Author Topic: Z9 Release Thread  (Read 68715 times)

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2021, 21:51:47 »
Perhaps Nikon is looking at the (near) future technology to enable them to eliminate the mechanical IBIS, which realizes a totally mechanism-free camera.

I don't see why they would leave out so many of the pixels as a forced crop as the user might prefer higher resolution images instead of just throwing them away. You can have digital stabilization as an option, this doesn't justify the waste of sensor area when such a feature is not used.

It could of course be that they decided to use a crop to be able to claim the fastest read time or to achieve 8K 60 or some such specification.

golunvolo

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #106 on: October 31, 2021, 22:11:54 »
I´ll vote for a future spec either not yet implemented (stabilization, extra resolution mode, etc..) or something that was cut-out at the last minute. Easier to keep the sensor as it was than redesign it

Akira

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #107 on: October 31, 2021, 22:41:39 »
I don't see why they would leave out so many of the pixels as a forced crop as the user might prefer higher resolution images instead of just throwing them away. You can have digital stabilization as an option, this doesn't justify the waste of sensor area when such a feature is not used.

It could of course be that they decided to use a crop to be able to claim the fastest read time or to achieve 8K 60 or some such specification.

I´ll vote for a future spec either not yet implemented (stabilization, extra resolution mode, etc..) or something that was cut-out at the last minute. Easier to keep the sensor as it was than redesign it

Even though unusually many pixels are cropped out, the 36x24mm format is retained, which is intriguing.

Another possible feature by reserving many pixels could be a multi-format like the system Panasonic offered with GH1, GH2 and the current GH5S where 3:2, 16:9 or maybe even 21:9 formats utilize full image circle.

If an even wilder guess is allowed, the Z9 sensor may be able to offer even larger ARRI LF format (36.70x25.54mm).  Considering that Z lenses are designed to have a larger image circle with the sensor shift IBIS in mind, they could cover the ARRI LF format?
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Øivind Tøien

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #108 on: October 31, 2021, 22:53:48 »
It could also benefit a possible future astrophotography tracking function similar to that of the Astrotracer in many Pentax models that is time limited by the excessive pixels on the sensor relative to the imaging area. It is worth noting that the Z9 has a max exposure time of 900 sec. well suited for astrophotography.
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chambeshi

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #109 on: November 01, 2021, 11:02:40 »
Thank you very much for sharing this. It will be most interesting to read an expert translation of his commentary. Key words and entire phrases overwhelmed Google translate :-)

This Japanese YouTuber is an retired engineer who apparently had worked for Panasonic until fairly recently.  He whole-heartedly admires the Nikon managers and engineers for having developed technologies incorporated into Z9.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF7-024vtfc

(His narration is Japanese.)

He suspects that the sensor was made by Tower Semiconductor which originally was part of Panasonic.

https://towersemi.com/

Hugh_3170

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #110 on: November 01, 2021, 12:24:47 »
There are a number of links on the internet in recent months suggesting Tower Semiconductor as Nikon's sensor partner for the Z9.

e.g.  https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4562492 , where it is noted that the Z50 and D7500 sensors also come from Tower.
Hugh Gunn

Akira

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2021, 13:07:24 »
Thank you very much for sharing this. It will be most interesting to read an expert translation of his commentary. Key words and entire phrases overwhelmed Google translate :-)

FYI.

Here are the comments in the video I consider essential.

He suspects that the sensor was developed by Tower Semiconductor (formerly called Tower Jazz) based on the technology they had established when they developed their 1” stack BSI sensor.

He calculates that the electronic shutter “curtain” should run only slightly slower than a mechanical 1/8000 shutter unit, which at the same time keeps its rolling shutter effect at almost the same level as that caused by a mechanical 1/8000 shutter.

And the 1/32,000 sec. exposure time is enabled thanks to the fact that an electronic shutter is free from the mechanical instability which makes it difficult to keep the extremely narrow slit for the 1/32,000 sec.

