NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Processing & Publication => Topic started by: David H. Hartman on May 22, 2021, 23:24:11
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There are two discussions running just now that touch on DAM but maybe a general discussion is in order.
I never developed any scheme for DAM. I save NEF files by Camera Model, Date and a running number, e.g. D850_DSC0000.NEF which is nothing more than appending a prefix of D850 or the camera model to the number the camera assigns to my NEF(s). They are saved in folders by date, e.g. D850_2021-mm-dd_9999. The trailing number created by Nikon Transfer 2 is an aid to returning to a folder from a specific series of photographs.
My filing system for NEF(s) is out of hand and increasingly useless: remember the camera model, remember the approximate date, sift through thumbnails.
I'm sure many here are more prolific as photographers and have much better filing systems and are using catalogs and XMP/IPTC data to locate specific photographs. Also many are using GPS data tagging and wonder if that is being accessed to locate photographs and how. My system is basically a digital shoe box under the bed filled with digital negatives.
I hope not too many have such a poor system.
Dave
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I need to know how to make Nikon Transfer 2 save in dated folders. It was fine until I did a computer update, but now for the life of me I can't find the setting to create folders with the date.
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Under the “Primary Destination” tab I set “(x) Create subfolder for each transfer.” I set new name “D850” <Underscore> <Date Transferred> in the form of yyyy-mm-dd then <None> then trailing number in the form of 99999. There is a slider to set the number of digits and you can edit the next number to be used if needed.
This is all in a dialogue box called “Folder Naming.”
The reason for using the YYYY-MM-DD format is a computer will display the folder in ascending order for easy access in Finder or Explorer. If a format of MM-DD-YYYY or DD-MM-YYYY is used it's more difficult to locate the desired folder by date. If there are several folders with one date the running number at the end keeps them in order and saving an *.nxd or *.nka (Save all adjustments) file needs to be in the same folder with the NEF who's adjustments they pertain to.
I hope this makes sense. :)
Dave
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Many thanks.
It’s such an ugly app, especially the settings panels, but you helped me figure it out.
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I have created a logical (to me) folder structure. For finding photos, the least useful information to me is the camera model and then the date the photos were taken. I use the Photo Mechanic 6+ catalogue program, but my underlying folder structure is independent of any software other than the operating system.
Them Hogan has some interesting thoughts https://www.dslrbodies.com/accessories/software-for-nikon-dslrs/software-articles/file-hierarchy.html
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I'm sure many here are more prolific as photographers and have much better filing systems and are using catalogs and XMP/IPTC data to locate specific photographs. Also many are using GPS data tagging and wonder if that is being accessed to locate photographs and how. My system is basically a digital shoe box under the bed filled with digital negatives.
I hope not too many have such a poor system.
Dave
I'm no expert on DAM, but my system is near foolproof. Considering that I'm quite the fool sometimes(always!) and even I can work this stuff out, I'm confident that it's it's near foolproof! ;D
But it's Windows specific, and have no idea how it or if it would work on another OS.
I use the ability to set ITPC data into the NEF file. I've used GPS data on the odd occasion too. But the most important thing about it is even tho it's a wee bit tedious to add it, just adding some info then makes it easier to enhance each image later on making it easier to manage.
So my 'filing' system is similar to you in that I use my camera models as a prefix for each file name, using the camera generated file name(DSCxxxx) and Nikon transfer to rename each session. At every rollover/resetting of the 4 digit number in the camera number, I would use the camera's file naming feature to begin a new string for the number reset .. and that would simply become DSD_xxxx and DSE_xxxx ... etc. Just maintains sequencing of each file(if this ever became an important concept).
And use directories with the format YEAR->Camera model->(optional repeating folders)->date_reason for session|location|subject(or any combination of that info)
I use optional repeating folders for stuff like for example if I was with the brother, or sister, or at home or just taking some test images with some unique gear or whatever. Reason for this is in case a specific person(eg. family member) wanted a photo of ... situation and we couldn't remember a specific date for the photo... etc. etc eg. family christmas gatherings. You know this particular event/or photo happened at a christmas lunch, just cant recall which year or whatever. so easier to
So one of my last camera sessions was camping with the brother with the D800E .. 2020\D800E\Paul\20200608_Teddington_camp\
Paul is the brother(ie. why images exist in the first place), date,(for obvious reasons), Teddington(is a location) is a nice spot to camp, but I've spent just a single day or hour there driving through there too, so camp is also a unique identifier for that instance at Teddington.
Reasoning for this is that sometimes forgetfulness, lack of time, or simply laziness in tagging the images at the time of upload, and also easier to find images as you remember some unique aspect from them if you don't tag them in some way.
I used to(not so much now) occasionally have no time to tag images as I'd be out working/driving for 20 or more hours a day, start at 7am and possibly get home late into the night to start again the next day.
So time was limited that I'd get home, PC on quickly transfer, charge batteries for camera, quickly transfer and forget to add some tagged info(even tho most of the time they'd be tagged with GPS info) get up early next day and possibly do it all again the next day(whilst at work). Work was driving, and nothing to do with photography itself .. the photography may have been an opportunity whilst at work, during or afterwards.
In Transfer(now) I usually at least try to set at least one tagged bit of info, in addition to embedded GPS data.
The reason why at least one bit of tagged info is important(to me) in an image is it's then easier to use better tagging software to complete tagging the images in that set.
So for example, if I didn't have the time, or simply forget too(easy to get distracted with life) with the Teddington camping set, I would set at least one word in the IPTC section in Transfer so that images were subsequently easier to tag with more specific data at a later date .. could be even months later .. and having not tagged most of my early images I occasionally go back and look for those images and tag them(in bulk) too.
Back in the day Microsoft had a terrible set of software(Windows Live) and one piece in that set was Windows Photo Viewer. It's only saving grace is that it can tag raw files(NEFs in my case) directly and not ruin them in any way. It does this on the proviso that you install Nikon's codec for NEFs on the Windows PC. Windows Photo Viewer(and Windows Live software set) ceased support with Windows 7, but still works fine on Win10.
It's near impossible to get untagged files into PhotoViewer, so this is the reason for having at least one keyword inputted with Transfer. Once tagged, PhotoViewer is so much more feature rich compared to Nikon's useless software for tagging files, and remember this refers to raw files only.
That I know of there is no other software that will safely tag raw files embed that data into raw files and allow cross compatibility with almost every other software out there that can do DAM.
They all rely on their own database system, and if you ever require tagged data to be viewed by any(or all) of them at a pinch .. impossible. You need to use another process step to convert one database set into another .. and so on and so forth.
In my opinion .. really stupid!
That is, to have a fully feature rich DAM system whereby you have to rely on one single software for eternity .. for me is not an option.
For NEF files, I found(and yet to find any alternative that simply works) is ViewNX2. I use ITPC tagging in that software which embeds into the NEF, then is searchable by Windows itself too. Windows and Windows PhotoViewer both seem to use the same database when searching for keywords.
Back in Windows PhotoViewer, which I use to tag untagged NEFs, and where you can't directly open untagged images is not quite accurately written. You can, but it's a little tedious in that you have to view all untagged images(of which I currently have about 70 thousands remaining). There is a column of all the tagged info within the database on the LHS of the window, and the top most is labelled untagged. click on this and it lists all untagged files. It doesn't list them by any folder/directory structure .. just shows all thumbnails for all images. In the main window, there are obviously limits as to how many thumbnails can be displayed at any one time, and it can be tedious to do some batch lot jobs.
When I have lots of time and not much to do, I may go back into Photo Viewer and tag some more images .. at my leisure. The main idea is more so to separate this 70K lot of files into easier to manage chunks, so I look for obvious small sets of similar files(sessions) and again just add at least one keyword into that set. smaller sets of images are easier to work with. When I began the process of tagging untagged images I had nearly 200K images to go back too .. and the process seemed impossible to do.
My original DAM software was IDImager which used it's own database system(ie. not compatible with Windows OS itself) and worked quite well for me. I like the simple and usable interface(way back then). Dev stopped developing this program and began a new program .. now called Photo Supreme. I tried it but didn't like it(again back then). I needed to build thumbnails and all manner of additional paraphernalia .. and it's own database size inflated to near 10 Gigabytes on it's own.
For comparison, I see my Windows/Windows Photo Viewer database is approx 100-200 megabytes in size.
