NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => What the Nerds Do => Topic started by: Seapy on December 16, 2017, 23:03:02
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I am quite enthusiastic about making some 360-180º panoramas, I'm not so enthusiastic about the commercially available specialised pano heads I have seen. They strike me as poorly designed, messy construction and flimsy.
So I decided to make my own. It won't be light but it should be solid.
I did a deal with a local scrapyard and obtained a large chunk of one inch thick (25.5mm) magnesium-aluminium alloy about three feet (900mm) in diameter, weighing 38Kg, for a song, well actually they swapped it for some scrap. I don't intend to use all of it for this project!
What I intend to do is to make a curved Arca Swiss plate which mounts on a rotating head with detents. The camera/lens will be attached to the crescent shaped curved (200mm radius on the centre line) plate and will cause the lens nodal point to remain exactly on both the vertical and horizontal axes with a minimum of 'fiddly bits' yet be rigid and stable for robust use in the field. This was initially inspired by (but not copied from) a very solid movie tripod head, which is in the fourth picture.
These are pictures of the plate aluminium, which I am reliably informed was once part of a shoe manufacturing machine!!!
I hope to update this thread as I progress through the process.
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This is bonkers! (in a good way)
I could be curious to see it in action one day...
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This warms my heart ......a real Englishman in his shed, making things from big lumps of metal.
You are my hero, well done sir!
Regards
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:o :o :o
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Wow, this is quite a project!
At first, I thought you would stand on the disc holding a camera and have someone to rotate the whole thing! :o :o :o
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At first, I thought you would stand on the disc holding a camera and have someone to rotate the whole thing! :o :o :o
Would have been easier that way.
Easier than holding the eventual massive contraption, and a lot easier than cutting it all up!
Looking forward to see the results too.
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This is bonkers! (in a good way)
I could be curious to see it in action one day...
Beautifully bonkers. Please do share the rest of the project
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;D ;D ;D
Thanks for the encouragement guys, I am waiting to get the disk in my friends lathe, I know it will fit but not sure if the tooling will reach the edge to turn it down to size and cut the outer dovetail groove. Although I'm sure we will improvise something, I do have access to an even larger lathe if needs be. Mine is only a five inch lathe, it won't stretch to 17", well not easily ;)
I am deliberating whether to make the dovetail two inches wide or stick to the Arca Swiss, one and a half inches, 38mm. I like heavy and strong but perhaps 38mm is strong enough in magnesium aluminium one inch thick (25mm) Also it will allow standard parts to fit the rail. Given this rail is curved I may need to introduce a radius in the nodal rail clamp which grips my curved plate.
I am waiting for two Arca nodal rails from eBay but they seem to be lost in transit, may not even see them this year. >:(
I take it the only way of getting video on here is to host it on You-Tube and post the link?
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Robert, we are all eagerly awaiting to see the results of your marvelous endeavor!
Feel free to post a link to YouTube, of course :)
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Thanks Jakov, I recently acquired a dinky little Go-Pro cube thing and plan to use it to record some go the process. ;D
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It is quite amusing and absurd. Mattew Rogers makes a head that is really sturdy and relatively light weight. Look for 360 precision absolute
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Frank, this for FUN, you don't do fun???
I enjoy making things, as well as climbing mountains and taking photographs and probably a hundred other things you may consider absurd. I shall continue with my little project despite your apparent disapproval. >:(
Thank you for the pointer to a very delightful designed panoramic head. After delightful design, flimsy was the first thought which came into my head (pun intended!). ;D
Can you imagine my D3 and Nikkor 300mm f2.8 mounted on one of those heads... I shudder to contemplate it and the flimsy head would probably shudder too/ The nodal point of the 300 f2.8 is about 215mm BEHIND the lens mount. Not quite sure how your suggestion would handle that. My design will handle it with aplomb and will be rock solid. But perhaps you consider using the 300 2.8 for panoramas is absurd too?
It may be absurd to you but I will enjoy making it and using it that's is more important for me than going out and spending a lot of money on someone else's excellent and artistic design. You never know, others may like my design and reproduce it themselves.
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Robert, hope you keep pushing your project forward. I have almost no idea of what you are trying to make and am sooooo intrigued!
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Thank you Akira, indeed I will. This evening am visiting my friend to try the lump in his lathe. Tea and biscuits, surrounded by historic racing motorbikes in his shed! A 250 Rudge hillclimb bike, an HRD Vincent and a prototype three wheeler which paved the way for the most controversial sidecar world championship title ever, the Greenwood special, which my friend is currently restoring (with a little help from me). Oh joy!
Might even make some swarf... ;D
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Indeed and +1 from me too.
Maybe another George Daniels?
This warms my heart ......a real Englishman in his shed, making things from big lumps of metal.
You are my hero, well done sir!
Regards
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Mmmm, not sure about that, at 70 I don't have time on my side! ;)
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I am German.
I never laugh and never have fun.
By definition.
I am not sure you understood that I really like your project.
Technical annotation: The Nodal point is irrelevant for non parallax photography. You have to rotate around the entrance pupil. But you are right, the entrence pupil of the Nikkor AF-S 300mm f2.8 VR II is really -212.5mm ... IMO a non transportale design plus a 300mm tele lens does not make much sense for panoramic photography. You need to downsize the files significantly to have them rendering or a machnine, with -- what -- 2 Terabyte of RAM????
I take panos both for fun and for clients since 2005, I found the 24mm and 35mm to be very useful. I get 800MP with the 1.4/24 on a D600...
between 60 and 150 Files per 180x360 is practical. 12GByte Panos are doable on my 64 GB RAM machine
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I remember seeing a gigapixel pano project in the Netherlands where, if I remember correctly, they used a D1X and a 600/4.0 lens. They made a huge pano of an entire town using images shot from a rooftop of a building. I saw the pano, and I could enlarge the details infinitely!
