Author Topic: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)  (Read 7976 times)

David H. Hartman

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2021, 09:21:13 »
So using ViewNX2 .. noting that support for VNX2 ceased well before the D850 was released, and even just prior to the D810 too. So technically, ViewNX2 should not support neither the D850, nor the D810 .. let alone any of the Z model Nikons. But it does .. to a degree. This is where the codec comes into the equation.

I'm reading your post as I can. I just read this so I'm going to see about installing VNX2 on my Desktop when I can. I'll download and install Nikon's latest codec first.

Dave


Dave, the camera does not need to be fully supported by ViewNX2 to add IPTC information to the files. It will happily add IPTC info to my D500 nefs which are not supported for editing of course. Just turn off the raw viewing button and use the JPG previews in the nefs. (One flaw is that if an image is a 100% zoom, it will give an error message when moving to the next image unless it is the last one previewed, a minor problem).

Very interesting. This information will help when I get to my desktop.

Thank you,

Dave

Filehorse.com is where I downloaded wlsetup-all.exe (Windows Live Setup).


If you install the NEF codec, VNX2 then uses the codec which allows you to view and edit rating and ITPC data only. Will not allow editing of the NEF file from those 'unsupported' cameras.

Got it!

Dave
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2021, 12:45:46 »
Why it's so stupid is that they used to offer a better alternative in ViewNX2 where the keyword tags were saved in the file and then it just goes with the file everywhere the file goes .. and is searchable via whatever software that can do so.

Why don't they put it in an *.xmp file? I think that is where ON1 Perfect Viewer put tags but I can't run ON1 PV on my desktop due to a bios problem.

I need to flash the BIOS on my desktop but if I brick that computer I'm screwed. I need to build a new desktop and then I'll flash the BIOS on the old one and it should be fine but I can't take a 1 to 1,000 chance of having something go wrong. An eSATA HD attached to my old desktop can crash it at boot up. I also have to use the most basic windows graphics driver or I get the Black Screen of Death.

Back to bed...
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arthurking83

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2021, 02:34:34 »
I do not believe the last version of ViewNX2 is compatible with a D850 or even the D810.

Dave

As said before, ViewNX2 will keyword and rate later model camera NEFs even tho it's officially not supported.
I can confirm what Øivind said that D500 NEFs also work fine(which would be expected)... and luckily he also explained that direct RAW viewing mode needs to be turned off to preview the files too in VNX2, otherwise it simply says unsupported file. Thumbnails work fine tho.

IN my last post I mentioned that it was sometimes flaky in it's operation, but this was my error in what I attempted. In Windows Explorer, with the dialogue box open on the NEF properties, I made mistakes in trying to add(edit) tags/keywording, which I've done many times previously but yesterday, somehow, managed to get myself tangled. It works fine(as I suspected) but I simply clicked onto the wrong area of the tag info in the Properties box. ie. my error.
I was going to reinstall the codec thinking something was wrong, but it wasn't needed.. my error.
Tried again this morning, clicked correctly added another test tag to the D850 NEF.

Theoretically you don't need VNX2 at all, just the codec and Photo Gallery and Windows Explorer to tag images with searchable keywords.
I just find VNX2 to be a bit more useful in some ways. And while having the ability to add/edit keyword tags directly via Windows Explorer is handy, it's clunky compared to both VNX2 and WPG.

I also forgot to mention that if you do edit or add keyword tags via Windows Explorer, it also uses a system of dropdown suggestions tags once the first letter of that keyword is entered. I'll attach a screencap of this process too. Very random and strange suggestion tho .. I typed a 't' to use the term "test tag Windows Explorer", because I've used this term prior on other NEF files, but the results for the suggestions list range from anything to anything, if there is the letter 't' anywhere in the tag line!
WPG is a lot more sensible in that it will suggest any previously used keyword tag line that begins with the letter 't' .. which makes more sense.
I think it's still a handy feature to have in Windows Explorer even tho it's clunky ..


Click the tag line you wanted, click ok .. done.
When you add non archived tag lines, the process needs to be to click Ok, then click apply for it to stick to the NEF file.