I never set out to use Windows Photo Viewer for the purpose of searching for tagged images directly via Windows Search, but this is a bonus to have. All I wanted was an easier way(than any Nikon software at the time) to add tagged data into NEF files so that each NEF file is then searchable by any software(into the future). I'm hoping that one day a software that is no so selfishly programmed that it's developer think that it's the only option available .. to date nothing like this exists .. and I suspect never will. So each image at the moment needs to be tagged and embedded.
embedded GPS data can be handy to have, and (that I've seen) many DAM software have the ability to use this to tag a locale name with that GPS data, but I've yet to see one that is actually 100% accurate with place names. Other may have better experiences with this, but living in Australia, and place names in remote areas are not what most mapping software will lead you to believe they are! Here, they can be hundreds of klms off.
So I mostly don't use GPS data for this ability.
I do occasionally check it out in VNX2 tho. As VNX2 is no longer supported and weblinks change over time, most of the GPS/mapping features no longer works. The only section that does work with respect to location data is keywording via GPS data, and only then it works with Wikipedia. The other option(which IIRC) is linked to an now dead Google method of location pinpointing .. so doesn't work. Wiki can be accurate but not guaranteed to be. Id' guess it's accurate for names in popular locales. tho.
Nikon's NX Studio is currently laughably helpful. On images with embedded GPS data, it doesn't even recognise this fact correctly for use in keywording. It knows that there is GPS data, shows the lat/lon coordinates in the INFO panel. But the tag with GPS data option only works if you use the Map window. Why this is is anyones guess. I rarely use the map window for editing and tagging images.
Apologies for the arduous response. But DAM can be important as your store of images inflates to unamanageable proportions. At least one keyword for each session can be helpful. I replied on software specific databases, and didn't like it. I'm not a pro, and nowadays barely even amature enthusiast any longer .. time limited to get out and take photos. Hope that one day will find this lost time. But I'm still interested, but usually disorganised, hence the need a foolproof method.
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Yes, the inclusion of GPS data is well worth the effort IMHO.
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Back in the day Microsoft had a terrible set of software(Windows Live) and one piece in that set was Windows Photo Viewer.
Might I have tried this "Windows Live" to flip or letter box videos that were shot vertically? I found an install program in my Downloads folder in a "Widows Live Essetials" subfolder named "wlsetup-all.exe". I'll have to have a look at the Windows Photo Viewer module.
I'm going to poor over your post to get ideas.
Dave
I never gave a damn about DAM until lately. Sorry :D
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I’m using the DAM features of Lightroom (Lr), which is constructed around a SQL Light architecture, and gives plenty of possibilities to build Albums (dynamic or static) with the images contained in the Catalog.
The Lr Catalog architecture I’m using is the default one; with a year, date hierarchy. The date, on which the pictures are taken, are the easiest for me to remember, and therefore, the most appropriate index for me.
The image index is build under a simple structure: _xxynnnn i.e. nnnn the sequence number generated by the camera (good for 9’999 images); the xx for the camera used eg D6, 85(0), 61(0).. and the y being incremented every 10’000 pictures. One could say that the old fashioned 8 digit structure is becoming an increasing burden.
Last detail, I’m working in a MacOS environment.
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embedded GPS data can be handy to have, and (that I've seen) many DAM software have the ability to use this to tag a locale name with that GPS data, but I've yet to see one that is actually 100% accurate with place names. Other may have better experiences with this, but living in Australia, and place names in remote areas are not what most mapping software will lead you to believe they are!
With embedded GPS data, I don't need names. I can find the pictures in the map. And with a GPS connected to my cameras, this data is collected automaticly and save me for much works afterwards.
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With embedded GPS data, I don't need names. I can find the pictures in the map. And with a GPS connected to my cameras, this data is collected automaticlyy and save me for much works afterwards.
Positioning data is part of DAM. One angle to access images.
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Reverse map-lookups to find all images within an area is a highly useful tool. I apply it every day, times and times over. My first GPS-enabled camera was the venerable D1X if memory serves, thus "geotagging" has been with me for a very long time. I already had added GPS coordinates to all my scanned images at that time.
Otherwise, the basic idea is any image should have a unique identifier, which all instances derived from the original are "stamped" with. This is not meant to be used for information retrieval as such, only that you through a relational database can easily locate the original or any instance of it. Let the database keep track of the instances, ie. one stores a pointer to the actual storage location not the image itself in the database. All the technical data would be there for automatic extraction via EXIF to be added to the DB, so why bother trying to make a search structure for the data yourself? Put any useful metadata (person names, species ID, ...) into the DB for future searches.
The unique identifier can be as easy to construct as using the precise time of the given capture, down to millisec level. Or you can generate a 128-bit GUID if you wish. Doesn't matter as long a the DB knows.
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A problem for me is I only started embedding GPS into NEF files recently. Worse most are taken at or near the same location so for most of my photographs GPS is not useful. I've only started using Snapbridge with my D850 so all of my digital images going back to 2004 and up to late 2020 have no GPS data.
The date and time of an NEF is slightly more helpful but depends on my memory. I need to note who or what is the subject. Many photographs in the last few years even have the same subject so actions or the subject or descriptions are needed. I have simply ignored rating and tagging my NEF files.
This XMP/IPTC data is a pain. It seems the camera and ViewNX2 stores it in the NEF and it's with or a part of the EXIF data. Then ON1 Perfect Browser stores this data in sidecar files as I recall. Now it appears that ViewNXi and NX Studio stores XMP/IPCT data in *.nksc side car files.
Do I understand that ON1 and Nikon software as well as most other software will find the XMP/IPCT data in the NEF but will be oblivious to XMP/IPCT data stored in side car files other than their own?
It seems to me I'll have to add XMP/IPCT data as I can giving information about the subject and what the subject is doing. If the XMP/IPCT data only list the name of the subject then I'd need a way to scan visually large thumbnails to find a specific image. It's going to be an exercise in archaeology. It's like looking for the Lost City of Atlantis which is probably several kilometers down in the mid Atlantic Ocean and probably has been for nearly 12,000 years.
I might be looking for photographs I took at the time of Melt Water Pulse 1B at the end of the Younger Dryas. :D
Dave Hartman
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Nothing inherently "wrong" about having metadata embedded in the RAW file or sidecars. However, searching tend to be inefficient unless a separate search index is built, and then you are heading towards a DB strategy so why not go the whole way?
Without some kind of universal identificator to each image, how can you tell an instance of say a jpg or TIF derives from a given RAW file? and how shall the original metadata be associated to these instances? If you add more metadata later, how will the new information trickle back to your initial RAW? All of these issues vanish with a relational database.
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All of these issues vanish with a relational database.
...but which one?
Adobe Lightroom is out. I didn't have internet at my home for about 22 months. I was paying for a friend's internet as she could not afford her own. She is quadriplegic. She was taking on line classes or hybrid classes when her internet was shut off. I'd be paying $20.00 (USD) a month for Photoshop and Lightroom. I would not use Lightroom except for DAM. Doesn't Lightroom gather all NEF into some specialized folder/archive like iPhoto did? Sorry I can't think of the term used for the massive iPhoto collection. Then when Apple discontinued iPhoto and replaced it with MAC Photos I had to down load a utility from Apple to convert from iPhoto to Photos.
For a data base to be acceptable to me it would have to catalog the NEF(s) but leave them in the folders and sub folders that I specify with Nikon Transfer 2. It could not rename the files or folders after upload. Ii could not compress them into some archive. They would have to be accessible to Windows Explorer and MAC Finder. I've unpacked my friend's iPhoto special folder. They are in dated sub folders but not in the form of YYYY-MM-DD so they don't sort properly in Finder or Explorer. I think it's MMM-DD-YYYY.
The lack of compatibility between various DAM products may have stopped me last time I thought of this. This all seems like an unkept backyard full of weeds. Some have pretty flowers and have seeds that work their way into your socks and scratch up your legs.
Dave
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What if any software can edit EXIF data in NEF(s)? I have a few NEF(s) with incorrect copy right dates that I would like to correct.
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What if any software can edit EXIF data in NEF(s)? I have a few NEF(s) with incorrect copy right dates that I would like to correct. "
EXIFTool can easily correct dates. Or almost anything else, for that matter.
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Thanks!
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At this stage it is prudent to remind that the DB should just be a back-bone of the DAM, thus one requires a suitable frontend. This frontend would allow the user to interact with the actual files thus these need not be accessed through the OS finder/file manager(s).
