NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Michael Erlewine on April 03, 2018, 00:49:36
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That’s how I use the Nikon D850, with no mirror (or mirror-slap) and only LiveView. I never was infatuated by the mirrorless concept just because it was a smaller camera. I like the size of the D800E, D810, and D850. If anything I liked about the concept of a mirrorless camear was the “idea” of using alternative lenses, getting perhaps a greater field of view out of some really fine lenses.
I was disappointed with the Pentax K3 and K1 (which I owned) and how little they lent themselves to alternative lenses. Same goes for the Hasselblad X1D (which I bought); although they have some nice lenses of their own, they did not care about all my lenses. As for the Fuji GFX (which I also bought), I held out hope for it accommodating the many great lenses I have, and they did do a so-so job, IMO; they kind of came half-way, but certainly not like I had hoped or imagined.
I sent all the above cameras back or sold them and was left with my Nikon D810, which did work for me and which I appreciated. But my thirst for what I imagined mirrorless might bring was still there.
Then along came the Nikon D850. It was everything I could hope for in a mirrorless camera other than it was heavier (which I did not care) and it had a mirror (which I never have used, other than to test it). The Live View LCD on the D850 was just enough better to be fully usable by me and those few extra pixels (45.7 Mpx, which don’t seem like much, are just enough to quench my thirst for a larger sensor.
Then it dawned on me that most of my search for a medium-format mirrorless was about the EVF and not about the presence or absence of a mirror, a larger sensor (or so I thought), being smaller, or anything else. Give me a workable LiveView screen, an electronic front-curtain shutter, silence, and turn the mirror-up off and I am a happy camper. I am.
So, the bottom line for me is that I am interested in what Nikon will come up with in their potentially forthcoming mirrorless camera, but I don’t need it. Yes, if it is 100 Mpx I would turn my head and if it had an even better EVF that might interest me too. But I doubt we will see in it THAT large a sensor and actually I don’t really need it. My very fast computer is already chugging on the D850 files.
For me, the Nikon D850, as I use it, IS the mirrorless camera I always imagined AND it has all the other goodies that I have learned to love in a Nikon DSLR.
If I had to guess, I’ll bet that the forthcoming Nikon mirrorless will NOT add up to what I have right now in the Nikon D850.
Your thoughts, other than that I may be crazy. LOL.
Shot with the Nikon D850 and the Schneider Macro Varon 85mm f/4.5
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Your usage and the reasoning you apply to camera choice certainly are coherent and point out the fact that the D850 is BOTH mirrorless and reflex camera.
I have slightly different use cases, and would welcome the potential for a smaller lighter body and smaller lenses. I carry my Df everywhere, using it mostly with short lenses, and it would be nice if it could lose an inch here and there. A tilting rear screen would also help as I like to hold the camera at arms length to look from above or at low angles.
Of course, the biggest issue is not in the feature or function itself, but rather how well is it implemented. A great optical viewfinder is better than a bad electronic viewfinder, and the reverse of that is possible as well.
If I were a birder or sports photographer I think I’d want whatever viewfinder to be a real-time detailed view. Here again, mirrors always have a blackout period, but when open they refresh at the speed of light. There are always trade-offs.
For the 850 both are available, making it a very good all-around camera.
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there are technical aspects to a camera. all nice to have.
but I feel what makes me love a camera an get better pictures is the handling an the integration into my workflow
Funny. I mistyped "workglow" and it fits Michael's work wonderfully!!!
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I think that implementation is going to be the 'buzzword" for most of us. The new mirrorless Nikon is going to require new lenses (damn!). However, they certainly will not leave us F lens people in the lurch and will have an F adapter available from the get-go?
Personally I will order one the instant they are available. This has got to be the travel camera for me. I am (on my knees) praying that if they have to use an EVF it will be a game changer even against the Leica SL!
I believe Nikon knows they have to knock this one out of the park and if they don't Canon and Sony will eat their lunch. When you're talking about entire new native lens systems it will be easy for anyone to change brands, just saying...