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A bloody big and challenging project !
So, as everybody here I am going to wait patiently the following of the event... :D
I wish you a good luck and looking forward the next step.
Thank for sharing, Francis.
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Thank you Akira, indeed I will. This evening am visiting my friend to try the lump in his lathe. Tea and biscuits, surrounded by historic racing motorbikes in his shed! A 250 Rudge hillclimb bike, an HRD Vincent and a prototype three wheeler which paved the way for the most controversial sidecar world championship title ever, the Greenwood special, which my friend is currently restoring (with a little help from me). Oh joy!
Might even make some swarf... ;D
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This is getting better and better. Please, an image of that hillclimber! If possible...☺️
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I came across this and it reminded me of the material you're working with
https://youtu.be/50_n2j_Pe0E (https://youtu.be/50_n2j_Pe0E)
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I am German.
I never laugh and never have fun.
By definition.
Mmmm... We better not go there! LOL Your comments seemed... A little serious? I do have a photo, somewhere, of the 1989? Le Mans 24Hr finish. The predominantly German stand, Mercedes, Porche banners... Was filled with spectators who were politely standing admiring the finish, a Porche won, by a few laps, the Jaguars had all died but the Brits were in raptures, waving flags, clambering over the 12ft wall onto the track etc. because the winning driver was British. Just an observation.
I am not sure you understood that I really like your project.
Well you did conceal your enthusiasm well! LOL ;D
Technical annotation: The Nodal point is irrelevant for non parallax photography. You have to rotate around the entrance pupil. But you are right, the entrence pupil of the Nikkor AF-S 300mm f2.8 VR II is really -212.5mm ... IMO a non transportale design plus a 300mm tele lens does not make much sense for panoramic photography. You need to downsize the files significantly to have them rendering or a machnine, with -- what -- 2 Terabyte of RAM????
I realise the nodal point and the entrance pupil are different but informally most people tend to use the terms interchangeably. I did intend to cover that in my first post but forgot. By using a panoramic head I am hoping I will be able to create templates of the lens positions which will/should make the stitching process easier. I don't intend to do hundreds of panoramas but I have several locations in mind.
My intention with the 300mm isn't to make 360-180º pano's but for example there is a Priory Church near here which has the second? largest East window in the UK, it contains some original 16th century glass. I hope to be allowed to make a panorama of the window with the 300mm from as far back as possible so I'm not getting as much sky behind the glass and I will be viewing as level as possible without building a scaffold.
I worked on restoring the window and other parts of the priory, back in 1962 as an apprentice.
For most 360-180º panoramas I intend to use my 16mm fisheye with the D3. Six upright exposures around high (past the zenith), six low and a nadir.
I take panos both for fun and for clients since 2005, I found the 24mm and 35mm to be very useful. I get 800MP with the 1.4/24 on a D600...
between 60 and 150 Files per 180x360 is practical. 12GByte Panos are doable on my 64 GB RAM machine
I have an old Apple Mac Pro 4.1 which I hacked to 5.1 with a couple of SSD's + HD's I fitted 32Gb Ram but it actually runs slightly faster on 24Gb, unless Photoshop is swapping in and out of RAMdisk but with the SSD's it's marginal. I am considering fitting a couple of ultra fast M2 PCI SSD's which will make it fly. Although from what I have read PTGui doesn't make use of a lot of RAM, it's said to work on quite modest machines but never-the-less more RAM has to be good. ;D
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This is getting better and better. Please, an image of that hillclimber! If possible...☺️
Will do my best, it's been raced on the Isle of Man hill climb section, came second I think, a bit primitive but a really nice, original bike.
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I came across this and it reminded me of the material you're working with
https://youtu.be/50_n2j_Pe0E (https://youtu.be/50_n2j_Pe0E)
Thank you Colin, I see the resemblance, what a fascinating device!
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@seapy: try "kolor Autopano GIGA"
great software with an advanced algorithm. Ypu can dive into tje details or leve it.
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I am still a bit fuzzy on what is being made here, but it's fascinating anyway and I hope we see the results.
Quite off the topic, but the reference to dead Jaguars above reminds me of one of those little jokes whose origin is long forgotten. In some automotive magazine, I think, the question of how different people view reliability was addressed more or less this way. A Honda owner crows that he's just gotten two hundred thousand miles without a major repair, and a Jaguar owner crows that he just drove across the country and it only caught fire once.
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@seapy: try "kolor Autopano GIGA"
great software with an advanced algorithm. Ypu can dive into tje details or leve it.
Thanks Frank, off out now but will take a look later.
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I am still a bit fuzzy on what is being made here, but it's fascinating anyway and I hope we see the results.
Quite off the topic, but the reference to dead Jaguars above reminds me of one of those little jokes whose origin is long forgotten. In some automotive magazine, I think, the question of how different people view reliability was addressed more or less this way. A Honda owner crows that he's just gotten two hundred thousand miles without a major repair, and a Jaguar owner crows that he just drove across the country and it only caught fire once.
You and I both, but it will evolve in time, if the eBay shower deliver my nodal rails...
Yea but the Jag driver will have kept the petrol tanker driver in work, the mechanic in work and the road sweeper (picking up the bits that drop off), not to mention the fire crew! On top of that he will have had nice day. OK the Honda driver will have got to work a few times but where's the excitement in that? ;D
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Thanks Frank, off out now but will take a look later.
I use this software since it was invented, first as a scientific project, later as commercial licenses from the University. For small stitches, like two to 5 pictures and less than 180deg in any direction I use PS "photomerge". But for the more complex and delicate stuff I use Autopano Giga.