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...but which one?
I'm a fan of and use Photo Supreme. it seems overly simplified at first, but i can cater to almost any need in the cataloguing department and (to me) the UI is not getting in the way.
I'm using the PostgrSQL version by the way (now on Win, previously on Mac). It stores and handles more than just image files, also video, text, etc.
I currently have about 225K files catalogued in it and i am never more than a few clicks away from discovering my images again ;D
By the way, i've also tried some Mac only systems, i've tried ACDSee and also iMatch (win only). iMatch is very capable, but i couldn't get used to it. Furthermore i'm shadow running Digikam now.
Good luck in your search! If you'd have more specific questions, please don't hesitate to contact me via DM.
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At this stage it is prudent to remind that the DB should just be a back-bone of the DAM, thus one requires a suitable frontend. This frontend would allow the user to interact with the actual files thus these need not be accessed through the OS finder/file manager(s).
This is also true with Lr: only manipulate (move, delete, create,..) your data through the application. There are easy recovery procedures to fix things, if you screwed up, though. ;)
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This XMP/IPTC data is a pain. It seems the camera and ViewNX2 stores it in the NEF and it's with or a part of the EXIF data. Then ON1 Perfect Browser stores this data in sidecar files as I recall. Now it appears that ViewNXi and NX Studio stores XMP/IPCT data in *.nksc side car files.
Do I understand that ON1 and Nikon software as well as most other software will find the XMP/IPCT data in the NEF but will be oblivious to XMP/IPCT data stored in side car files other than their own?
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Yes to the On1 and Nikon software question. Once the ITPC data is entered into the NEF, eg. via Nikon transfer(which still embeds this data into the NEF) or ViewNX2 ViewNXi, CNX-D .. and pretty much all other software can read that this info is in the relevant section of EXIF data and can use it.
if you use ViewNXi to add keyword info(ie. via this sidecar method of ITPC) no other software(other than CNX-D .. I think .. maybe Studio too, but not sure) will see it.
This is one my dislikes of the sidecar method. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but just like a jpg is a jpg, why can't a keywording/tagging/edit sidecar file just work across any and every software program and Operating System platform.
If you choose to try Photo Viewer, be sure you only install PhotoViewer at the time of install .. and yes it still works in Win10.
Best way to use it too, is to point just one of your image/photo folders to it so it can reference only this one. If you allow it to use any and many folders, it will create annoying duplicates of images and so you inflate it's database for no real gain.
Also remember you need to have the Nikon NEF codec installed onto the Windows PC for it to work properly.
The way I use it: I have two main folders(actually separate drives on my PC, one where I only download the recent images(eg. for the entire year), I call this drive B:\ AND one where I keep a local store of my entire photo image collection, which is my W:\ drive. This entire collection on W drive, is also backed up to two other drives on a NAS box.
In PhotoViewer I only have it pointed to the W drive, which is my entire collection. Don't absolutely need a local drive to store all your images(but I have plenty of drives) and nice to have local access for when (say) the network goes down(stupid switch!) and a bit more speed to boot.
I only use keywording/searching for my own personal needs, ie. just easier to find specific images if I need too. And like I said earlier, Windows search also recognises that this image keyword data base is there, and can also use it .. and because you installed the Nikon NEF codec, you can also add/edit/remove keywords directly via Window Explorer too. That's tedious unless you find a spelling mistake or something like that(easy to do when doing large quantities of keywording. PhotoViewer is much easier to add keywording to images.
It also has a nice feature where it uses facial recognition and can help keyword for images of people. Works well. Not perfectly, just good. 90% accurate I'd guess.
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It appears that Phil Harvey's EXIFTool is for hard core hackers. I use Windows Diskpart when forced but I think I'd rather go back to DOS 2.0 than mess with EXIFTool. Command line apps offer too many ways for one to screw up.
Is there any more human friendly program for editing EXIF data?
Dave who has gotten lazy since moving beyond Windows NT (Neanderthal Technology).
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There is the EXIFToolGUI front end:
https://exiftool.org/forum/index.php?topic=2750.0 (https://exiftool.org/forum/index.php?topic=2750.0)
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Thank you I'll have a look.
Dave
I'm stuck on a MAC for now and the GUI is for Windows. ???
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I just uploaded a dozen or so NEF(s) to this MAC using Nikon Transfer 2 v2.13.7 (c) 2019 with XMP/IPCT data added and an *.nksc file was created for each so no more embedding XMP/IPCT data directly into the NEF while transferred with Nikon Transfer, only sidecars.
Dave
I've come to expect Nikon help files to be helpless. Is that too cynical? Searching for keywords should be simple.
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I have not found it necessary to use Lightroom or any other DAM or cataloging system but I always embed multiple Keywords in the EXIF of all of my NEFs as soon as I download them from the camera.
A quick Search for one of the Keywords immediately lists all files (in either a named Folder or in the entire computer) which contains that Keyword. Viewing that list by date often makes it easier to pinpoint a particular file.
My list of Keywords has been built-up over several decades and is created in a hierarchical system with main Categories supporting sub-categories and those supporting further sub-sub-categories etc.
Applying Keywords to a file (or simultaneously to a batch of selected files) now mostly needs me to check appropriate boxes or to add a new sub-category when needed.
I use Bridge (a File Browser) to do the Search because it provides both thumbnails and also screen-sized Previews which makes it easier to review the listed files which result from a Search.
If I want to add more information concerning details about the subject matter (name of architect or date of construction of a building for example) I will write and add a Description to the EXIF as well.
The keywords and Descriptions can remain with the images even when they are later processed and saved in different formats for various purposes.
I find that embedding Keywords and working this way involves a lot less work and is more efficient than trying to maintain a DAM catalogue across several different computers.
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I use Bridge (a File Browser) to do the Search because it provides both thumbnails and also screen-sized Previews which makes it easier to review the listed files which result from a Search.
If that is Adobe Bridge 2020 unfortunately it crashed my old MacBook Pro three times and I uninstalled it as soon as I could manage too. There is something wrong with the MAC and I never shut it down as it often takes several tries to get it up and running again. It too old to be worth repairing.
I'll try Bridge on a Windows 10 PC.
Dave
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My version of Bridge is the current v.11.
I am using it on a 2020 Mac MBP and also on an ancient FrankenMac Pro 2010 (but I have changed a lot of hardware in my old Mac Pro tower including its Graphics card).
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I added a few keywords and a description to an NEF in ViewNX-i. I can't find a way by reading the menus in ViewNX-i to search folders for images with these keywords. I tried ViewNX-i help, nothing. I've searched online for tutorials and only find the bare essentials regarding ViewNX-i. Given what I've found so far adding keywords to an NEF (well it's sidecar file) is a total waste of time.
If all I have is ViewNX-i, Capture NX-D and finder on this MAC what is the value of adding keywords and or a description?
Dave
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For Keywords to be useful, you do need to use software that allows you to run a Search with special defining selectors.
I don't use Nikon's editing software but I am very surprised (and rather horrified!) if it really offers no way to Search for a word within the metadata?
If you have Bridge, you can use it to Search for a word by any selected category including Keywords in the metadata.
LR and other DAM programs can do the same thing.
This page may help:
https://tagthatphoto.com/making-metadata-work/
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If you have Bridge, you can use it to Search for a word by any selected category including Keywords in the metadata.
LR and other DAM programs can do the same thing.
My old MacBook Pro has a defective logic board. Any program that swiches the graphics from the integrated (in the CPU) to a discrete graphics processor gives me an instant blue screen with vertical black stripes, crash or reboot. My Windows disktop is seven years old and I never bought a GPU but used the i7's integraded graphics.
It looks like my computer are rather lacking for 2021.
Dave
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Keywords likely need to be augmented by opportunity for free-text searching, map and location searches, date ranges, and so on.
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Thanks for the link Ann
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The kind of GPU which you have is becoming rather critical with the current software on the Macs and, although I could replace my graphics card in my very old Mac Pro tower, I don't believe that it is very easy to do (or even if one can do it at all) in MBPs.
I don't know what the situation with GPUs may be on Windows 10 but it may be similar?
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Without GPS data macOS Preview can't access XMP/IPCT data that was embedded into an NEF by the camera. Tools> Get location data> is grayed out. Irfanview on Windows can read the XMP/IPCT data if present. There is no macOS version of Irfanview.