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John, agree, Sony has been big on Innovation but poor on Implementation. The a9 and third generation appears that some photographers have gained ground on Techs and Marketing but a long ways to go. If Nikon can put all of the improvements to DSLRs gained over the years, towards producing a great mirrorless then they could do very well. Lens adapter will be a huge deal. My a7ii and a7rii are very slow in operation and have too many quirks to make them a pleasure to use. They rank 3rd behind my Nikons and Olympus bodies. If I were making lots of money from Photography(lol) and agonized over every image (I am not and I don't) I would probably be happier with Sony (maybe) ;)
Tom
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I'm interested in the sensor Nikon is going to employ for their FX mirrorless body. Even if the banding caused by the reflections from PDAF pixels on the sensor could be a rare issue, Nikon would concern about the possibility, unlike other manufacturers.
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Is the banding also present in dual pixel enabled sensors?
If not, this could be the answer. One drawback is that the sensor photosite count has to be double of what is realized in the final resulting image (or quadruple in a quad-pixel cross-type implementation), and this presents a processing burden for the camera (since AF data needs to be acquired quickly and processed in an instant, having (say) 50 to 200 million photosites to read for each AF step seems like a lot of work for the camera's processors).
But, NHK do 8K video at 240fps now so maybe the processing capability is within reach in the future. And of course Canon have had dual-pixel AF for a while, but it's not as fast as one might hope for.
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Is the banding also present in dual pixel enabled sensors?
If not, this could be the answer. One drawback is that the sensor photosite count has to be double of what is realized in the final resulting image (or quadruple in a quad-pixel cross-type implementation), and this presents a processing burden for the camera (since AF data needs to be acquired quickly and processed in an instant, having (say) 50 to 200 million photosites to read for each AF step seems like a lot of work for the camera's processors).
But, NHK do 8K video at 240fps now so maybe the processing capability is within reach in the future. And of course Canon have had dual-pixel AF for a while, but it's not as fast as one might hope for.
I haven't heard of the banding issue of Canon's dual pixel sensor. The current Panasonic models employ 240fps CDAF on the 20MP sensors, but I think the shorter read-out time of a small sensor is beneficial here.
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Sounds like you need a Phase One XF to complete the cycle.
Add in the 100Mp IQ3 back.
Output to a high quality hi res screen via HDMI(rather than a dinky little viewfinder!!)
.. and you're all set.
Don't know how adaptable the XF is to the lenses you have tho.
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With apologies to Mr Erlewine, I'm new D850 user, so could you explain the maneuvers that make it a mirrorless camera. Also, since you use LV exclusively, do you use a magnifier or similar to shield from bright light?
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With apologies to Mr Erlewine, I'm new D850 user, so could you explain the maneuvers that make it a mirrorless camera. Also, since you use LV exclusively, do you use a magnifier or similar to shield from bright light?
On the D850, I use LiveView and magnification to focus. If I am outside n bright light I use a little viewfinder (Zacuto) that I hold up to the back of the camera. Is use liveView as you would an EVF.
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I use a 10" x 8" LiveView screen. (It is really an iPad used to control the camera over its own WiFi network with CamRanger.)
I can set and control focusing and all my camera settings on the iPad. I can also use it with my StackShot equipment.
This is what my set-up looks like when used to drive StackShot:
(http://nikongear.net/revival/gallery/0/1358-280418035137-551410.jpeg)
(http://nikongear.net/revival/gallery/0/1358-280418035138-5522171.jpeg)
Another advantage (apart from the large control-panel cum viewfinder) is that you are not touching the camera body itself. (you could also drive CamRanger with an iPhone but I prefer to use the large screen of an iPad.
This set-up provides me with both remote radio-control of the camera and a walk-about off-camera flash.
(http://nikongear.net/revival/gallery/0/1358-280418035139-5531888.jpeg)
(http://nikongear.net/revival/gallery/0/1358-280418035220-5541052.jpeg)
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FYI, one can now buy a mirrorless (effectively) D850 right now with some special benefits:
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/05/27/new-nikon-d850-cooled-camera-for-astrophotography.aspx/#more-122197
It will cost you a cool (!!) five grand!