For the church windows here I use a 200mm or 300 mmm single shot with a high res body like the D850. With the right light (diffuse & backlit) I get great results printable to nearly every size:
https://www.sankt-petrus-bonn.de/_Resources/Persistent/6fe43e627a6550d1647ab35409470f46ef951c22/Eckstein-2016-1.pdf
An they only took a 100% crop from my shot for the title page!
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cant wait to see the results :o :o :o
back in the day we had a similar rig made by our engineers for the ARRI cameras for a slightly similar purpose
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Awesome project
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Nice to see a challenging project ;)
Looking forward to some drawings and more images,,, 8)
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Update:
Spent a very enjoyable evening at my friends shed, tea and biscuits as expected!
The 'lump' fitted his lathe with about 5mm clearance from the leadscrew. Getting a safe setup for the tooling was a challenge but we succeeded. The metal cuts really nicely, no tearing or chatter, leaves a really nice finish even with roughing cuts, so I am hopeful the finished product will be nicely finished.
I have taken video with the Go-Pro but yet to review it, also some photographs of the Rudge, despite rather cramped situation. Again not checked out the images yet. Didn't get home until 2am this morning.
Will post pix later.
Have decided how to deal with my uncertainty over the width of the rail, 2" (52mm) or 1½" (38mm); I have decided to make the first cut at 2" then cut out one partial sector, probably one third of the total circumference, then continue machining the remaining two thirds down to 1½". That will give me the both, which I can use or not interchangeably it I feel the need. From my experience of last night the lathe didn't vibrate or chatter with the interrupted cuts of the rough edge, so I am confident it will be OK cutting just cutting for two thirds of the circumference.
Barring accidents I should end up with three curved Arca Swiss rails with a centre radius of 200mm. One inch thick and with a 45º dovetail grip on each side.
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Like others, I'm following this thread with great interest to see what you come up with, Robert.
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This is getting better and better. Please, an image of that hillclimber! If possible...☺️
Here we go! ;D ;D ;D
Not sure we both mean the same by the term 'Hillclimber' this is used and adapted for speed hill climbs on hard pavement, roads I *think* it's about 1926 and it's road legal, he does test it on the road between racing. You may also catch a glimpse of a Greeves with a Triumph 650 engine, maybe been bored out to 750, can't remember... That's a trials bike in the UK. Used for racing on fields and hillsides on rough tracks and paths.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4592/27427609599_291ee8dc08_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4693/27427607409_9005184776_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4601/24342410297_7d0349d896_o.jpg)
Notice the open push rods and valve gear... The valves used to seize in the guides so my friend made a drip feed lube setup and the little cups around the valve springs stop the oil from splattering every where.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4593/24342412167_5b0f904dfa_o.jpg)
The back of the Vincent can just be seen through the back wheel in picture two.
I have a couple more if you are interested showing the Greeves and a 250 Triumph which is awaiting restoration. The Triumph has a 500cc speedway engine which runs on methanol.
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Not sure we both mean the same by the term 'Hillclimber"
I think we do ;) beautiful machine, should be a dream to ride. I´m interested in those "couple more" you have... my only vehicle for the last 15 years have been a series of motorbikes. I had a Triumph for over 3 year, speed triple 1050cc 2006 model. A complete different kind of beast but so much fun to take to work everyday. I´m in love with older models. Classy and a great engineering.
Thanks a lot for sharing all this
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This tread is getting more and more interesting.
I thought that all British motorcycles had to leak oil everywhere, remember my friends Velocette, it managed to drip from all places ;)
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LOL! Leaking oil is a design feature... saves the chrome! (sometimes)
OK, my friends HRD Vincent. At his birthday bash with his rally Mini in the background.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4733/38330427355_c1543efe61_o.jpg)
The Tri-Greeves same birthday bash... The 'silencers' were made from two fire extinguishers welded over perforations in the exhaust tubes (my idea!).
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4596/27430933879_7eb5a6bbcb_o.jpg)
The Tri-Greeves yesterday, as my friend was getting the Rudge out to have it's photo taken. Not a lot of room.
The bike in the middle is the Triumph, originally a 250 I believe but my friend is going to fit a very powerful, fully tuned methanol 500cc single speedway engine, a JAP I think.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4635/38330289315_e88251ef5c_o.jpg)
Riders eye view of the Rudge, the big knob in the middle of the handlebars is the steering damper. Crude but effective.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4690/24345192767_6e0afefe84_o.jpg)
Hope you enjoy, I have hundreds of vintage motorcycle pix, mainly racing, also Morgan three wheeler racing stuff. Maybe another thread... Another day!
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Racing improves the breed, without a doubt!
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you are quite a craftsman
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you are quite a craftsman
I just like making things! Since kindergarten, probably before?
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I looked at the Go-Pro video and was horrified at my personal appearance... Looked like I had been dragged through a hedge backwards!
So, I have just taken some screen shots of the lathe setup for now, next time I will have my self tidied up before I stand in front of camera! ::)
My friend Sid is the smart one. The yellow contraption in the top left hand corner is an English Wheel I made to form double curves in aluminium bodywork, Sid has been using it to repair the bodywork of the racer with the blue chassis/frame on the left.
Sid drove the gearbox of the lathe while I operated cutting controls. This was the first time I had used this lathe, and we wanted to be able to stop it immediately if the disk showed signs of leaving it's position!
Grabbing a final sip of tea before getting started...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4635/39190003662_2ced8275b5_o.jpg)
Roughing the edge.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4641/38342030135_8340f508fc_o.jpg)
Going nicely, relaxing a bit with nice swarf rolling off the tool.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4646/38342028415_249c85db19_o.jpg)
The Go-Pro ran out of battery after nearly two hours so didn't record it all. I had only really intended to check the lump would fit in the lathe and be workable.