What the hell is so special about GPS data that without it Apple Preview can't or won't read IPCT data? Windows ViewNX-i help only addresses searching for keywords if location data is present and it's about finding key words from wikipedia or similar.
For most of the photographs I've taken in the last few months GPS data is irrelevant. I will want to strip GPS data from most if posting to Flickr or similar. If traveling I'd want GPS data but for now tagging my photos with GPS is just an exercise for when I will want or need it.
Dave
At this point I see no use in adding keywords to NEF files with Nikon software as Nikon software can't search a folder and its subfolders for keywords. It a total waste of time bottle in a proprietary *.nksc sidecar file. This is stupid beyond belief.
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Wait!
Key words and descriptions added with ViewNX-i are embedded in JPG files exported from ViewNX-I and those key words can be searched with macOS High Sierra's Finder! :o
Is this useful? I suppose a small JPG could be exported for a folder full of NEF files with key words?
Preview opens an NEF with a large red, transparent rectangle. Film at eleven...
Dave
Is it me or is this XMP/IPCT keyword thing Epic Stupid?
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I am now on Catalina on the MBP (with Mojave on my tower because that old machine can't be upgraded beyond Mojave) so I probably can't test much for you.
The newer software is becoming more and more dependent on the GPU and ACR is definitely a case in point.
I think that Preview actually displays a Preview from a NEF "as shot" but it can't read edits and Keywords which have been added to the file's xmp in ACR.
You apparently need to convert the NEF to a TIF before you can edit it further in Preview but I don't actually ever use Preview so I don't know much about its capabilities.
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Perhaps adding key words with ViewNX-i or NX Studio to one or two images in a folder then exporting a small JPG of each might be a way of using Finder to locate that folder. Do I understand Windows Explorer can do the same? I'm tying on the MBP at this time.
I have a Windows 10 and MAC El Capitan computer networked now in my garage but the Windows 10 HP laptop I use here in my exile in a friend's house isn't mine. It's a school loaner so I haven't network the HP laptop and this MBP.
Dave
I have a mentally ill man living in my house. He has screwed over his last three landlords according to his daughter and he's doing it again to me. The US Postal Service is aware of him. The postmaster of the local USPS branch knows. He is apparently scamming the California EDD and Virginia Employment Commission. I strongly suspect he is dealing in identity theft. He should serve jail time for what he does to his landlords and prison time for identity theft. If California and Virginia don't care about their losses that's another story. Scores of mailings have come some with ATM cards. He is clearly a felon but the state of California protects him.
I'm ranting; I'll stop now.
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Using the Root Admin and terminal I set these parameters...
sudo pmset -c gpuswitch 0
sudo pmset -b gpuswitch 0
This forces the use of the integrated graphics processor built into the Core i7 CPU and avoids the use of the discrete, high performance GPU that is defective. -c is for on change Charge and -b is for on battery. Now this computer doesn't suddenly crash with a blue screen or reboot.
One more piece of the puzzle is a black screen after the computer goes to sleep and tries to wake. A pair of programs, Amphetamine Enhancer and Amphetamine.app keeps the computer from going to sleep even when the cover is closed.
OK, now I can run iMovie without instantly crashing this MacBook Pro. If I could find Adobe Bridge CS6 I could try Bridge. The latest Bridge is completely free but it won't install on High Sierra as the OS is too old. High Sierra is the latest OS I can install on the early 2011 MBP. All I can find is a 30 day trial for Bridge CS6. :(
Dave
Adobe Bridge look impressive. I read a web page outlining what it can do. I'd like to give it a try.
How To Manage And Organize Your Images With Adobe Bridge (https://www.photoshopessentials.com/basics/what-is-adobe-bridge/)
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That was some very clever hacking!
You wrote: "The latest Bridge is completely free but it won't install on High Sierra as the OS is too old".
Well, it is sort of "free" but the free part of it is just the File Browser (which would be helpful anyway for Keywording) but unless you have either Ps or Lr as well, you wouldn't get access to ACR.
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That was some very clever hacking!
The crashes with the blue screen with black strips looked to me like video memory failure. I know the i7 CPU has integrated graphics and that this MBP has a high performance GPU. Poking about the internet by the hour while bird sitting, kind of like watching a 3 year old child, I found bits and pieces. At this point this MBP is quite usable but rebooting may take 2 or 3 tries. I guess it normally tries to boot on the high performance GPU and then defaults to the integrated i7 graphics.
The problem of the high performance GPU failing is a common problem for this vintage MBP. A friend spent $700.00 to have the logic board replaced on her mid 2012. I guess the GPU is on that logic board. My MBP has only USB-2 ports and High Sierra is the last OS it will accept. It's long in the tooth and not worth spending much on. It has a mid level 250GB SSD, that's good. The keyboard is good and the flat screen display is quite good especially for it's age. It has a Firewire 800 port which is the only way to get data in and out quickly. Well this is what I have.
My normal workflow is Nikon Transfer 2 to ViewNX-i to Capture NX-D to Photoshop CS2 on the Windows 10 box. I use Irfanview to visually scan for photos, Irfanview and memory.
I'm tired and I'm rambling.
Dave
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I just uploaded a dozen or so NEF(s) to this MAC using Nikon Transfer 2 v2.13.7 (c) 2019 with XMP/IPCT data added and an *.nksc file was created for each so no more embedding XMP/IPCT data directly into the NEF while transferred with Nikon Transfer, only sidecars.
Interesting!
My version of Transfer is 2.14.0(on Windows) and it still embeds the IPTC/Keyword data into the NEF.
My guess is that it could (possibly)be a operating system thing! .. or (more likely??) it could have something to do with the codec installed onto the OS.
I've pretty much always installed the latest version of Nikon's codec if I get a newer camera. Have you installed the Nikon NEF codec? Is one available for MacOSes?
[/quote]I added a few keywords and a description to an NEF in ViewNX-i. I can't find a way by reading the menus in ViewNX-i to search folders for images with these keywords. I tried ViewNX-i help, nothing. I've searched online for tutorials and only find the bare essentials regarding ViewNX-i. Given what I've found so far adding keywords to an NEF (well it's sidecar file) is a total waste of time.
If all I have is ViewNX-i, Capture NX-D and finder on this MAC what is the value of adding keywords and or a description?
Dave
I'd say zero.. unless Studio can do something with those same sidecar files in the future. For now tho, nothing.
On Windows(sorry can't help with Mac), I know it works, and it works very well .. until it doesn't work very well! .. a bit more on this later)
If you have a Windows PC that you can work with, I'd say give it a try .. even for your D850 NEFs. Why, is that even with the extremely lowly Nikon ViewNX2, you can still embed ITPC data directly into the NEF. Once in the NEF and saved that way, no matter what software you choose to 'search' with, it will see the keywording you just added.
I'm going to upload some screenshots to show you how easy and simple it all is.
I mentioned before that you need the NEF codec from Nikon. Once installed(DON'T!!! use the Windows/Microsoft version of "all camera codecs" .. it doesn't work. You only need the version of Nikon's latest CODEC for your camera. If you require later version of the codec for later model cameras, then that's your choice too, and it still works. Later codec works on earlier cameras.
eg. I don't have a D850 camera, so don't need it. But for the sake of testing, I still download(not always install tho) this codec. Small file, so all archived for when things may go bang! .. and they can.
So using ViewNX2 .. noting that support for VNX2 ceased well before the D850 was released, and even just prior to the D810 too. So technically, ViewNX2 should not support neither the D850, nor the D810 .. let alone any of the Z model Nikons. But it does .. to a degree. This is where the codec comes into the equation.
If you install the NEF codec, VNX2 then uses the codec which allows you to view and edit rating and ITPC data only. Will not allow editing of the NEF file from those 'unsupported' cameras.
(this is not a worry for me as VNX2 is a terrible 'editor' for images. Far too basic, and pretty much useless. I wouldn't use it on JPGS either. All it offers as an advantage is that it's the easiest software to batch edit very simple stuff like WB or Picture Control or whatever, and the handiest software to add keyword and rating data INTO and NEF(if you prefer it that way).
I have rated and added Keyword data into cameras like the D850 and Z6 and Z7, not any cameras later than those two yet, but I suspect that if the latest codec was installed into Windows, it will still work.
So I download test files(of cameras I don't own) and test to see how it works .. and it works. If you try any of this, don't forget to save the file too.
I've never found any Nikon software to search for keyword data. Adding Keyword data via VNX2 is trivial, but has to be said can sometimes be annoying with a small bug that I cannot seem to eliminate. Ratings also easy to do .. then save NEF.