AND! ...  it gets me wondering, how/why can very old, long superseded software, using thirdparty intermediary application, add/search/use tag data embedded into a proprietary file format .... yet Nikon can't seem to do it anywhere near as seamlessly in any of their software offerings ... ever!  ::)

I hope that one day NXStudio will come good in some way at least where one has the ability to add keyword data into the raw file directly. This is simply my preference in the way I like to archive my images.
I had hopes for it when I noted the option to embed the edits into the file .. but the process it uses(or trying to use) simply isn't doing it well.

I've been using this system for a good 8 years or so now, never had a real issue with it .. sometimes have a small stumble with the codec not clearly working perfectly, but always fixable with a reinstall of the codec.
But then again, those small stumbles may also have been my fault in that I may have made some small error step or the PC may have had issues(which it does now) .. but anyhow, still works and much farther into officially unsupported territory than I expected it too when I first began using it.
IIRC VNX2 was officially made redundant in 2014 along with any updates/upgrades to CNX2, with the release of CNX-D.
Many cameras later and VNX2 still operates well as a viewer/tagging system for non supported camera NEF files.
I still think VNX2 is the fastest NEF file viewing application available, and by a long shot too. I reckon I've tried them all to be honest.
FSViewer(Fastone) also gets a recommendation(as a viewer only). Also very good to quickly edit jpg files with instructional addendum .. not so much actual pictorial editing tho.
Arthur

David H. Hartman

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2021, 22:44:35 »
... and luckily he also explained that direct RAW viewing mode needs to be turned off to preview the files too in VNX2, otherwise it simply says unsupported file. Thumbnails work fine tho.

I installed the latest Nikon NEF Codec and Installed ViewNX 2 on a Windows 10, HP Laptop. I get a warning when starting VNX2 regarding NEF viewing. Dismiss the warning and continue. I do not find a place in the Options to turn off NEF viewing but note a grays out button above one of the preview pages. The flyover says, "Show RAW image/Preview." I used newly downloaded ViewNX 2 and Nikon Codec installers.

I added three keywords to an NEF and agreed to save these changes. Then I checked in NX Studio and they appear in the XMP/IPCT area. ViewNX 2 did not as expected create an *.nksc file or *.xmp file so the keywords were saved in the NEF in its EXIF/XMP/IPCT area and NX Studio clearly finds them embedded in the NEF.

ViewNX 2 will not install on macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 and Nikon does not offer an NEF Codec to download for macOS.

At home my normal workflow is to upload NEF(s) with Transfer 2 to my Windows 10 PC and then using an ancient program, FileSync.EXE transfer the new NEF(s) to an additional HD and also it my 24" iMAC. FileSync has an easy to use interface and can be used to sync or add (contribute) files and do bitmapped comparisons. With a little knowlage and care one can avoid over-writing a good file with a corrupted one. It need not be used as a blind file sync program. FileSync's Achilles Heal is it's a Windows 95/98 era 32 bit program that is installed with a 16 bit installer. It can be installed on early Windows 7 but not updated Windows 7 or Windows 10.

I can't fathom why Nikon doesn't save *.xmp files with the *.nksc files. The *.nksc files seem to be *.xmp files with proprietary extensions. If a text editor is used to open an *.nksc files there is an XMP version listed near the top.

It is totally STUPID that Nikon didn't offer a way to search for a descriptions and keywords in ViewNX-i and hasn't added such to NX Studio.  :o

Dave


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David H. Hartman

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2021, 23:10:43 »
Adobe Bridge finds the keywords added with ViewNX 2 on this HP laptop.  :)

Dave
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arthurking83

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2021, 23:52:12 »
Sounds like at least you partially on the way.
I don't use any Mac products, but I assume that the now tagged NEFs transferred to the HD and/or Mac are also tagged nicely on the Mac? ... and searchable in some way?

On the Windows PC now: If you install Windows Photo Gallery, (via Windows Live) it will then build a database of the images in the folders you point it too, and then you can search for the tags directly in Windows search.

You should be able to see the tag info directly via Windows Explorer in the properties->details of the NEF, and if you click on the tag area it should allow you to add or edit or whatever.
But I can't recall(just not sure) if you can search for tags in the images directly in Windows/Windows Explorer if you don't have WPG installed. From what I can tell, they seem to share a common database. Again not 100% sure of this.


