NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Martin Zimelka on July 30, 2017, 12:48:16
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Hi all.
I have a Zeiss MP 100/2 ZF, which only has a maximum magnification of 1:2.
I have an option to buy an Nikon PN11 extension tube, but wanted to know whether I could get good results with the following two options...
1)D810 + Zeiss 100/2 + reversed 50mm 1.8D
2)D810 + reversed Zeiss 35/2 ZF
Has anyone tried these or similar combinations? I don't want to reverse mount the 35/2 on the 100/2 since I feel combination will apply too much torque on the D810 lens mount.
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You will get more magnification with reverse mounting than with extension tubes, but reverse mounting is much harder to work with.
If you reverse mount a lens of focal length X onto a lens of focal length Y which is on the camera, the magnification is Y/X. If you reverse mount a lens directly on the camera, the shorter the focal length, the greater the magnification. The catch is that the working distance is very short, which can make it hard to get light on the subject. You have to focus by physically moving the camera, and with the shallow DoF that is demanding to do accurately. I have never tried a 35mm, but I have found that hand-holding a reversed 50mm is OK and a reversed 28 is difficult; a reversed 24mm is maddening. I have never tried it on a proper macro apparatus.
My two cents worth is that reverse mounting is great if you just feel like messing about with lenses, and don't mind a low - or very low - proportion of in-focus shots, but it is not a good technique if you are in a hurry.
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did this some years ago and everything gets more complicated because you have to use focus stacking :o :o :o
at high magnifications, you lose an incredible amount of DOF.
the best for me was to use a EL-Nikkor with bellows ::)
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Thanks for the input...
I want to achieve a high magnification to take images of small inanimate objects, and I imagine 2x is a good starting point.
The cheapest option for me is to simply start with option 1, and get a $5 coupling ring and a step down ring in order to reverse mount my 50mm to my 100 macro.
Depending on how I take to this type of macro work, I'll decide to buy a rail and do focus stacking. The subjects will most likely be ones collected outside and then brought indoors.
But then something in me is wondering whether I should get a rail first and progress later with higher magnifications...
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Thanks for the input...
I want to achieve a high magnification to take images of small inanimate objects, and I imagine 2x is a good starting point.
Depending on how I take to this type of macro work, I'll decide to buy a rail and do focus stacking. The subjects will most likely be ones collected outside and then brought indoors.
But then something in me is wondering whether I should get a rail first and progress later with higher magnifications...
Nikon PB4 is both rail and bellows. Your 35mm should give you much more than 2x mounted on it.
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Here's what it looks like with the ZF 100/2 and a reversed 50/1.8 Ai on the front, first with the ZF100 set at infinity, second w/ the ZF at minimum focus distance. ZF 100 at f/16, 50/1.8 Ai wide open.
I think this 50-on-the-front gag might work better with a 105/4 Micro-Nikkor...
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I think you will not avoid getting a rail or a bellows. The DOF is too small for proper focusing without one. If you are not in a hurry, try getting the old Olympus rail on eBay. They are very sturdy and precise, unlike the Chinese knockoffs. If you choose for the below, as Richard says, for me it is an EL-Nikkor on PB-4 or PB-6. They are really affordable and really good.
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For 2x and beyond, your best bet is to reverse a 50 mm enlarger lens and either using tubes or bellows extend it far enough. They are small lenses with manual apertures, so handling is easy and they don't shade the subject. They are also optimized for closeups. An El-Nikkor 50/2.8 is cheap, easy to obtain and a good starting point.
Another option is to reverse a lens in front of your 100 mm, but it can be tricky to find a good lens to reverse. The Internet may offer some clues for combinations.
Extending the 100 mm lens will work well until 1:1, but the extension gets unwieldy when trying to get beyond that; the Zeiss 100 mm is a large lens and a relatively long focal length.
No idea how well a reversed Zeiss 35/2 will work, the big downside it that it is relatively large, making handling harder and it's not optimized for closeups.
At 2x, you will need a rail or excellent hand holding technique :)
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I think the PN-11 would be a useful option for increasing magnification. With this tube you will achieve magnification ratios between roughly 1:2 - 1:1.
Note that for magnifications nearer the 1:2 end (where the focus ring is set near infinity) the floating elements configured for distance shooting, not macro, so you are likely to encounter some loss of quality such as field curvature, especially towards the edge of the frame. This may not be a problem in practice - macro subjects are usually near the center of the frame and the outer portions of the image are out of focus anyway. Also, macro shooting usually requires stopping well down for depth of field, which largely cures the problem anyway. As you focus closer towards 1:1, the floating elements configure more for closeup shooting, so quality improves. The Nikon AIS 105/2.8 micro is a similar - it is also a 1:2 macro lens with floating elements, and requires the PN-11 for 1:1. It has markings on the barrel showing the recommended aperture to avoid aberrations, starting at f/11 near 1:2 and gradually opening up to f/2.8 towards 1:1.
An advantage of the PN-11 is the built-in rotating tripod mount. When working from a tripod, this this gives you a much better balanced setup and allows you to switch from horizontal to vertical framing while staying on target.