(http://members.optushome.com.au/aking83/VNX2-D850_keyword%20test.jpg)
Note: the D850 NEF was downloaded from DPR. screencap of VNX2 with the D850 file open in NEF view mode. Note on the right hand side the keyword data added into ITPC area. The top three keywords were added when the D850 was a new model and DPR had the sample files for download .. however many years ago that was. The fourth keyword tag was added this morning as I typed this reply .. just to be sure it still works(which it does).
(http://members.optushome.com.au/aking83/VNX2-D850_keyword%20test-PhotoGallery.jpg)
This is the sometimes useless, although most often useful Windows Photo Gallery.
Note the LHS column where each keyword is listed. You can also 'search' for a keyword, but I normally don't. My searches are 99.9% directly in Windows searching facilities(depending on what I have open at the time. That is, if the question is posed I simply use the desktop search tool in the toolbar, and it locates any file with that search term.
If I have a Windows Explorer(same as Finder I guess) I type that into the upper RHS corner search bar in the file explorer window for the folder I need to search(more focused searching).
In Photo Gallery(WPG) it's there on the LHS column. The RHS column keyword is where you add or edit the tag data already in the file. The predictive component of this add/edit section is nice to have access too, especially if you do similar but slightly different tags.
The beauty of the 'system' is that between these Windows software(s) and Nikon's software(that actually helps in some way) is that there is a small degree of symbiosis. I can 'group' some tag data using the /(forward slash) separator in VNX2, which translates into a sub category tag data system in WPG.
eg. I have many sets of old manual lenses that I like to keep track of. Could be added into EXIF using some exif altering tools(EXIFtoolGUI) can work OK. But I prefer tag data. SO I have a header called Lens then a separator(/) and then the lens name type. in VNX2 Lens/Amar 105mm f4.5 translates in WPG as Lens heading with the sub category of Amar 105mm f4.5. Don't use the forward slash for the aperture value(ie. f4.5 not f/4.5) otherwise it creates a sub category again with the value 4.5 in WPG(and by extension Windows Search).
If you note on the RHS in WPG, it allows face regognition. If you do people photography(which I don't!) this could be extrememly handy. Once it's learned various aspects of a persons face, adding that person as tagged data is made so much easier using WPG, instead of VNX2. It's not perfect, it recognises dolls, and all manner of weird stuff too(as in the screencap the spiral patter in the DPR sample image!) but easy to ignore as well .. so not bothersome.
I think I've now tagged 100% of my images of my kids using this feature .. which I think would have taken me two lifetimes!.
It's not all roses tho, and it does sometimes skips a beat or two. Usually VNX2 and WPG work well together, and once tagged searching is also fluent and easy in Windows Search. But Windows itself allows adding or editing of tagged data in the NEF file .. again remember this is due to the NEF codec! without it, none of this works.
For some odd reason tho, I cannot add or edit any D850 NEF directly via Windows. Right click the NEF, select properties and open the details tab. You see the tagged data in the images, and normally you click on it, it will highlight blue and allows you to add/remove/edit the keywords and or ratings(stars).
I can't get it to do so on the D850's, but no problem on D810s, or Z7 NEF files that I have in my test folder.
In saying that tho, I do have some issues on this PC(random rebooting/crashing... even at BIOS stage) I think it may be the Nvidia GPU .. not sure.. I'm very close to needing a freshen up anyhow after 7 or so years of bloating it to high heaven! So Will. I know it has nothing to do with the codec with respect to either VNX2(which reminder shouldn't be able to even display D850 NEF files!!) nor related to WPG and the codec. Also not vitally important to have as a feature, but as you add tag data to bulk images in day long sessions, an typo or two is bound to rear it's ugly head every now and then. The ability to edit in Windows Explorer is just a little bit handy.
Like Ann said, it's horrifying(actually worse! .. actually supremely stupid IMO) that Nikon offer the ability to add keywording, but then you can literally do nothing else with it!(other than it's added into a jpg version of the file).
So they assume that the jpg is actually more valuable or important than the NEF file for some reason!
If this is not one of the clearest definitions of stupid! .. I can't imagine what else could be.
Why it's so stupid is that they used to offer a better alternative in ViewNX2 where the keyword tags were saved in the file and then it just goes with the file everywhere the file goes .. and is searchable via whatever software that can do so.
In my case, adding that last tag in the D850 test file via VNX2, then opening Windows Photo Gallery it was immediately indexed into it's database store and I can search for it.
Having the tagged info in a useless sidecar file, that no other software can actually use????? :o
I think I've wasted and bored you to exhaustion by now .. but I hope I explained to a reasonable degree.
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Interesting!
My version of Transfer is 2.14.0(on Windows) and it still embeds the IPTC/Keyword data into the NEF.
My guess is that it could (possibly)be a operating system thing! .. or (more likely??) it could have something to do with the codec installed onto the OS.
I've pretty much always installed the latest version of Nikon's codec if I get a newer camera. Have you installed the Nikon NEF codec? Is one available for MacOSes?
I'll have to make sure I've got the latest Nikon codec installed on both Win10 and macOS High Sierra 10.13.6.
Dave
I like using italics. :)
I'll respond to more later. I have cockatoo to feed...
It appears that Nikon doesn't offer a codec update for macOS. :o :o :o
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Why, is that even with the extremely lowly Nikon ViewNX2, you can still embed ITPC data directly into the NEF. Once in the NEF and saved that way, no matter what software you choose to 'search' with, it will see the keywording you just added.
I do not believe the last version of ViewNX2 is compatible with a D850 or even the D810.
Dave
Views embedded JPG, will add keywors but will not develop RAW data (grayed out). More in other's replies below.
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Dave, the camera does not need to be fully supported by ViewNX2 to add IPTC information to the files. It will happily add IPTC info to my D500 nefs which are not supported for editing of course. Just turn off the raw viewing button and use the JPG previews in the nefs. (One flaw is that if an image is a 100% zoom, it will give an error message when moving to the next image unless it is the last one previewed, a minor problem).
Thanks for information about the Windows Photo Gallery (combined with NEF codec that I already had) in this thread. While not available from MS any longer I found it here: https://www.filehorse.com/download-windows-photo-gallery/download/ (https://www.filehorse.com/download-windows-photo-gallery/download/) Site looks reasonably safe to me.
Not bad at all, there are quite a few searching options. One missing is the color tags, which I use among other things to tag IR images (red of course, however text search works well enough for that) and sometimes distinguishing among cameras, but that is mostly for sorting at editing stage in CNX-D. Another item I did not see is the ability to select camera based on EXIF. As I have been thinking it is redundant I usually do not include that in the keywords. I am still starting to feel that all that keywording over the years is finally paying off...
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So using ViewNX2 .. noting that support for VNX2 ceased well before the D850 was released, and even just prior to the D810 too. So technically, ViewNX2 should not support neither the D850, nor the D810 .. let alone any of the Z model Nikons. But it does .. to a degree. This is where the codec comes into the equation.
I'm reading your post as I can. I just read this so I'm going to see about installing VNX2 on my Desktop when I can. I'll download and install Nikon's latest codec first.
Dave
Dave, the camera does not need to be fully supported by ViewNX2 to add IPTC information to the files. It will happily add IPTC info to my D500 nefs which are not supported for editing of course. Just turn off the raw viewing button and use the JPG previews in the nefs. (One flaw is that if an image is a 100% zoom, it will give an error message when moving to the next image unless it is the last one previewed, a minor problem).
Very interesting. This information will help when I get to my desktop.
Thank you,
Dave
Filehorse.com is where I downloaded wlsetup-all.exe (Windows Live Setup).
If you install the NEF codec, VNX2 then uses the codec which allows you to view and edit rating and ITPC data only. Will not allow editing of the NEF file from those 'unsupported' cameras.
Got it!
Dave
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Why it's so stupid is that they used to offer a better alternative in ViewNX2 where the keyword tags were saved in the file and then it just goes with the file everywhere the file goes .. and is searchable via whatever software that can do so.
Why don't they put it in an *.xmp file? I think that is where ON1 Perfect Viewer put tags but I can't run ON1 PV on my desktop due to a bios problem.
I need to flash the BIOS on my desktop but if I brick that computer I'm screwed. I need to build a new desktop and then I'll flash the BIOS on the old one and it should be fine but I can't take a 1 to 1,000 chance of having something go wrong. An eSATA HD attached to my old desktop can crash it at boot up. I also have to use the most basic windows graphics driver or I get the Black Screen of Death.