I would recommend that if you do try WPG, only point it to one copy of an archive, as having multiple copies becomes a bit messy. I have it pointed to my primary store of images which are the only archive I may regularly update with more keyword info, and then sync to other backups of that archive. I don't see the need to have all copies of the archives searchable. As long as they are synced, if the primary archive needs to be replaced I'm sure enough that it will be seamless to do so and not require rebuilding the searchable database.

I can confirm that many metadata capable software will definitely see the embedded ITPC data in the NEFs. For searching tho, they will need to build themselves their own database of keywords/tags AND very likely thumbnails too, so their respective databases will start to inflate to very large proportions.
The Windows/WPG system doesn't do that. Only builds a database of the keywords/tags/ratings contained in the NEF files. Thumbnails used are from the embedded thumbnails contained within the NEFs themselves(hence why the codec is so important).
So, the database that could blow out to 10's of gigabytes in other DAM software, by comparison using this Windows/WPG method, a similarly sized database is only 300-400Mb in size.
While this usually is not important on most desktop computers, on mobile platforms that run smaller storage devices it may be.
One other program I have a specific use for is XnViewMP. It's thumbnail/data databases total to just over 14Gb for the same single 1.5Tb archive of images that WPG and XnView both point too.

For sync matters I can recommend FreeFileSync, once learned it's a very nice way to keep sync between storage devices.

Hope it all works out for you David, and I'll be curious to see if you could test the Windows search method without Windows Photo Gallery installed. It was so long ago that I went through all this I can't recall if they share a database or create separate versions.
I'm sure that if you search for the specific keywords you added via VNX2 whilst in the folder where those images are stored it will find those search terms in the NEF files.
But the Windows Search I refer too is the Desktop search (magnifying glass icon) in the LHS of the toolbar.
Arthur

David H. Hartman

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2021, 00:24:06 »
Sounds like at least you partially on the way.

I'll read this new post when I get back to my MAC.  :D

At my Windows 10 desktop for a few minutes I installed a freshly downloaded ViewNX 2 v2.10.3 (64bit). Added a few keywords. They show up in Windows Explorer and ViewNX-i v1.2.4 (64 bit).

I don't have more time here. Behind me is very old 24" iMAC running El Capitan. When I have more time I see what it will do.

Dave
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Øivind Tøien

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2021, 01:04:50 »
ViewNX 2 did not as expected create an *.nksc file or *.xmp file so the keywords were saved in the NEF in its EXIF/XMP/IPCT area... snip.
Why did you expect this to happen? (Perhaps a printing error? ViewNX 2/CNX2 is from the area before appearance of *.ncsc or *.xmp files with Nikon software.)

Quote
It is totally STUPID that Nikon didn't offer a way to search for a descriptions and keywords in ViewNX-i and hasn't added such to NX Studio.  :o
If we want to influence Nikon on this, the best channel is to contact Nikon technical support and express the opinion there. It will likely take time, but the suggestions may eventually be picked up.

There is already a feature that allows filtration on file names and more which could be expanded to include keywords. On the other hand it does not work across folder trees so I have some doubts whether this could work without creating a separate browser feature. The way Windows Photo Gallery searches down the tree is nice for searching, but confusing for day to day purposes of filtering the files as all files in the tree shows up before a search key is entered.

Edit:
Quote
It is totally STUPID that Nikon didn't offer a way to search for a descriptions and keywords in ViewNX-i and hasn't added such to NX Studio.  :o
Surprise, NX studio is capable of searching for single keywords: First display all files in a folder tree (turn on Browser - "Show images in subfolders of current folder') and then after turning on the filtration icon, enter the keyword in the search box. The bad news is that it is extremely slow even on an SSD and does not appear to do any indexing (?), so at the moment, just searching through my files from the current year is not very usable. And it does not always seem to keep up. (If testing this feature, perhaps just test it on a small folder tree). So what developers need to do is to make this feature more efficient in NX Studio. As it is now it is close to unusable for any wider search. In the example below I searched for 'swan' which is not contained in any folder or file name, but is part of a keyword.
Øivind Tøien

David H. Hartman

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2021, 05:41:16 »
How do I make sense of where a keyword was added (or resides) to/in an NEF? Is there a way to tell if a keyword in embedded in the NEF or riding in an *.nksc or *.xmp sidecar?