He was impressed by the fact that the brave decision to eliminate the mechanical shutter altogether was made neither by Canon or Sony but by Nikon!  He also points out that the development of a mechanical shutter of this level would have cost extremely high, and its manufacturing process would be extremely complicated, which would raise the production cost even more.  (I think this is part of the reason for the relatively low price of Z9 for a flagship model packed with the game-changing new technology).

He also suspects that the engineers could concentrate on the development of other technologies like the image stabilization because they didn’t need to worry about the development of a new shutter unit.

He also assesses the Expeed 7 processor to be at least comparable to the image processor of Canon’ R3, enabling 8k video, fast read-out of the sensor data and Ai-enforced AF.  The Expeed 7 can take full advantage of the blindingly fast sensor.

The resolution of EVF is 3.69MP which is relatively low, compared to those of the higher-end models of other manufacturers.  He thinks that the resolution could be the highest data rate possible to enable the “dual streaming processing”.

In the video, he doesn’t make an elaborate comparison to Canon R3, the potential direct rival of Z9, because Z9 is worldly different from R3!

Based on his own experience of developing sensors and image processing engines (probably at Panasonic), he believes that the vision of the planning and the designing of Z9 is extremely well focused.  And he highly admires that the cooperation between the managers and the engineers have worked very well.

It is funny that he goes so far as to say that Panasonic should have been the first camera manufacturer ever to develop the technology of eliminating the mechanical shutter, because it was the first company to offer the interchangeable lens mirrorless camera.  He says he would have been happy if only his bosses are like the ones of Nikon.

In the previous videos assessing Z6 and Z7, he pointed out that a flange back of 16mm could be very challenging for the engineers to pack the mechanical shutter unit, UV/IR-cut filter and the IBIS mechanism, compared to Canon and Sony whose flange backs are around 22mm.  But now he admires the decision on the short 16mm flange back, if Nikon envisioned the omission of the shutter unit.

He considers that Z9 is a great proof of Nikon’s solid fundamental technology.  Apparently, He almost compares Nikon having endured severe situation of being left behind Sony and Canon to La Comte de Monte-Cristo.

He also says that such a ground-breaking camera may suffer from the unbalanced performance caused by the unbalanced developing level of technology for each function of the camera.  But he would choose to admire the challenging aspect of Z9 rather than nit-picking the unbalanced performance.
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Akira

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #112 on: November 01, 2021, 13:08:32 »
There are a number of links on the internet in recent months suggesting Tower Semiconductor as Nikon's sensor partner for the Z9.

e.g.  https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4562492 , where it is noted that the Z50 and D7500 sensors also come from Tower.

Hugh, thank you for the follow-up!
"The eye is blind if the mind is absent." - Confucius

"Limitation is inspiration." - Akira

chambeshi

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #113 on: November 01, 2021, 14:02:42 »
Thanks for your swift and perceptive summary  :) :) :)

He makes bold statements and fairly candid about aspects of leadership. Th first reports of unprecedented preorders and first assessments of the specificaitons and launch videos do indeed suggest the Z9 is a major advance in camera technology.
This is major achievement for Nikon's engineers in just over 3 years since they launched the Z System on 23rd August 2018.


FYI.

Here are the comments in the video I consider essential.

He suspects that the sensor was developed by Tower Semiconductor (formerly called Tower Jazz) based on the technology they had established when they developed their 1” stack BSI sensor.

He calculates that the electronic shutter “curtain” should run only slightly slower than a mechanical 1/8000 shutter unit, which at the same time keeps its rolling shutter effect at almost the same level as that caused by a mechanical 1/8000 shutter.

And the 1/32,000 sec. exposure time is enabled thanks to the fact that an electronic shutter is free from the mechanical instability which makes it difficult to keep the extremely narrow slit for the 1/32,000 sec.

He was impressed by the fact that the brave decision to eliminate the mechanical shutter altogether was made neither by Canon or Sony but by Nikon!  He also points out that the development of a mechanical shutter of this level would have cost extremely high, and its manufacturing process would be extremely complicated, which would raise the production cost even more.  (I think this is part of the reason for the relatively low price of Z9 for a flagship model packed with the game-changing new technology).