Back to bed...
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I do not believe the last version of ViewNX2 is compatible with a D850 or even the D810.
Dave
As said before, ViewNX2 will keyword and rate later model camera NEFs even tho it's officially not supported.
I can confirm what Øivind said that D500 NEFs also work fine(which would be expected)... and luckily he also explained that direct RAW viewing mode needs to be turned off to preview the files too in VNX2, otherwise it simply says unsupported file. Thumbnails work fine tho.
IN my last post I mentioned that it was sometimes flaky in it's operation, but this was my error in what I attempted. In Windows Explorer, with the dialogue box open on the NEF properties, I made mistakes in trying to add(edit) tags/keywording, which I've done many times previously but yesterday, somehow, managed to get myself tangled. It works fine(as I suspected) but I simply clicked onto the wrong area of the tag info in the Properties box. ie. my error.
I was going to reinstall the codec thinking something was wrong, but it wasn't needed.. my error.
Tried again this morning, clicked correctly added another test tag to the D850 NEF.
Theoretically you don't need VNX2 at all, just the codec and Photo Gallery and Windows Explorer to tag images with searchable keywords.
I just find VNX2 to be a bit more useful in some ways. And while having the ability to add/edit keyword tags directly via Windows Explorer is handy, it's clunky compared to both VNX2 and WPG.
I also forgot to mention that if you do edit or add keyword tags via Windows Explorer, it also uses a system of dropdown suggestions tags once the first letter of that keyword is entered. I'll attach a screencap of this process too. Very random and strange suggestion tho .. I typed a 't' to use the term "test tag Windows Explorer", because I've used this term prior on other NEF files, but the results for the suggestions list range from anything to anything, if there is the letter 't' anywhere in the tag line!
WPG is a lot more sensible in that it will suggest any previously used keyword tag line that begins with the letter 't' .. which makes more sense.
I think it's still a handy feature to have in Windows Explorer even tho it's clunky ..
(http://members.optushome.com.au/aking83/VNX2-D850_keyword%20test-Windows%20Explorer.jpg)
Click the tag line you wanted, click ok .. done.
When you add non archived tag lines, the process needs to be to click Ok, then click apply for it to stick to the NEF file.
AND! ... it gets me wondering, how/why can very old, long superseded software, using thirdparty intermediary application, add/search/use tag data embedded into a proprietary file format .... yet Nikon can't seem to do it anywhere near as seamlessly in any of their software offerings ... ever! ::)
I hope that one day NXStudio will come good in some way at least where one has the ability to add keyword data into the raw file directly. This is simply my preference in the way I like to archive my images.
I had hopes for it when I noted the option to embed the edits into the file .. but the process it uses(or trying to use) simply isn't doing it well.
I've been using this system for a good 8 years or so now, never had a real issue with it .. sometimes have a small stumble with the codec not clearly working perfectly, but always fixable with a reinstall of the codec.
But then again, those small stumbles may also have been my fault in that I may have made some small error step or the PC may have had issues(which it does now) .. but anyhow, still works and much farther into officially unsupported territory than I expected it too when I first began using it.
IIRC VNX2 was officially made redundant in 2014 along with any updates/upgrades to CNX2, with the release of CNX-D.
Many cameras later and VNX2 still operates well as a viewer/tagging system for non supported camera NEF files.
I still think VNX2 is the fastest NEF file viewing application available, and by a long shot too. I reckon I've tried them all to be honest.
FSViewer(Fastone) also gets a recommendation(as a viewer only). Also very good to quickly edit jpg files with instructional addendum .. not so much actual pictorial editing tho.
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... and luckily he also explained that direct RAW viewing mode needs to be turned off to preview the files too in VNX2, otherwise it simply says unsupported file. Thumbnails work fine tho.
I installed the latest Nikon NEF Codec and Installed ViewNX 2 on a Windows 10, HP Laptop. I get a warning when starting VNX2 regarding NEF viewing. Dismiss the warning and continue. I do not find a place in the Options to turn off NEF viewing but note a grays out button above one of the preview pages. The flyover says, "Show RAW image/Preview." I used newly downloaded ViewNX 2 and Nikon Codec installers.
I added three keywords to an NEF and agreed to save these changes. Then I checked in NX Studio and they appear in the XMP/IPCT area. ViewNX 2 did not as expected create an *.nksc file or *.xmp file so the keywords were saved in the NEF in its EXIF/XMP/IPCT area and NX Studio clearly finds them embedded in the NEF.
ViewNX 2 will not install on macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 and Nikon does not offer an NEF Codec to download for macOS.
At home my normal workflow is to upload NEF(s) with Transfer 2 to my Windows 10 PC and then using an ancient program, FileSync.EXE transfer the new NEF(s) to an additional HD and also it my 24" iMAC. FileSync has an easy to use interface and can be used to sync or add (contribute) files and do bitmapped comparisons. With a little knowlage and care one can avoid over-writing a good file with a corrupted one. It need not be used as a blind file sync program. FileSync's Achilles Heal is it's a Windows 95/98 era 32 bit program that is installed with a 16 bit installer. It can be installed on early Windows 7 but not updated Windows 7 or Windows 10.
I can't fathom why Nikon doesn't save *.xmp files with the *.nksc files. The *.nksc files seem to be *.xmp files with proprietary extensions. If a text editor is used to open an *.nksc files there is an XMP version listed near the top.
It is totally STUPID that Nikon didn't offer a way to search for a descriptions and keywords in ViewNX-i and hasn't added such to NX Studio. :o
Dave
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Adobe Bridge finds the keywords added with ViewNX 2 on this HP laptop. :)
Dave
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Sounds like at least you partially on the way.
I don't use any Mac products, but I assume that the now tagged NEFs transferred to the HD and/or Mac are also tagged nicely on the Mac? ... and searchable in some way?
On the Windows PC now: If you install Windows Photo Gallery, (via Windows Live) it will then build a database of the images in the folders you point it too, and then you can search for the tags directly in Windows search.
You should be able to see the tag info directly via Windows Explorer in the properties->details of the NEF, and if you click on the tag area it should allow you to add or edit or whatever.
But I can't recall(just not sure) if you can search for tags in the images directly in Windows/Windows Explorer if you don't have WPG installed. From what I can tell, they seem to share a common database. Again not 100% sure of this.
I would recommend that if you do try WPG, only point it to one copy of an archive, as having multiple copies becomes a bit messy. I have it pointed to my primary store of images which are the only archive I may regularly update with more keyword info, and then sync to other backups of that archive. I don't see the need to have all copies of the archives searchable. As long as they are synced, if the primary archive needs to be replaced I'm sure enough that it will be seamless to do so and not require rebuilding the searchable database.
I can confirm that many metadata capable software will definitely see the embedded ITPC data in the NEFs. For searching tho, they will need to build themselves their own database of keywords/tags AND very likely thumbnails too, so their respective databases will start to inflate to very large proportions.
The Windows/WPG system doesn't do that. Only builds a database of the keywords/tags/ratings contained in the NEF files. Thumbnails used are from the embedded thumbnails contained within the NEFs themselves(hence why the codec is so important).
So, the database that could blow out to 10's of gigabytes in other DAM software, by comparison using this Windows/WPG method, a similarly sized database is only 300-400Mb in size.
While this usually is not important on most desktop computers, on mobile platforms that run smaller storage devices it may be.
One other program I have a specific use for is XnViewMP. It's thumbnail/data databases total to just over 14Gb for the same single 1.5Tb archive of images that WPG and XnView both point too.
For sync matters I can recommend FreeFileSync, once learned it's a very nice way to keep sync between storage devices.
Hope it all works out for you David, and I'll be curious to see if you could test the Windows search method without Windows Photo Gallery installed. It was so long ago that I went through all this I can't recall if they share a database or create separate versions.
I'm sure that if you search for the specific keywords you added via VNX2 whilst in the folder where those images are stored it will find those search terms in the NEF files.
But the Windows Search I refer too is the Desktop search (magnifying glass icon) in the LHS of the toolbar.
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Sounds like at least you partially on the way.
I'll read this new post when I get back to my MAC. :D
At my Windows 10 desktop for a few minutes I installed a freshly downloaded ViewNX 2 v2.10.3 (64bit). Added a few keywords. They show up in Windows Explorer and ViewNX-i v1.2.4 (64 bit).
