is the mirrorless counterpart of the D5xxx range with the consumer buttons layout, smaller battery, SD card, etc.
Its very simple, if it doesn’t have a dedicated AF-ON button it aint a pro body :)
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OK!
My Nikon route has been: FE2 -> F4s -> D2X -> D5200 -> Z50
Even that the body of D5200 was far from D2X in terms of "quality" it felt like a big step ahead regarding image quality.
Z50 also a step ahead in image quality even that it has a bit lower resolution. ISO performance is better and AF more accurate.
Z50 has the best AF tracking of those cameras......but I can read that it can be even better :-)
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What I would like to see is a stacked dx sensor (with a lot of the Z9 goodies) in a Z6/7 body somewhere next year. A mini Z9 so to say. Until then my D500 will have to do it.
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What I would like to see is a stacked dx sensor (with a lot of the Z9 goodies) in a Z6/7 body somewhere next year. A mini Z9 so to say.
That with the upcoming 400mm PF lens would be a killer combo for shooting wildlife.
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What I would like to see is a stacked dx sensor (with a lot of the Z9 goodies) in a Z6/7 body somewhere next year. A mini Z9 so to say. Until then my D500 will have to do it.
Ditto. That will be a proper D500 replacement.
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OK!
My Nikon route has been: FE2 -> F4s -> D2X -> D5200 -> Z50
Even that the body of D5200 was far from D2X in terms of "quality" it felt like a big step ahead regarding image quality.
Z50 also a step ahead in image quality even that it has a bit lower resolution. ISO performance is better and AF more accurate.
Z50 has the best AF tracking of those cameras......but I can read that it can be even better :-)
IQ is pretty much the same nowadays across the entire range and auto focus is good enough with the shorter lenses.
There’s currently only a handful of mirrorless cameras which can rival a pro DSLR auto focus reliability with long tele lenses though, the first was the Sony A9 a few years ago and now Nikon and Canon finally released the Z9 and R3 to compete with the Sony A1 and A9II respectively. And even though the Sony A7 series have improved the AF with the MKIV iterations it isn’t close to their top tier cameras and thats what made the D500 so special as it was darn close to the D5 in performance for a lot less money.
So if Nikon repeats the past we should get 90% of the Z9 performance in a smaller and more affordable package, it might take a few more years though.
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There is not enough improvement gained by replacing a D500 with one of the current Zs, except the Z9, and apparently, for better focus with the 1.4x and 2x extenders. Personally, I’m doing a lot of macro with manual lenses so sensor VR on DX could make the difference.
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I realized that Fuji makes a 40MP APS-C camera so should expect Nikon to come out with a similar DX model?
https://thenewcamera.com/fuji-x-h2-camera-to-feature-40mp-sensor/ (https://thenewcamera.com/fuji-x-h2-camera-to-feature-40mp-sensor/)
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That 40mp Fuji is a rumor. Latest rumors on Fujirumors suggest a 26mp sensor for the XH2.
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Sony halted production of their flagship aps-c a6600 camera a few weeks ago, if it is due to lack of parts or sales wasn’t mentioned.
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Sony halted production of their flagship aps-c a6600 camera a few weeks ago, if it is due to lack of parts or sales wasn’t mentioned.
I guess primarily lack of microchips. New cars have between 1.000 and 3.000+ microchips and the car industry is one of many also suffering from delays. I confess to being complicit as I have such a car and invested in ASML stock ::)
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Normally one gets two sets of keys with a new car, but with some makes here in Melbourne only one set is provided - with chip shortages being cited. A bit worrisome I must say.
ASML stock is good to buy Luc - even if they are a major competitor to Nikon in the stepper field.
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That 40mp Fuji is a rumor. Latest rumors on Fujirumors suggest a 26mp sensor for the XH2.
Maybe there will be two as suggested here. A 26 and 40 MP version. But this would be strange.......
https://www.fujirumors.com/breaking-fujifilm-x-h2-with-26-megapixel-coming-2022-and-now-the-big-question-is/ (https://www.fujirumors.com/breaking-fujifilm-x-h2-with-26-megapixel-coming-2022-and-now-the-big-question-is/)
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Interesting comments from Tom Hogan today, he rates a Z90 only 20% likely (partially due to a potential lock of Fuji on the stacked sensor):
https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/which-z-camera-will-be-next.html