Is there a version of ViewNX 2 that runs installs on an older macOS like High Sierra v10.13.6? If so which version?

Dave
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Birna Rørslett

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2021, 11:43:06 »
If a relational database keeps the metadata, all those worries are moot. Just saying ....

What happens if you make a TIF or jpg from your NEF, then want to search for it later? Or track all instances of your NEF(s)? Or find any pictures taken within a randomly deliminated area - or for a given month across all years -- and so on, ad nauseam. Add the constraint that results should be available more or less instantaneously, ie. 1-2 sec at most.

For the record, I add metadata to the database only when an image makes it into the permanent archives. No need for doing so on a folder of work material from a days' shooting.

arthurking83

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2021, 12:51:07 »
Can't help with VNX2 in MacOS, sorry. I've archived many older versions of VNX2 for Windows tho.

How do I make sense of where a keyword was added (or resides) to/in an NEF? Is there a way to tell if a keyword in embedded in the NEF or riding in an *.nksc or *.xmp sidecar?

..... 

Easiest way for keywords in NEF or sidecar files could be via the use of VNX2 and either or both of CNX-D/VNX-i. If you see keywords on an NEF file in VNX2, but not in CNX-D/VNX-i, then in a sidecar. If you see the data in both programs then embedded.

Alternatively if you open the list of NEFs in Windows Explorer in 'details view' and select the 'tags' column active in the window, then I'm 99.999% sure that Windows will read the embedded NEF keyword data, and 99.999% sure it won't read any sidecar file keyword data.

On the topic of VNX2 on MacOS X .. the final version of VNX2 is 2.10.3 which is stated to run on MacOS X 10.10.1 if that means anything to you.
IIRC on Windows, most of the oldest versions of VNX2 install fine on Win10, even though they were slated for install on Win7 or so(ie. 2 generations prior to Win10).

Arthur

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2021, 21:05:03 »
If a relational database keeps the metadata, all those worries are moot. Just saying ....

What happens if you make a TIF or jpg from your NEF, then want to search for it later? Or track all instances of your NEF(s)? Or find any pictures taken within a randomly deliminated area - or for a given month across all years -- and so on, ad nauseam. Add the constraint that results should be available more or less instantaneously, ie. 1-2 sec at most.

For the record, I add metadata to the database only when an image makes it into the permanent archives. No need for doing so on a folder of work material from a days' shooting.

My current workflow is typically ViewNX-i to Capture NX-D to Photoshop CS2 via TIF. In Capture NX-D I "Save all adjustments" to an *.nxd file which is not supported by NX Studio just as Capture NX-D did not read and apply the adjustments saved in NEF files by CaptureNX2.

Any JPG file I create carries with it the name of the NEF it was created from. For example if the NEF had the name D850_DSC9999.NEF then the PSD file will be named D850_DSC9999 v.1.00.psd and the JPG will be named D850_DSC9999 v.1.00.JPG. I might add more to the JPG name to be descriptive but root NEF name will remain. That is the NEF, PSD and JPG will all contain "D850_DSC9999" as a part of their name. I don't keep TIF(s) as a general practice.

Any program that sucks up my photos into a "Library" or "Package" is totally unacceptable. I've messed with a friend's MacBook and backed up her iPhoto library and used a utility to convert the iPhoto library to an Apple Photos library and for get it. I will take care of my own shoe box thank you!

A database would be fine if it leaves my NEF files where it finds them. What happens if I have three almost identical 4T HD with my NEF(s). Can a database DAM be used on multiple HD(s) with out hours of database rebuilding? Does this vary from DAM to DAM?

I backup new NEF(s) to three HD immediately on ingest. One backup to an extra HD in my disktop and one via cat6 cable, a LAN to a computer in the other room. The LAN is Windows to MAC. I don't delete files off my camera's memory cards until I have three copies saved.