I don't have more time here. Behind me is very old 24" iMAC running El Capitan. When I have more time I see what it will do.
Dave
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ViewNX 2 did not as expected create an *.nksc file or *.xmp file so the keywords were saved in the NEF in its EXIF/XMP/IPCT area... snip.
Why did you expect this to happen? (Perhaps a printing error? ViewNX 2/CNX2 is from the area before appearance of *.ncsc or *.xmp files with Nikon software.)
It is totally STUPID that Nikon didn't offer a way to search for a descriptions and keywords in ViewNX-i and hasn't added such to NX Studio. :o
If we want to influence Nikon on this, the best channel is to contact Nikon technical support and express the opinion there. It will likely take time, but the suggestions may eventually be picked up.
There is already a feature that allows filtration on file names and more which could be expanded to include keywords. On the other hand it does not work across folder trees so I have some doubts whether this could work without creating a separate browser feature. The way Windows Photo Gallery searches down the tree is nice for searching, but confusing for day to day purposes of filtering the files as all files in the tree shows up before a search key is entered.
Edit:
It is totally STUPID that Nikon didn't offer a way to search for a descriptions and keywords in ViewNX-i and hasn't added such to NX Studio. :o
Surprise, NX studio is capable of searching for single keywords: First display all files in a folder tree (turn on Browser - "Show images in subfolders of current folder') and then after turning on the filtration icon, enter the keyword in the search box. The bad news is that it is extremely slow even on an SSD and does not appear to do any indexing (?), so at the moment, just searching through my files from the current year is not very usable. And it does not always seem to keep up. (If testing this feature, perhaps just test it on a small folder tree). So what developers need to do is to make this feature more efficient in NX Studio. As it is now it is close to unusable for any wider search. In the example below I searched for 'swan' which is not contained in any folder or file name, but is part of a keyword.
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How do I make sense of where a keyword was added (or resides) to/in an NEF? Is there a way to tell if a keyword in embedded in the NEF or riding in an *.nksc or *.xmp sidecar?
Is there a version of ViewNX 2 that runs installs on an older macOS like High Sierra v10.13.6? If so which version?
Dave
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If a relational database keeps the metadata, all those worries are moot. Just saying ....
What happens if you make a TIF or jpg from your NEF, then want to search for it later? Or track all instances of your NEF(s)? Or find any pictures taken within a randomly deliminated area - or for a given month across all years -- and so on, ad nauseam. Add the constraint that results should be available more or less instantaneously, ie. 1-2 sec at most.
For the record, I add metadata to the database only when an image makes it into the permanent archives. No need for doing so on a folder of work material from a days' shooting.
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Can't help with VNX2 in MacOS, sorry. I've archived many older versions of VNX2 for Windows tho.
How do I make sense of where a keyword was added (or resides) to/in an NEF? Is there a way to tell if a keyword in embedded in the NEF or riding in an *.nksc or *.xmp sidecar?
.....
Easiest way for keywords in NEF or sidecar files could be via the use of VNX2 and either or both of CNX-D/VNX-i. If you see keywords on an NEF file in VNX2, but not in CNX-D/VNX-i, then in a sidecar. If you see the data in both programs then embedded.
Alternatively if you open the list of NEFs in Windows Explorer in 'details view' and select the 'tags' column active in the window, then I'm 99.999% sure that Windows will read the embedded NEF keyword data, and 99.999% sure it won't read any sidecar file keyword data.
On the topic of VNX2 on MacOS X .. the final version of VNX2 is 2.10.3 which is stated to run on MacOS X 10.10.1 if that means anything to you.
IIRC on Windows, most of the oldest versions of VNX2 install fine on Win10, even though they were slated for install on Win7 or so(ie. 2 generations prior to Win10).
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If a relational database keeps the metadata, all those worries are moot. Just saying ....
What happens if you make a TIF or jpg from your NEF, then want to search for it later? Or track all instances of your NEF(s)? Or find any pictures taken within a randomly deliminated area - or for a given month across all years -- and so on, ad nauseam. Add the constraint that results should be available more or less instantaneously, ie. 1-2 sec at most.
For the record, I add metadata to the database only when an image makes it into the permanent archives. No need for doing so on a folder of work material from a days' shooting.
My current workflow is typically ViewNX-i to Capture NX-D to Photoshop CS2 via TIF. In Capture NX-D I "Save all adjustments" to an *.nxd file which is not supported by NX Studio just as Capture NX-D did not read and apply the adjustments saved in NEF files by CaptureNX2.
Any JPG file I create carries with it the name of the NEF it was created from. For example if the NEF had the name D850_DSC9999.NEF then the PSD file will be named D850_DSC9999 v.1.00.psd and the JPG will be named D850_DSC9999 v.1.00.JPG. I might add more to the JPG name to be descriptive but root NEF name will remain. That is the NEF, PSD and JPG will all contain "D850_DSC9999" as a part of their name. I don't keep TIF(s) as a general practice.
Any program that sucks up my photos into a "Library" or "Package" is totally unacceptable. I've messed with a friend's MacBook and backed up her iPhoto library and used a utility to convert the iPhoto library to an Apple Photos library and for get it. I will take care of my own shoe box thank you!
A database would be fine if it leaves my NEF files where it finds them. What happens if I have three almost identical 4T HD with my NEF(s). Can a database DAM be used on multiple HD(s) with out hours of database rebuilding? Does this vary from DAM to DAM?
I backup new NEF(s) to three HD immediately on ingest. One backup to an extra HD in my disktop and one via cat6 cable, a LAN to a computer in the other room. The LAN is Windows to MAC. I don't delete files off my camera's memory cards until I have three copies saved.
Can I use the same DAM program on all three? Probably not. What happens when I move NEF(s) using Windows Explorer or ViewNX-i? Do I have to use the DAM to move files?
My file structure is...
Pictures
Nikon_D2H
Nikon_D300s
Nikon_D800
Nikon_D850
D850_2020-12-02_00001
D850_2020-12-04_00002V
D850_DSC0065.mp4
D850_2020-12-10_00003
D850_DSC0071.NEF
D850_DSC0072.NEF
D850_DSC0073.jpg
D850_DSC0073.NEF
D850_DSC0073.nxd
D850_DSC0073.psd
D850_DSC0074.NEF
...and so on. V indicates videos are stored in that sub-folder. The videos and NEF are number sequentially numbered by the camera. I separate videos from NEF(s) using separate folders.
If I understand the DAM, relational database method of descriptions and keywords these methods of locating an NEF are not stored in any file: NEF, TIF, PSD or JPG. If I loose the database then poof! The descriptions and keywords are gone. If I change from one DAM to another do I have to start from scratch tagging my NEF files?
Nikon deserves harsh and very public criticism for their abject failures with software. The Nikon D1 came out in 1999 and they haven't got their "stuff" together yet releasing a half backed NX Studio and calling it a finished v1.0.0. At each step there are compatibly issues with their own software. I don't care if they use an outside company to develop their software. They have an obligation to thier customers. Nikon seems to stupid to realize that each time the F up they loose customers.
* If the NEF has an XMP/IPCT area to save descriptions and why not use it?
* Why isn't the XMP/IPCT data in an *.nksc file saved as clear, ASCII Text so any program can find and use it? It appears Nikon doesn't give a damn!
* If Nikon software can't save the XMP/IPCT in a form available to the OS and other programs then why not save it in an *.XMP file? The *.XMP sidecar could be saved with the NEF in the same folder so it's easy to copy with the NEF when using the OS to manage files and folders.
How many customers has Nikon lost due to their failure to offer a contiguous and practical method of adding XMP/IPCT data that is reasonably available to the user, the OS and DAM software? It seems to me the only place where descriptions, keywords, GPS, etc. can be placed that one can expect it to be found by the OS and non-Nikon software is in the NEF itself.
Dave who thinks it's well past time for Nikon to give a DAMN about these DAM issues! :o
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Something strange happened last night to this old MacBook Pro. I found the computer warm, 155 °F (68 °C) where it is normally about 113 °F (45 °C). I traced it to Adobe Bridge. I had to Force Quit Adobe Bridge and then the temperature dropped to near normal in about one minute. I closed this computer and went to bed. The temperature was normal this morning.
Dave
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Any DAM system should keep pointers to data sets (objects), not include them in their entirety into a (bloated) DB. If the basic data objects "move", then run a relinking action.