I often use the PN-11 with my AF-D 105/2.8 micro, with this combination I can get magnifications up to about 1.6x life size.
If you want to shoot only a little beyond 1:2, the 27.5mm PK-13 extension tube is worth considering. With this tube you will get magnifications from about 1:4 to 3:4. This is a useful range for subjects such as flowers which are not too small. In the range from 1:2 to 3:4 the lens will be extended further, better optimised for macro shooting than using the PN-11 at the same magnification, so you should expect better IQ.
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To get to 2x with the Zeiss, the first thing I'd try is a combination of the Raynox DCR-250 close-up lens and something like a PK-13. Using Bill Claff's simple calculator I come up with 2.17x with that combination. Here's an example where I reversed a 50mm onto a 105mm VR, but it's at roughly 3.5x:
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Super, thanks everyone.
That was really useful.
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...the best for me was to use a EL-Nikkor with bellows ::)
+1
Think of the distances in an enlarger from the negative carrier to the film. OK, that may not work for some. Anyway if an enlarging lens is designed for 4x to 10x enlargement then reversing it may give good results at 4:1 to 10:1 macro. If a lens is totally symmetrical reversing will make no difference. If the lens is almost symmetrical reversing may or may not help or it might help marginally. The subject distance will be about the same as the distances inside the enlarger. The exact subject distance is controlled by the principle points in the optical design and the degree of bellows or extension tube displacement from the image sensor. Exact distances aren't easy to know unless you do some math and have an accurate schematic of the lens design and the right formulas.
When using a bellows or extension tube always use a genuine Nikon product because the air inside is pure Nikon and superior to other brands! :)
OK, some lenses work well with tubes and bellows and others don't. When moving away from the parameters the lens was designed for the image quality may decline slowly or more rapidly. Not having optical glass in the device is no guaranty of superior performance.
My suggestion is test and find out what works and what doesn't.
Dave Hartman
One can always buy expensive true macro lenses.
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First, define the magnification you desire. Then, work out the easiest way to get there in terms of optical components. Some times an inexpensive cine lens of 16 to 25 mm focal length, and a bellows will suffice. It is as a general rule beneficial to keep to lenses with small image circles and quite narrow field of view as these measures reduce the often severe issue of hot spots or flare.
The ever present issues of vibration, reduced depth of field, diffraction, and loss of contrast cannot be avoided, but at least they can be kept under control for field work if primary magnifications are less than 2-3 X. Added illumination is almost always required and of course is easily set up in a studio. For the field, a ring flash solves many problems and adds a few of its own. The exact same applies to focus stacking.
This fly eye is 16X with a 25 mm lens and a lowly D1. No focus stacking at that time.
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This is a setup for high magnification, up to ~6X, that is robust enough to be used in the field. Basically the system comprises an Olympus OM 38 mm f/2.8 lens head, and two sets of metal Olympus extension tubes in a rugged construction that really can stand up to field challenges (the 65-115mm variable extension tube is on the camera, the shorter 20mm unit is the one with a red rear cap). For indoor and studio work, the Nikon PB-4 Bellows reigns supreme, but it is too awkward and vulnerable to use for many field applications including situations with inclement weather.
I have swapped rear bayonets for Nikon F mounts and added the ubiquitous CPU chips, otherwise the items are as they came off the Olympus production lines some twenty years ago. The larger adapter ring on front of the lens is for the SB-21 ring flash when I require it. The entire outfit is placed on a 'macro rail', in this case a Novoflex that I have used now for 45+ years. It is going on stronger than myself :D
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in case focus stacking is required or desired, there is another way to take a series of photos to stack. instead of moving the camera setup back and forth, you can move your subject instead. this will not apply to lighter things but if you are shooting coins and other stuff then this is also viable :o :o :o
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There is equipment out there nowdays with built in stepper motors that allows the platform holding the subject to be moved closer to or further away from the camera in controlled steps for the purposes of facilitating the gathering of images for stacking. Not inexpensive, but maybe useful for those doing a lot of such work.
in case focus stacking is required or desired, there is another way to take a series of photos to stack. instead of moving the camera setup back and forth, you can move your subject instead. this will not apply to lighter things but if you are shooting coins and other stuff then this is also viable :o :o :o
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Hello. last time i checked it was about $700? :o :o :o
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Up to around 5X, the manual movement using a device such as the Nikon PB-4 bellows or a smooth-moving 'macro' rail is entirely feasible. In fact, that's the approach used for this summer's work by me.
I do have the Stackshot motorised rail, but usually find it introduces a lot of issues on its own (vibration during movement is one of them, lateral movement another). Thus I use it only when the degree of movement is very small and a large number of frames have to be captured. Do add sufficient interval periods before the next frame or you'll end up with a tedious and cumbersome method of getting a totally blurred shot :(
Stackshot is also mainly a studio unit, as it depends on reliable power for its operation. It is imaginable that a mobile setup can be used where the Stackshot is fed from a 12 V DC car battery or similar, though, but I cringe thinking of the associated practicalities and troubles.