Sorry about the scruffy dishevelled appearance, not used to being filmed at close quarters!
The Arca Swiss nodal slides have finally arrived from eBay, very impressed. At least I have something to match up to now.
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That's a mighty close fit to the gap in the lathe bed.
Nice machine.
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That's a mighty close fit to the gap in the lathe bed.
Nice machine.
Yes, about 5mm! But more critical was the diameter clearance to the lead screw, we could have mounted it on a faceplate if it had been too thick. That was only about 6mm and we had to take the thread indicator off the apron to allow the tooling to get anywhere near the width of the disk. It's rated as an 11" lathe but that's diameter! This disk is just under 18" (455mm dia.) so it's pushing the limits.
It's a Harrison, hardly used, not sure of the history but it was found in a local garage unwanted and unloved. I now have my friend Sid's old lathe but I haven't set it up yet. Hope to get it going over the holiday if I can because it's a 60 mile round trip to Sid's.
I am trying to scheme how to get a lathe tool to cut the bevels of the dovetails so far from the tool-post. I think some special tooling may need to be made.
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The Vincent can just be seen through the back wheel in picture two.
Richard Thompson would approve
https://youtu.be/AxKTzwaEa2o
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300 years ago an English priest invented the steam engine. The world did change big time from there.
The steam engine enabled humanity to pump the water from the coal pits, tapping into the carbon stored by animals and plants millions of years ago.
No Smartphones and internet today without the English man of god diversifying into engineering three centuries ago!
Obviosly you and your mate continue the glorios tradition on English Engineering!!!!
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Obviosly you and your mate continue the glorios tradition on English Engineering!!!!
In a nutshell!
My last big project:
Marlin kitcar with Rover V8 engine, Ford Cortina running gear.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/453/18675067311_ab379441c8_o.jpg)
Made all the bare bodywork and more besides myself on the English wheel I made from scrap.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/502/18135030759_76c8fed068_o.jpg)
I have decided to concentrate on smaller projects from now on, mainly photography and the kids. I don't have the space for big stuff now.
This another little project I did, for the kids... Built on a invalid car chassis. I made the entire body from exactly one 8' x 4' 0.8mm aluminium sheet I bought by mistake!
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1691/24635807411_746dd2a175_o.jpg)
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Impressive :)
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The little winch on the Land Rover is a grand touch.
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that's so cute! I always wanted to build a Kubelwagen for myself a long time ago it's just that I don't have the time and resources to do it :o :o :o
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you got four kids?
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you got four kids?
:o :o :o LOL, no just three, the little mischievous one sat next to the girl, Christopher and Michael who's sat behind pushing! The other two are neighbours kids. My daughter is 23 and not interested in Land Rovers! ;D
Here the the boys are together at a car show with the Land Rover a bit more finished.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4644/39287134731_f1a36a0ee1_o.jpg)
This is my daughter Louise, while she was staying with me during the summer on a walk down the pier.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4733/39258523612_91ae1705ef_o.jpg)
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The little winch on the Land Rover is a grand touch.
There's a big towing hitch on the back too. They use the winch to pull it around and onto their grandads truck to take it to shows.
that's so cute! I always wanted to build a Kubelwagen for myself a long time ago it's just that I don't have the time and resources to do it :o :o :o
It was very interesting to build, the outer corners of the front wings and the bonnet were the most difficult to make. All solid rivets off eBay. Not expensive, just time consuming and fiddly.
It has all the running gear but as of yet it doesn't drive under it's own power. Maybe this year, before the showing season? Needs glass in the windscreen too. It gives them free entry into the shows so they get to meet people and see other things for themselves, without dad hovering over them.
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Back to my Panorama Head...
My new 200mm Arca Swiss nodal rails have arrived from eBay. This has helped me judge the scale of what I am making. I have decided to scale it back to 150mm radius to the outside of the curved rail. My original intention was to make it 200mm to the centre of the curved rail. This will make it lighter and stiffer.
Another reason is that it will be much easier (and safer) to work on in the lathe.
Here are three diagrams of what I am making. I have roughly plotted the visible frame of the lens I am intending to use mainly with this head, although I also intend to use other lenses in the future. Probably the 300mm f2.8.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4634/27513074399_3461e00d88_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4728/38581575904_f814dfaeb6_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4691/27513073139_fe77eb37ec_o.jpg)
I have ordered a 100mm nodal rail because I believe that will do the job with the 16mm lens.
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I admit that besides the impressive panorama head I‘m quite interested in the Morgan Threewheeler pics. Go on, love the techie stuff.
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OMG! OK ;D
First off my father during WW2 ~ 1942? in his Morgan with Zella his Dalmation at his diggs, Daisy Nook farm near Manchester. Taken with box brownie.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4736/38586250484_52692c1833_o.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4679/38417127775_fc8f67d9cc_o.jpg)
This is probably the most competitive Morgan three wheeler still running, here driven by Bill Tuer at Croft Circuit, his wife, Maggie is curled up out of sight, almost! D1x, 80-200 f2.8
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4593/39293979811_b58ce71534_o.jpg)
Same car, different day, different weather too... Bills son-in-law, Hamish at the wheel in the wet at Cadwell Park.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4728/25425957128_27747a7a34_o.jpg)
One of my favourites, Hamish and Sid my friend with the lathe, who is driving the white three wheel Berkley behind Hamish, not for long as Sid passed on the next straight just before the finish at Three Sisters, Wigan.