Tom
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Cool! ;D
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That is creative, although it seems that not many parts of the D850 are used, so pretty wasteful. All they would need is the main board, sensor board mount, and the screen? I wonder how much that beast weighs? Likely one would need to add a very high end tracker to those 5 grands to carry it all.
(Just come to Alaska, cooling is all free here ;D )
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The behind the lens filter arrangement seems like the coolest new capability assuming that it could be used for other types of photography (e.g., UV, IR, etc. during the day). It would have probably added to the cost to remove the now not needed D850 parts - VF, AF, etc. As well their removal could cause firmware issues. Yes, in Fairbanks the cooling part is questionable (I have lived there - got my Ph.D. at UAF).
Tom
That is creative, although it seems that not many parts of the D850 are used, so pretty wasteful. All they would need is the main board, sensor board mount, and the screen? I wonder how much that beast weighs? Likely one would need to add a very high end tracker to those 5 grands to carry it all.
(Just come to Alaska, cooling is all free here ;D )
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These are the conversion kit to replace the Sony E/FE mount to an SLR mount (Nikon F, Canon EOS, Pentax K or Sony A) with rear filter thread.
http://www.koheisha.net/sony/emount/sony_emount01.html
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These look a bit cobbled together. Nonetheless the concept is good. It looks like the astro cam can use different size filters at the same time, not sure if these Sony examples will.
Tom
These are the conversion kit to replace the Sony E/FE mount to an SLR mount (Nikon F, Canon EOS, Pentax K or Sony A) with rear filter thread.
http://www.koheisha.net/sony/emount/sony_emount01.html
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These look a bit cobbled together. Nonetheless the concept is good. It looks like the astro cam can use different size filters at the same time, not sure if these Sony examples will.
Tom
According to the description, you need to specify the filter size (52 or 48mm) when you order either Nikon or Canon mount. The M54 mount (shown in the image at the very bottom) can accept a 52mm filter on the camera side and a 48mm one on the telescope side at the same time.
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Just returned from Portugal where I hauled around all the days my D810, Zeiss 50 Makro and trusty 105 Ai 2.5. I really NEED the mirrorless Nikon.
Of course there are rumors of a Fuji rangefinder MF, which if kept simple could lure me to crack open the vault.
But, after this trip the 810 is not going across the pond again. One day is okay, but over two weeks is just too much.
You can view my Portugal images on my website. More of a travelogue than serious photography.
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I enjoyed reading this recent essay by Thom Hogan, in which he singled out what he sees as making Nikons Nikon. Alongside the great stable that's Nikkor glass, Thom lists 5 core seminal strings of "Nikon DNA" : Best in class still-image quality; Best ergonomics; State of the art technology; Intelligence; Legacy support ….
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-nikon-mirrorless-wish.html (http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-nikon-mirrorless-wish.html)
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Overall, Hogan's reasoning seems sound. Of particular interest to me was the caution that the almost limitless backward compatibility between bodies and lenses may finally have to be broken.
Nevertheless, if the promised Nikon mirrorless product is intelligently designed for actual working photographers, it'll be a good addition to the camera world.
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Overall, Hogan's reasoning seems sound. Of particular interest to me was the caution that the almost limitless backward compatibility between bodies and lenses may finally have to be broken.
Nevertheless, if the promised Nikon mirrorless product is intelligently designed for actual working photographers, it'll be a good addition to the camera world.
My best bet for the compatibility offered by the Nikon mirrorless is for the AF-S G lenses and newer... MF lenses should still be able to be used in M and A modes, which is common among any current mirrorless cameras of any brands.
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My best bet for the compatibility offered by the Nikon mirrorless is for the AF-S G lenses and newer... MF lenses should still be able to be used in M and A modes, which is common among any current mirrorless cameras of any brands.