He also suspects that the engineers could concentrate on the development of other technologies like the image stabilization because they didn’t need to worry about the development of a new shutter unit.

He also assesses the Expeed 7 processor to be at least comparable to the image processor of Canon’ R3, enabling 8k video, fast read-out of the sensor data and Ai-enforced AF.  The Expeed 7 can take full advantage of the blindingly fast sensor.

The resolution of EVF is 3.69MP which is relatively low, compared to those of the higher-end models of other manufacturers.  He thinks that the resolution could be the highest data rate possible to enable the “dual streaming processing”.

In the video, he doesn’t make an elaborate comparison to Canon R3, the potential direct rival of Z9, because Z9 is worldly different from R3!

Based on his own experience of developing sensors and image processing engines (probably at Panasonic), he believes that the vision of the planning and the designing of Z9 is extremely well focused.  And he highly admires that the cooperation between the managers and the engineers have worked very well.

It is funny that he goes so far as to say that Panasonic should have been the first camera manufacturer ever to develop the technology of eliminating the mechanical shutter, because it was the first company to offer the interchangeable lens mirrorless camera.  He says he would have been happy if only his bosses are like the ones of Nikon.

In the previous videos assessing Z6 and Z7, he pointed out that a flange back of 16mm could be very challenging for the engineers to pack the mechanical shutter unit, UV/IR-cut filter and the IBIS mechanism, compared to Canon and Sony whose flange backs are around 22mm.  But now he admires the decision on the short 16mm flange back, if Nikon envisioned the omission of the shutter unit.

He considers that Z9 is a great proof of Nikon’s solid fundamental technology.  Apparently, He almost compares Nikon having endured severe situation of being left behind Sony and Canon to La Comte de Monte-Cristo.

He also says that such a ground-breaking camera may suffer from the unbalanced performance caused by the unbalanced developing level of technology for each function of the camera.  But he would choose to admire the challenging aspect of Z9 rather than nit-picking the unbalanced performance.

longzoom

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #114 on: November 01, 2021, 14:15:33 »
Akira! What should it mean: Unbalanced performance caused by the unbalanced developing level of technology? For each function? Does it mean - underdeveloping of some parts, boards, or functions? Poor assembling of the final product? The camera is made of raw, poorly engineered parts? Would you be so kind to explain, what on Earth he means by saying that? Or what is underdeveloping - my English only? THX in advance!  LZ

golunvolo

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #115 on: November 01, 2021, 14:49:19 »
Akira! What should it mean: Unbalanced performance caused by the unbalanced developing level of technology? For each function? Does it mean - underdeveloping of some parts, boards, or functions? Poor assembling of the final product? The camera is made of raw, poorly engineered parts? Would you be so kind to explain, what on Earth he means by saying that? Or what is underdeveloping - my English only? THX in advance!  LZ

  It may mean different levels of development in sensor read-out, viewfinder, data streaming, autofocus ai, and specially card-writing specs. He can tell much better.

   Akira, thanks a lot for taking the time to share it!

 

Hugh_3170

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #116 on: November 01, 2021, 15:57:49 »
Great summary Akira - your translation skills are much appreciated by all of us.
Hugh Gunn

Bent Hjarbo

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #117 on: November 01, 2021, 15:59:58 »
Great summary Akira - your translation skills are much appreciated by all of us.
Yes!

longzoom

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #118 on: November 01, 2021, 16:05:28 »
  It may mean different levels of development in sensor read-out, viewfinder, data streaming, autofocus ai, and specially card-writing specs. He can tell much better.

  But such things, if any, could slow the camera to an unacceptable level.  The very first test sports movie clearly shows that the machine is working very fast and reliable. As well as rapid stills - just amazing! Hmmm... Thank you!  LZ

bobfriedman

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Re: Z9 Release Thread
« Reply #119 on: November 01, 2021, 16:34:23 »
thank you Akira... So no Global shutter. too bad,.
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