The Morgan was running on methanol, which produces a lot of power, also gets sprayed out of the carbs on the overrun right into the face of any following driver. Not nice, need good goggles.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4737/24430835497_0d8c41e3b3_o.jpg)
A little more sedate, a couple of water cooled Morgans, think they have Morris 8 engines? Still fairly quick but not in the same league as the twins.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4593/24430832897_8302786160_o.jpg)
Speaking of which I spotted this at an auto jumble. Makes our hobby look cheap.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4732/25425960258_275d59a157_o.jpg)
Finally, a couple of three wheel racers, sidecars. First at Cadwell Park, Titch a Triumph outfit ridden by Steve Wheatley and Graham Keymer. D200, 80-200 f2.8
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4598/25425965978_3a92494bb9_o.jpg)
Last a photo taken by my son, Michael at Three Sisters, Wigan. D1, 80-200 f2.8
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4725/39265194462_962b1f88e0_o.jpg)
Hope you enjoyed looking as much as I enjoyed being there and taking them.
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Robert, I'd like to make sure what "object" you are trying to make.
So, you are aiming at extracting the arc shape thingie outlined in blue from this huge disc?!
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Dear Robert, I am in awe reading this thread.
Thank you so much!
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Robert, I'd like to make sure what "object" you are trying to make.
So, you are aiming at extracting the arc shape thingie outlined in blue from this huge disc?!
Yes, originally I had tried to make it as large as I could... But sense and reason are prevailing, it will mounted on end as an arc to attach a nodal plate to, it will be mounted on a rotating head, which I have yet to make, at the appropriate distance so all the axes align to provide a parallax free, rotating mount which will allow me to use repeatable settings so I can use templates for 360-180º panoramas. Other lenses will be able to fit but it's primarily for the 16mm fisheye.
Most of the design is in my head because I can't use my CAD software anymore, it's way too old and flaky to use. I have tried to find affordable CAD software, 2D but it's either overly simplistic or way too complex and expensive. An up to date version of Mac Draft would be ideal but I can't find it. I need snap to point, dimensions and scales, I spent days searching but no luck.
I will try to draw something in Powerpoint if I can find it!
Initially I will turn a ring 1½" wide with a dovetail matching the Arca Swiss design, the dovetail will be at both sides so I can clamp a rail at either side of the curved rail Then I will cut the ring into two larger sectors about the size of the blue outline and the remainder will be waste. A nodal rail can be clamped to the sector of the ring, the arm of the nodal rain will always be pointed to align with the axis of zero parallax. All one has to do is set the camera on the arm at the right length and the rest just happens. Once I have arrived at a good workable setting I may create my own nodal arm with a fixed position for the camera.
Originally I had intended using a piece of aluminium strip and curving it but that's harder than cutting it from plate.
My idea comes from the vision that with the massive film tripod head I showed in picture four of post one, if the lens nodal point were central at the notional centre of the tilt motion it would make for zero parallax movement of the camera tilt it would also be aligned with the pan motion. This is simply a development of that principle to allow a minimum 60 tilt with a very wide angle lens, 170º or thereabouts. If the mechanism does intrude into the image it won't matter because it will be offset from the vertical axis and each exposure will contain the image data to fill the gap for the zenith, the nadir will need a fill in shot anyway because of the tripod, so no worries there.
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Dear Robert, I am in awe reading this thread.
Thank you so much!
My pleasure Jakov, helps me to focus my mind and adds to the fun!
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Robert, thank you for the very detailed explanation. That makes lots of sense now.
I would have to confess that I had thought that you would be using the arc horizontally, which would makes no sense for the pano. But when you use it vertically, that is an excellent idea! :o :o :o
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Thank you Akira, It's a different approach and no doubt there will be room for refinement but if it works as expected I will be happy.
The main unknown for me is how a conventional nodal rail (designed to fit a straight mount) will take to being installed on a curved mounting rail. It will mean there will be three distinct points of contact, which could be good but not sure if the jaws will open far enough to allow for that. This is where a good CAD software would help out. It will only need a little fettling so no real worries.
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... This is where a good CAD software would help out. ....
Commercial 3D CAD licences are really expensive, but there is open source FreeCad, https://www.freecadweb.org/ (https://www.freecadweb.org/) which is quite capable, in very active development, and has a friendly support forum. If you check it out, do not let the version no. fool you, it should be multiplied with a factor of >10 (I am using the development version, 0.17 which is pretty stable).
This example of use might wet your appetite ;) :
https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=21683 (https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=21683)
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This example of use might wet your appetite ;) :
https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=21683 (https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=21683)
Thank you Øivind, I have downloaded the software, I have in fact looked at it before but gave up in despair because I couldn't make head nor tail of it. However I am persevering and am watching many You-Tube tutorials. It's slowly beginning to make sense. It's so tiny step by tiny step, compared with what I an used to that I couldn't understand it. The principle is totally different from conventional CAD drawing software that I have used before. I have drawn many plans and drawings of houses, factories and smaller developments over the years so I'm not without experience but this is totally different.
If I can master the software I shall be eternally grateful to you! It's looking promising already. Maybe a couple of days...
Robert
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This is where a good CAD software would help out.
Hi Robert,
Another CAD candidate you might try, if not already:
http://qcad.org/en/qcad-downloads-trial
You download the trial version and can remove the "Professional" addon to continue to use it without those features, although it is pretty good value. I've only used the Linux version and found it pretty capable.
Regards,
Richard
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Thank you Øivind, I have downloaded the software, I have in fact looked at it before but gave up in despair because I couldn't make head nor tail of it. However I am persevering and am watching many You-Tube tutorials. It's slowly beginning to make sense. It's so tiny step by tiny step, compared with what I an used to that I couldn't understand it. The principle is totally different from conventional CAD drawing software that I have used before. I have drawn many plans and drawings of houses, factories and smaller developments over the years so I'm not without experience but this is totally different.