Can I use the same DAM program on all three? Probably not. What happens when I move NEF(s) using Windows Explorer or ViewNX-i? Do I have to use the DAM to move files?

My file structure is...

Pictures
   Nikon_D2H
   Nikon_D300s
   Nikon_D800
   Nikon_D850
      D850_2020-12-02_00001
      D850_2020-12-04_00002V
         D850_DSC0065.mp4
      D850_2020-12-10_00003
         D850_DSC0071.NEF
         D850_DSC0072.NEF
         D850_DSC0073.jpg
         D850_DSC0073.NEF
         D850_DSC0073.nxd
         D850_DSC0073.psd
         D850_DSC0074.NEF
         
...and so on. V indicates videos are stored in that sub-folder. The videos and NEF are number sequentially numbered by the camera. I separate videos from NEF(s) using separate folders.

If I understand the DAM, relational database method of descriptions and keywords these methods of locating an NEF are not stored in any file: NEF, TIF, PSD or JPG. If I loose the database then poof! The descriptions and keywords are gone. If I change from one DAM to another do I have to start from scratch tagging my NEF files?

Nikon deserves harsh and very public criticism for their abject failures with software. The Nikon D1 came out in 1999 and they haven't got their "stuff" together yet releasing a half backed NX Studio and calling it a finished v1.0.0. At each step there are compatibly issues with their own software. I don't care if they use an outside company to develop their software. They have an obligation to thier customers. Nikon seems to stupid to realize that each time the F up they loose customers.

* If the NEF has an XMP/IPCT area to save descriptions and why not use it?
* Why isn't the XMP/IPCT data in an *.nksc file saved as clear, ASCII Text so any program can find and use it? It appears Nikon doesn't give a damn!
* If Nikon software can't save the XMP/IPCT in a form available to the OS and other programs then why not save it in an *.XMP file? The *.XMP sidecar could be saved with the NEF in the same folder so it's easy to copy with the NEF when using the OS to manage files and folders. 

How many customers has Nikon lost due to their failure to offer a contiguous and practical method of adding XMP/IPCT data that is reasonably available to the user, the OS and DAM software? It seems to me the only place where descriptions, keywords, GPS, etc. can be placed that one can expect it to be found by the OS and non-Nikon software is in the NEF itself.

Dave who thinks it's well past time for Nikon to give a DAMN about these DAM issues!  :o



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David H. Hartman

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2021, 21:13:16 »
Something strange happened last night to this old MacBook Pro. I found the computer warm, 155 °F  (68  °C) where it is normally about 113 °F (45  °C). I traced it to Adobe Bridge. I had to Force Quit Adobe Bridge and then the temperature dropped to near normal in about one minute. I closed this computer and went to bed. The temperature was normal this morning.

Dave
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Birna Rørslett

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2021, 22:04:05 »
Any DAM system should keep pointers to data sets (objects), not include them in their entirety into a (bloated) DB. If the basic data objects "move", then run a relinking action.

Data is data. Only the user assigns a meaningful distinction, for example. between a class of objects labelled 'images' and another labelled 'books'. The DB operates with objects and their metadata, and relationships.  Thus one could assign GPS information to a book object if desirable. Or to an image object. The nice thing about image files is the ease in which you can extract potentially useful information directly from the original file (from the EXIF/IPTC etc.). However, if you add a scanned image, the required metadata still can be added manually.

Since it is all about data, you can make backups effortlessly. A special case is of course exporting the object descriptor and its metadata to say a text file, which you can import to alternate DAM systems if required.

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Re: Help with DAMN! (Digital Assets Management Now! :0)
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2021, 22:43:54 »
I use Lightroom for my DAM and use the folder structure mainly for ease of back-up. I keep the original camera folders which makes doing PP easier as I can copy the same PP into all the images from a given camera on a shoot. I may use more than one camera at the same time so it is good to keep them in separate folders. Mostly organized by time but I still have my 2019 Hawaii shoot in a dedicated folder. As well note the higher numbers of pix for my Z6 shots - I went to town a couple of times shooting in HC mode. I have already deleted quite a few  of these but many remain.