Data is data. Only the user assigns a meaningful distinction, for example. between a class of objects labelled 'images' and another labelled 'books'. The DB operates with objects and their metadata, and relationships. Thus one could assign GPS information to a book object if desirable. Or to an image object. The nice thing about image files is the ease in which you can extract potentially useful information directly from the original file (from the EXIF/IPTC etc.). However, if you add a scanned image, the required metadata still can be added manually.
Since it is all about data, you can make backups effortlessly. A special case is of course exporting the object descriptor and its metadata to say a text file, which you can import to alternate DAM systems if required.
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I use Lightroom for my DAM and use the folder structure mainly for ease of back-up. I keep the original camera folders which makes doing PP easier as I can copy the same PP into all the images from a given camera on a shoot. I may use more than one camera at the same time so it is good to keep them in separate folders. Mostly organized by time but I still have my 2019 Hawaii shoot in a dedicated folder. As well note the higher numbers of pix for my Z6 shots - I went to town a couple of times shooting in HC mode. I have already deleted quite a few of these but many remain.
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Being a fish nerd I use Zoological classification within Lightroom. Keywords can be nesting thus fitting right in except the right hand block of LR has limits as for high wide it can be so that limits the number of levels. As well one has to actually use the higher taxonomic levels as keywords for them to be counted (so the numbers above Sockeye Salmon are smaller - I have over 100K images of them). However when exporting such as jpegs the keywords in the hierarchy get exported too if this is selected (option in the keywording). So when searching through jpegs all of the zoological terms are included. Note that I am using a mixture of scientific and common names and use two common names for the salmon. The name I enter is at the bottom of the hierarchy - LR will suggest keywords so I only need to type in S and O to get to Sockeye Salmon - typing in starting with the genus name would be more challenging hence use of common names. There are a few things always needing a bit cleaning up!!
I have also changed my mind about labeling the zoological classification unit. For example -iformes are orders but the word order does not appear in what you see. I have included it for the higher levels such as class for now. One can add synonyms and have the order names with the word order there. This may be useful for those doing web searches.
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My friend's fishes are "carping" at me. They want Harrison's High Potency Coarse Bird food but they want it broken into fish size bites by a large cockatoo.
Dave
The fishes have wishes: I'm off to fulfill their desire.
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My current workflow is typically ViewNX-i to Capture NX-D to Photoshop CS2 via TIF. In Capture NX-D I "Save all adjustments" to an *.nxd file which is not supported by NX Studio just as Capture NX-D did not read and apply the adjustments saved in NEF files by CaptureNX2.
....
"Huston .. we have a problem!"
Edits in CNX2 will be readable in CNX-D on the proviso that you haven't made any edits that creates a sidecar file(eg. VNX-i or CNX-D) in any way. The embedded edit data, created by CNX2 and VNX2, in an NEF is readable by CNX-D. It will be denoted in the thumbnail with a pencil looking icon in the upper LH corner of the thumbnail.
VNX2 denotes a CNX2 edited NEF with a colour control point icon on the thumbnail to show it's edited via CNX2, and you can not further edit the image, only add keywording and rating info and convert it to another format.
CNX-D will show an icon that looks like a pencil or brush or whatnot, which indicates that it has previously been edited via either CNX2 or VNX2. There doesn't appear to be any differentiating method to separate them in CNX-D, only to show that they have been previously edited.
Any edit made in CNX-D on an already edited NEF by CNX2/VNX2 follows on in CNX-D, so it maintains any edit already made and if you do any adjustments in CNX-D only those adjustments are 'added' into the already edited images.
eg. I made some lurid WB adjustments on some test NEFs in CNX2 and VNX2. Those simple edits are obvious in the now out of whack colours of the images. Further editing in CNX-D was to increase/decrease exposure as a test again, and CNX-Ds' edits maintained the prior edits, just adding it's own.
Obviously CNX2/VNX2 can not render the images as CNX-D will as it can't read the sidecar files.
So the later software respects the earlier software's changes unless you change those changes in some way.
You can test this yourself: any image that you know has been edited via CNX2/VNX2, look for the sidecar file and either rename it or move the sidecar file and open it again in CNX-D. It should show the edit icon even tho you have technically reset it to an original state.
I do remember that in the original few versions of CNX-D it did not respect prior edits made in CNX2, and Nikon did fix it quite early on in the update process tho. Can't remember which version of CNX-D this change was made tho.
NXStudio also shows edit symbol in the thumbnail, and at least displays which previous program had made the edits. For CNX2 it will show a C near the brush(edit) icon) in the thumbnail, if VNX2, only a brush icon in the thumbnail. (lower left corner at the end of the filename).
Nikon deserves harsh and very public criticism for their abject failures with software. The Nikon D1 came out in 1999 and they haven't got their "stuff" together yet releasing a half backed NX Studio and calling it a finished v1.0.0. At each step there are compatibly issues with their own software. I don't care if they use an outside company to develop their software. They have an obligation to thier customers. Nikon seems to stupid to realize that each time the F up they loose customers.
* If the NEF has an XMP/IPCT area to save descriptions and why not use it?
* Why isn't the XMP/IPCT data in an *.nksc file saved as clear, ASCII Text so any program can find and use it? It appears Nikon doesn't give a damn!
* If Nikon software can't save the XMP/IPCT in a form available to the OS and other programs then why not save it in an *.XMP file? The *.XMP sidecar could be saved with the NEF in the same folder so it's easy to copy with the NEF when using the OS to manage files and folders.
How many customers has Nikon lost due to their failure to offer a contiguous and practical method of adding XMP/IPCT data that is reasonably available to the user, the OS and DAM software? It seems to me the only place where descriptions, keywords, GPS, etc. can be placed that one can expect it to be found by the OS and non-Nikon software is in the NEF itself.
Dave who thinks it's well past time for Nikon to give a DAMN about these DAM issues! :o
Yes!.
As said before, Nikon had a pretty much usable method years gone by and thought it better to ruin that system for whatever reason they chose too.
While my method of DAM is not for professional purposes, and I don't pretend to be any expert on DAM, relational databases .. etc. .. as a simple user of software for various purposes, I want 'easy'.
As in easy peasy .. as easy foolproof and easier than that even.
Strangely, many years ago I thought the only way for me to do DAM efficiently for my own purposes was to teach myself 'programming' and basic database knowledge .. so started reading and doing some very basic research on those two topics to teach myself to program a small piece of software to do just that.
But then found the CODEC/Windows Photo Gallery method did exactly what I needed at the time(which is basic in that I only wanted to search for keywords I remember I entered .. for location data, even tho I have geo-tagged most images since about 2010, I still keyword the location for those images anyhow, and with Google and Wiki and the ability to auto generate those keywords into the image also helps.
But you're spot on, Nikon make some useful software that is so infuriating to use sometimes.
I still recommend do the VNX2(for keywording/tagging into ITPC) method for now.
Once the data is at least contained within the NEF file, it's trivial to then extract it back out again.
If the only benefit of doing this for now is that you have some data contained within the NEFs now, then thats a good thing.
I went on for a good 3 or 4 years with zero keywording input and ended up with many thousands of images that I struggled to locate 10 years later. I do go on a IPTC tagging spree sometimes and may do a few thousand images(in bulk) using, primarily, WPG for it's ease.
Once I see the untagged placeholder in WPG near to zero, I will be happy in having accomplished that feat!
But ... I think I will have reached the end of my own personal 'programming' and quite possibly have made myself redundant! ;D
(maybe I will go back to that database programming I attempted about 7 or 8 years ago ???)
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I've successfully installed Yosemite 10.10.1 on a volume on my old 24" iMAC and copied the Applications> Nikon Software> ViewNX 2 folder from the 24" iMAC and pasted it into my MacBook Pro running High Sierra 10.13.6. ViewNX 2 is working to the extent of a fast viewer for culling newly uploaded NEF(s). I registered Capture NX-D so I can send an NEF directly from ViewNX 2 to Capture NX-D. Whether ViewNX 2 will run on later macOS versions I don't know. Yosemite contains the codec for my D850 and should have the codec for the D500.
It's a relief to be able to quickly cull NEF in ViewNX 2 rather than with ViewNXi which may or may not take some time to spot check an NEF at 100% for focus.
I did not copy the Library, Applications Support, Nikon folder as there was one already and I didn't want to chance over-writing newer files with older ones.
Dave