If I can master the software I shall be eternally grateful to you! It's looking promising already. Maybe a couple of days...
Robert
I am glad if it can be of help for you. I had exactly the same feeling first time I looked at FreeCad; I could not figure out anything. But when I then came back to it later and spent the time (this kind if thing needs practice and experimentation - not only reading about it), I got above that first threshold and it started to be fun. I have kept mostly to the Sketcher and Part workbench, which is pretty well established (+ the Stepup workbench for cooperation with electronic design software); the Part Design is newer and less established and I have found it more tricky. In ver. 0.17 there are very good tools to move parts around and rotate them. There are probably near infinite possibilities to keep learning a software like this, but one can get very far by just learning what one needs at the moment.
I am wary of the concept of limited versions of commercial software that is free; one never knows what a company might do down the path. A recent example is the electronic design software Eagle. I personally use open source KiCad, http://kicad-pcb.org/ (http://kicad-pcb.org/), never liked Eagle enough to learn it, and we have seen a number of Eagle users come over to KiCad lately after the free Eagle version became paid subscription software....
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I am wary of the concept of limited versions of commercial software that is free; one never knows what a company might do down the path.
I agree and one of the nice things about Qcad, is the author provides the limited version as Open Source as well, so there's nothing to stop anyone adding extra features.
Robert, one of the features available in the paid version of Qcad, that I've found the price worth many times over as a hobby cabinetmaker, is the ability to print parts out at 1:1 scale, across multiple sheets of A4 paper, along with registration marks. This means one can tape them all together, for cutting out templates, without needing A3 printers or plotters.
Regards,
Richard
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I see, and it is 2D CAD, so quite different from FreeCAD, rather complementary. What is really nice about 3D CAD is that one can design multiple parts (or download STEP models if available) and then manipulate them in 3D space to see how they fit together before producing any hard copy or real thing at all. The software can then create files for CNC or 3D printing, or models can be sent to a commercial shop for production (although at a price...). Among open source 2D CAD I often see LibreCAD mentioned (http://librecad.org), although I have not had time to try it out yet.
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Among open source 2D CAD i often see LibreCAD mentioned (http://librecad.org), although I have not had time to try it out yet.
Yes, my understanding is that LibreCAD was a fork of the open source version 2 of Qcad. I haven't looked at it for some years now.
Regards,
Richard
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I took the advice to go out and make some photographs seriously and here is the result...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4599/39346964262_0e307bcacd_o.jpg)
I also took the opportunity to persevere with my quest to master FreeCad. About four days of intense banging my head against a brick wall and it's slowly beginning to make sense. I can now create the shapes I want (well some of them!) and for the most part place them where I want to place them. I have watched hours of YouTube tutorials about FreeCad, some make sense, others were a waste of ether space. Two particular videos unlocked the software for for me, one in Italian, and the other with a robot dialogue! ;D And I don't speak Italian...
This is my first successful effort, it clearly shows the form of the curved Arca rail which will form the backbone of my Panorama head.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4633/24537054627_895a94b4c5_o.jpg)
The outer dovetail cut is not quite right, too deep by a couple of mm or so but that's a detail, I will re-draw it once I have constructed the rest of the head. I am currently struggling to form a hole on the base block at 90º to the current drawing axis but having read up some info and slept on it, I think I will master that today. I almost had it last night but when I hit the cut button it all vanished from the screen! LOL ::) ::) ::)
Good to be back, many thanks for the suggestions for CAD software. The main reason I had avoided 3D was I found it very difficult to comprehend, not the 3D concept but the totally strange way in which the drawings and shapes are generated. So excepting for some insurmountable obstacle I shall stick with FreeCAD for now at least. It's slowly falling into place in my mind. You are never too old to learn. Learning opens up the future.
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Well, I now have comprehendible image of my Pano Head with a difference:
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I have a couple more if you are interested showing the Greeves and a 250 Triumph which is awaiting restoration. The Triumph has a 500cc speedway engine which runs on methanol.
By this series of photographs I can see you weren't Mods. Were you guys at the Battle of Brighton Beach?
Dave Hartman
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By this series of photographs I can see you weren't Mods. Were you guys at the Battle of Brighton Beach?
Dave Hartman
Rolling on the floor Laughing! ;D
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Well, I now have comprehendible image of my Pano Head with a difference:
Robert, I am really impressed by your progress with FreeCad after such a short time!! I think you are going to have a lot of fun with it. The comment on learning from a tutorial in Italian without knowing the language is right on. 3D CAD is really learned by doing, not so much by talking.
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Thanks Øivind, It was a hard slog and very frustrating but I realised that this approach to 3D is on the whole probably the easiest route so I precivered. I could have done it in a few minutes with the software I am used to but that's progress, soon I hope to be reasonably fluent with FreeCad then it will be a quick process also. I am very grateful to you all for the encouragement to clear this hurdle. I should have done it some time ago when I built the Kit Car. It would have been invaluable for that.
The nodal plates I ordered have arrived now so as soon as I can turn the ring, I can proceed with the project.
I am considering if I can make the link bar that fits on top of the rotating base, clamp onto the curved sector plate instead of bolting it on. That would guarantee the notional centre of the sector plate being aligned with the 'nodal point' of the lens and the assembly. It would also simplify the construction and assembly. This is where having it as a 3D CAD is good because I can look at it in all directions and consider the options. Even try different parts.
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any updates?! :o :o :o
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Well Richard,
I had another session on the lathe last week, I have reduced the outer size to about 303mm dia. I parted the 'waste' off in the lathe so I still have the material to make two larger heads if I feel the need. I decided go for the smaller option because I think it will 'get the job done' and be much easier to machine on my friends lathe rather than stretching things trying to work beyond the machines capacity. I do have access to a much larger lathe if I really need to in the future.