I suspect they will also support AF and AF-D lenses, but the precision of AF control in them does not lend itself to contrast-detect AF (there is a slight amount of play in the mechanism which makes it difficult to make small, precise step adjustments to focus to estimate the gradient). These lenses are most likely to work correctly in those situations where phase detection is used as the main source of information for AF.
In practice I would expect most users to want native lenses (at least if they want autofocus). I don't entirely understand the motivation for cross-system compatibility when the requirements for lenses with regards to exit pupil distance and AF control are different. For manual focus lenses of course this consideration doesn't apply and one would expect full compatibility.
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My best bet for the compatibility offered by the Nikon mirrorless is for the AF-S G lenses and newer... MF lenses should still be able to be used in M and A modes, which is common among any current mirrorless cameras of any brands.
Right
It would be nice if it shoots and the meter works even with manual lenses with no electronics, I do not mind if the exif does not show the lens data.
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The adapter for the Nikon 1 system, FT-1 is quite complex since there are numerous differences in the electronics to the SLR lenses, it also needs a mechanical servo system with gearbox etc. for aperture stop down action, to make the SLR lenses work at all,,, this among other details makes it slower, this is unavoidable. So the adapter approach will always be a compromise.
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I think that overall Mirrorless still has a long way to go, as per my experiences via Sony A7 and Fuji X cameras. Sony at the moment is highly active and is releasing camera after camera and has a lot of hype generated by the forums and youtube videos of early adopters, as well as people from press events. Yet I don't see many Mirrorless cameras at pro events, and the clatter of clicks at Presidential briefings leads me to conclude that they're thin on the ground there as well. Where they seem to be making an impact is with enthusiasts. The point is irrelevant however.
My point really is that the high rate of iteration we're seeing with Sony is a symptom of Mirrorless' lack of capability. Put another way, DSLR's have developed from film cameras and their capabilities have evolved over time. Mirrorless is attempting to do in less time and fewer generations what the mature DSLR's have done for years. And it shows. I believe Mirrorless is still one or two cycles from truly challenging DSLR's. And I'm not alone in this. I cite ByThom's excellent analysis of mirrorless cameras as case in point (see latest comparison D70 vs A7III). And DSLR's are not a stationary target, as the Nikon D850 has shown, incorporating many (but not all) of the advances of mirrorless into it's design, while maintaining the advantages and DNA of Nikon.
As I mentionned on another forum post I will be selling my Sony A7RIII because it is simply too cumbersome to use. Ironic, a small camera cumbersome! I know, I know.. might start a flame war here. However FOR ME it takes away too much of what I enjoyed about DSLR's while not giving me enough Mirrorless magic. Sure the EVF is amazing and way better than using an LCD on a D850. Sure the stabilised sensor makes using older manual focus and unstabilised AF lenses more practical. But the overall package is lacking in too many areas, and one very obvious one. Hold one, and you will know within 10 seconds if it is for you. And if it is, Im happy for you, truly I am. However ergonomically it is too big of a step back.
So I stand by my argument that mirrorless is simply not ready. And the high cost of entry will burn many a consumer. Prices for Sony FF mirrorless are decreasing minute by minute. The A9 announced middle of last year is already $1000 off! Hefty premium to pay for being an early adopter. The A7RIII is now $200 off, and a lot less on EBay. The A7III is priced more reasonably, but don't be fooled. As more and more use it and compare it to the FF DSLR cameras (where prices have already dropped because of age) they will also take a hit on pricing. Simply put the mirrorless cameras are even more consumer than high-end DSLR's. We early adopters are paying dearly for it. I purchased my D810 at signicant discount 2 years ago and sold it for exactly what I paid for it a month ago. Try that with a A7RII? So we have a value discrepancy as well as capability issue here as well. Simply put Mirrorless are cheaper to make, and their used prices are reflecting this reality.