I went to an Auto-jumble last weekend, there is a man there who makes and sells lathe tools, so I explained what I needed to make the 45º dovetail grooves and he told me he would make me the exact tool I needed at very modest cost. That was Saturday, it dropped on my doorstep this morning, perfect.
I have about 5mm to machine off the outer diameter, I am aiming for 150mm radius at the outside of the curved rail, to give me a fixed datum to measure the lens nodal point settings, because the nodal point will be in clear space, unlike conventional pano heads. I am still un-decided exactly how I will attach the curved rail to the support arm from the rotating head, there are a number of options which I will choose from once the curved rail is finished and I can visualise the finished article.
I have mastered one or two other tricks with the FreeCad software, but to be honest, now I have that design it's close enough to what I am intending and it helps me visualise the form. I don't see much need for enhancing it now.
I plan to have another lathe session one evening this week. Once I have finished the ring, I should be able to do most of the remaining work on my own lathe.
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Much progress has been made since my last post.
I have essentially completed the machining of the main parts with the exception of the detent ring for the click positioning of the rotation, for the D3, 16mm Fisheye combination that will be six clicks @ 60º.
Part of the delay has been clearing my shed to allow the re-assembly of my own lathe, making this pano head is very time consuming and although my friend is very accommodating it entails a 60 mile+ round trip to visit him and also fitting in with his spare time, so having completed what needed his larger lathe, I decided I had to get my own lathe working. This was my driving motivation! The lathe had been dismantled to make transportation easier. I got the lathe back together pretty well but when I started the freshly overhauled motor, it ran backwards!!! ::) I swapped the two starter winding leads and normal rotation resumed much to my relief and pleasure. ;D
All these illustrations have been made using my D3300 and the rough 'workshop' badly gouged 18-105 VR lens.
This is the start of creating a groove to enable the ring to be cut from the disk.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4616/26220939528_3373aa3e3c_b.jpg)
The moment the ring separated from the central disk, a moment of tension because I was unsure how it would behave. Near the bottom is the special tool I had made to cut the grooves for the Arca clamps.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4752/28314387929_5f6e00f67c_b.jpg)
A close up of the tool cutting the groove.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4616/26220939528_3373aa3e3c_b.jpg)
The ring mounted on a face plate, using three nodal rails to hold it. This was to clean up the inner face of the ring after it was cut from the disk.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4668/39196249415_01c7230c8d_b.jpg)
The boring tool used to clean up the ring.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4659/25223289457_1525ee78a3_b.jpg)
Machining the mounting clamps from eBay which I will use to mount the curved rail. This was done on my friends Milling machine. I clamped an Arca rail to the machine bed then clamped the bracket clamp to the rail, that helped to make the repeatability to machine the second bracket clamp. Notice the spirit level, we machined about 1mm of the plastic and it survived! Not that it mattered, normally for this purpose it's orientated vertically, so of little use.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4614/39196248595_5a0e2d916e_b.jpg)
Here is the (almost) finished product.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4623/40095357621_0c7653f03d_b.jpg)
For comparison the 3D CAD drawing, with the exception of adding the clamp to mount the ring which was an afterthought which made mounting and aligning the ring a doddle.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4700/25224193207_ffd9d3eed4_b.jpg)
And...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4712/25223292627_279623d3c9_b.jpg)
I intend to have the aluminium parts anodised black, I also intend to calibrate the ring with angles of at least 30º to help repeatability when setting the camera to face up, level or down, which I think will be 30º above and below level.
I have tested the 'nodal' point for the Nikkor 16mm f2.8 Fisheye. The point of zero parallax error, according to my somewhat rough tests, it is perfectly aligned, there appears to be no parallax error, vertically or horizontally.
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An amazing feat so far. Congratulations :D
This is the wet dream for our all dear 'Dr. Lens'. I'm certain he would love to hang out with you !!
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Thank you Bjorn! ;D Eric is most welcome at my shed anytime...
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I might add, I have also made a second rotating arm, slightly shorter for the D300S/D200IR which obviously have a smaller base to lens centre height. However, slightly red-faced :-[ I got the distance 5mm wrong, fortunately too long, so I need to saw 5mm off the arm fo get the nodal point right, in the horizontal plane. It would be better machined to get a perfectly square and flat face so I may have to think about that...
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Very nice ;) Congratulations!
I use a gimball for these movements
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so beautiful :o :o :o
it's a masterpiece! have it anodized for protection and aesthetics 8)
when I was doing these kinds of things, I was using Rhino. autocad and the other one are too technical for me! i was just making CRC parts for toilet fittings ::)
by the way, you can bore holes to make it lighter but maybe thats not part of your design.
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Very nice ;) Congratulations!
I use a gimball for these movements
Thank you Eric, I just found all the offered gimbal and dedicated Pano heads suffered from an attempt, perhaps necessity? to fit every lens and camera combination imaginable. To me that lead to far too many compromises. I don't intend to extend my camera range beyond the D300S/D200IR and D3/D3S, so I don't need to cater for a range of various combinations. That said, the only part which is affected is the bottom arm, which is easy to make, either longer or shorter...
I also like heavy, robust and solid! This head is all of those.
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Congratulations, really impressive work!
You now have an excellent candidate to display in the "Users Showcase" section of the FreeCad forum, there is for instance a continuing thread "From FreeCAD To The Real World" :) .
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Great work here. I must say that the parting off operations would have caused me to have my heart in my mouth.
(Finally Robert, I must now rest my earlier case - George Daniels would have definitely been impressed! ;D)
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Congratulations! What a beautiful project.
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The lathe had been dismantled to make transportation easier. I got the lathe back together pretty well but when I started the freshly overhauled motor, it ran backwards!!! ::) I swapped the two starter winding leads and normal rotation resumed much to my relief and pleasure. ;D
Might be a good idea to have those inputs switchable in the event you make a mistake and want to put the material back on.
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Robert, this is an amazing job! The head looks like and artwork.
From now on, you will be known as Dr. Lathe in this forum, along with Erik a.k.a. Dr. Lens. You rhyme well together.
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Impressive Work
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Congratulations, really impressive work!
You now have an excellent candidate to display in the "Users Showcase" section of the FreeCad forum, there is for instance a continuing thread "From FreeCAD To The Real World" :) .
Thank you Øivind, I will look at that, I was very impressed with FreeCAD, I will definitely use it again for future projects.
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Thank you all for your appreciation, it's taken me a while, with a few distractions along the way. I am very pleased with the result so far. I have to decide how to make the 'click stop' mechanism for the rotation, I have some ideas and will work on that next. It needs to be positive and solid but not disturb the tripod settings when turning to the next position.
It has forced to get my own lathe working, I had a very comprehensive engineering toolkit 15 years ago but when I had to give my lathe up because I had nowhere to house it, I gradually dispersed my tooling which had taken years to acquire. I have very few Morse taper drills and reamers etc, I had boxes of them at one time. I never expected I would ever need them again.
I am looking forward to using the pano head, we have subjects galore around here. Some lovely churches, castles and of course the lakes, gardens and woods.
It's a long way from my original design which was like the Manfrotto head, but I wanted to use the principle of the nodal point at the centre of the movement rather than the outside as is the case with the Manfrotto swing arm type.
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how about the usual bearing ball and spring mechanism found on most lenses :o :o :o
a flimsy leaf spring with opposing slots will be too flimsy for this ::)
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how about the usual bearing ball and spring mechanism found on most lenses :o :o :o
a flimsy leaf spring with opposing slots will be too flimsy for this ::)
Yes, that's my thoughts too, I have some detents taken from a laser printer but I think they will be too flimsy.
I am thinking 8mm ball and a spring behind it. I have a little bronze, am thinking of making a sleeve which would screw into the underside of the swivel arm which would contain the ball and spring. I have a stainless ring which I propose to screw to the top of the base and make some (six) indents with a drill point at regular intervals. That keeps it neat and mostly hidden under the arm. The resistance of the detent is important, it has to be sufficient to stop the camera being blown round in strong winds such as you find at the tops of mountains, but not so strong that it disturbs the tripod when turned. Maybe I will have to make it variable with a screw knob above? Will try fixed for a start.
The angle of cut, depth and size of the indents in the ring will also influence the resistance.
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A fine piece of work! 8)
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Thank you Carl!
Final stage, the Indexing Plate.
Yesterday, having diverted my energies to other things, I am trying to overcome my D3 battery issue. While waiting for eBay to deliver the bits I feel could provide the solution, I thought I better get on and do the final machining stage of the pano head, the indexing plate.
I made the ball retaining sleeve from a little scrap brass, a quarter inch ball bearing and a spring. It was very tricky to drill a tight hole for the ball, yet reduce the diameter to prevent the ball escaping AND have sufficient ball protruding, to engage as fully as possible with the indexing plate.
I was in some trepidation about it, it's a tiny part of the project but a crucial one. I rang my friend and discussed the options, either on his milling machine or my lathe... In the end we decided it would be better to use an indexing head on his milling machine, so I went over to his place. I was too focused on the task to remember to photograph the actual milling but I do have a photo of the setup, taken afterwards.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4748/40147747631_c3bded02af_b.jpg)
The setup was easy, easier than I expected, but the mill doesn't have a quill, the only way of driving the drill into the metal is by raising the table. The table is very heavy (it takes two hands to wind it) and somewhat awkward to raise accurately. I set the depth gauge so the first cut could be repeated but all the cuts are slightly different depths. :( With the relatively flat angle of the drill V, slight differences in depth are magnified in the angle of the cut, the errors are doubled because the slack is diameter, not radius, back and forward.
The result is that three of the locations are positive, click in, nice and tight, no movement. The other three are loose, one very loose. >:( The ones with the black dots are the loose ones.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4626/40147748391_fb4a5e4081_b.jpg)
Somewhat disappointed, on my way home I was trying to think of a solution, since accurate, positive location is crucial to the entire thing. This morning playing around with it and considering the alternatives, I have finally decided to drill the holes right through, at a smaller size, that way I retain the accurate indexing of 60º and the pitch circle radius of the holes, which I think is spot on. I will use a slightly smaller drill than may be indicated, which gives me the option to enlarge the holes if needs be, it's not easy to make them smaller... ;D
Just waiting for it to get a little less cold outside, is raining too, a proper gloomy February day, roll on spring and summer! ;D
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OK, happy now! ;D
I drilled the holes right through with a bit that was slightly smaller than what I thought was ideal. Result, snappy indexing, at the end of the arm, it requires between 1,100 grams and 1,700 grams to move the head out of the detent. None of the detents are 'loose' and they all grip nicely, nice easy fix.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4617/28369198649_6b08daf981_b.jpg)
I did relieve the edges of the holes very slightly, you can see the track where the detent ball slides around the 316 grade stainless steel ring. It's relatively easy now to make other rings with other indexing for narrower lenses or DX format.
Just remains to burnish all the scuffs and scrapes off and send it for anodising next week. I need to think of some way to calibrate the curved rail in degrees above and below horizontal. The indexing table seems the obvious answer.
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Looks much better now for sure :)