Yes, I know used prices are supply and demand, but there is an intrinsic value that we place on things as well, and that intrinsic value has to do with percieved quality. And that equation does not bode well for Sony in the long term. My prediction.. their prices will come down substancially at the next upgrade round, and their capability will increase to reach DSLR like levels. In the mean while DSLR's will mimic Mirrorless where they can while maintaining their own substantial advantages. End result? Mirrorless will not be takng over the photography world anytime soon. Unless Nikon or Canon decide otherwise :-)
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I think that overall Mirrorless still has a long way to go, as per my experiences via Sony A7 and Fuji X cameras. Sony at the moment is highly active and is releasing camera after camera and has a lot of hype generated by the forums and youtube videos of early adopters, as well as people from press events. Yet I don't see many Mirrorless cameras at pro events, and the clatter of clicks at Presidential briefings leads me to conclude that they're thin on the ground there as well. Where they seem to be making an impact is with enthusiasts. The point is irrelevant however. My point really is that the high rate of iteration we're seeing with Sony is a symptom of Mirrorless' lack of capability. Put another way, DSLR's have developed from film cameras and their capabilities have evolved over time. Mirrorless is attempting to do in less time and fewer generations what the mature DSLR's have done for years. And it shows. I believe Mirrorless is still one or two cycles from truly challenging DSLR's.
even more cycles - given the Nikon F was released in 1959. Albeit mirrorless coopted a great deal of this hard earned SLR technology. The LCD panel in the DSLR is one
And I'm not alone in this. I cite ByThom's excellent analysis of mirrorless cameras as case in point (see latest comparison D70 vs A7III). And DSLR's are not a stationary target, as the Nikon D850 has shown, incorporating many (but not all) of the advances of mirrorless into it's design, while maintaining the advantages and DNA of Nikon.
I rely more and more on the D850's mirrorless, the focus peaking and silent shutter especially. The top end DSLRs to follow will integrate more and more of these features. The clincher will be a hybrid that builds a EVF into the SLR viewfinder
As I mentionned on another forum post I will be selling my Sony A7RIII because it is simply too cumbersome to use. Ironic, a small camera cumbersome! I know, I know.. might start a flame war here. However FOR ME it takes away too much of what I enjoyed about DSLR's while not giving me enough Mirrorless magic. Sure the EVF is amazing and way better than using an LCD on a D850. Sure the stabilised sensor makes using older manual focus and unstabilised AF lenses more practical. But the overall package is lacking in too many areas, and one very obvious one. Hold one, and you will know within 10 seconds if it is for you. And if it is, Im happy for you, truly I am. However ergonomically it is too big of a step back.
So I stand by my argument that mirrorless is simply not ready. And the high cost of entry will burn many a consumer. Prices for Sony FF mirrorless are decreasing minute by minute. The A9 announced middle of last year is already $1000 off! Hefty premium to pay for being an early adopter. The A7RIII is now $200 off, and a lot less on EBay. The A7III is priced more reasonably, but don't be fooled.. As more and more use it and compare it to the FF DSLR cameras (where prices have already dropped because of age) they will also take a hit on pricing.. simply put the mirrorless cameras are even more consumer than high-end DSLR's. We early adopters are paying dearly for it. I purchased my D810 at signicant discount 2 years ago and sold it for exactly what I paid for it a month ago. Try that with a A7RII? So we have a value discrepancy as well as capability issue here as well. Simply put Mirrorless are cheaper to make, and their used prices are reflecting this reality. Yes, I know used prices are supply and demand, but there is an intrinsic value that we place on things as well, and that intrinsic value has to do with percieved quality.. And that equation does not bode well for Sony in the long term. My prediction.. their prices will come down substancially at the next upgrade round, and their capability will increase to reach DSLR like levels. In the mean while DSLR's will mimic Mirrorless where they can while maintaining their own substantial advantages. End result? Mirrorless will not be takng over the photography world anytime soon. Unless Nikon or Canon decide otherwise :-)
According to sales by age profile, the bulk of the growing market seeks simple cameras. The latter bundled into smart phones are an innovation that too many confuse to be equivalent to the cameras and optics that confer vital features to pro and enthusiast photographers. How can this dichotomy be broken down - if at all? [EDITED}