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stackshot, thats the name! :o :o :o
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for 5x or greater i use Mitutoyo M-Plan metallurgic infinity corrected objectives and a stackshot rail.. (polarizer at the rear for storage)
(https://nikongear.net/revival/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Fbobfriedman%2Fimage%2F161259958%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=9473f80538b5eafa32f63839d6b65aaf71b2d752)
infinity relay with diopter lens - has the advantage of changing mag by removing tubes.
(https://nikongear.net/revival/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Fbobfriedman%2Fimage%2F160396983%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=72a18b0b2343eac02e9a04f361c6d9e0b5c2ce97)
or a Schneider APO-Componon HM 45mm f/4 Mount = L39, machine lens - reversed
(https://nikongear.net/revival/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Fbobfriedman%2Fimage%2F160396984%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=dd2551c1ad137251b58508ba7c6879cb174b9891)
produces stuff like this..
(https://nikongear.net/revival/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Fbobfriedman%2Fimage%2F160158141%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=d4d6edd9f07dfb11c0cf1f408c616e8fb31a1999)
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Fascinating creature with impressive detail :D
So, do you prefer the simpler approach with a close-up attachment instead of a dedicated ~200 mm lens? I just commenced experimenting with some Nikon microscope objectives and the various 200 mm lenses at my disposal. As my main purpose would be UV, I do need to invest in a UV capable microscope lens which apparently is horribly expensive. Must earn some hard cash first ...
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I am thoroughly impressed :o
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So, do you prefer the simpler approach with a close-up attachment instead of a dedicated ~200 mm lens?
so i tried the Ai Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4 (F-series Ai'D) and the Ai-S Micro-Nikkor 200mm f/4 IF... the latter having some better coatings. turns out that the raynox diopter with the extension tubes was superior in my mind although the Ai-S Micro-Nikkor was not bad either.. the added advantage of changing the mag with the raynox was key for me.. image quality of the following objectives was super.. (the Raynox tube concept was gained from Rik Littlefield over at photomacrography.com)
Mitutoyo M Plan APO 2x NA 0.055 200/0
Mitutoyo M Plan APO 5x NA 0.14 200/0
Mitutoyo M Plan APO 10x NA 0.28 200/0
Mitutoyo M Plan APO 20x NA 0.42 200/0
all APO.. for the D800 i really didn't have enough covering with the Mitutoyo M Plan APO 2x NA 0.055 200/0 so didn't really use it much.. i could also get to 2x other ways.. (e.g. Schneider APO-Componon HM 45mm f/4)
as far as the NUV Mitutoyo lenses.. check eBay... all the lenses above come from there used.
Nikon D800E ,Mitutoyo M Plan APO 5x NA 0.14 200/0, RAYNOX TUBE 170mm bellows extension, 5mm objective extension - aprox 3.9x
245 stack iso100
(https://nikongear.net/revival/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Fbobfriedman%2Fimage%2F161582370%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=b2af3556047a440ec30b06ed7f759993b2dd425e)
Nikon D800E ,Mitutoyo M Plan APO 5x NA 0.14 200/0, RAYNOX TUBE 180mm bellows extension, 5mm objective extension - aprox 4.1x
325 stack iso100
(https://nikongear.net/revival/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbase.com%2Fbobfriedman%2Fimage%2F161341063%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=ee0416b21b9f003cb33c0d5599161c5ae8ed9fd5)
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Thanks for the additional info and excellent images, too.
I'll start with what microscope objectives or Macro-Nikkors and any of the 200 Micro lenses are available to me at present, because the material is already sitting ready for being photographed. This is just a feasibility studio and a pilot to a potential much bigger project lasting for years and funded by the Ministry of Environment. Sufficient working distance is highly important as my plant specimens will be floated in water-filled quartz cuvettes. I reckon about 10X primary magnification is what I should aim for. Fortunately it seems I managed to revive my old fibre optic flash unit. That will ensure the water doesn't begin to boil in a long stacking sequence ...
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the mitutoyo M-plans i listed have a 30mm WD... the metallurgic objectives are designed for front illumination and hence the large WD.. the schneider of course much greater..
of course i have a lot of lenses for macro work... many are on Klaus's web site.. turns out that microscope objectives produced great results and to get to 10x+ mag was quite easy..... i should really sell my luminars etc..
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Those images are fantastic!
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Wonderful work indeed Bob, and yes, stacking with modern infinity Metallurgical APO objectives using a tube lens (or any other good 200mm lens) really has proven to work wonders; quite better than the conservative special macro lenses (Luminars, Macro Nikkors etc. made and used pre-stacking)
Just the StackShot has also proven to be not really precise enough for such type of fine marco work, hence why there are now much better units on the market with sub-micron repettitive precision and slack-free like the StackMaster / StackUnit (no wonder, a german product :LOL:) http://www.stonemaster.eu/products/stackunit (http://www.stonemaster.eu/products/stackunit)
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Wow, amazing work and helpful information!
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It's a race a bit like hi-fi in the former days. Every improvement whether perceived or real ups the ante by a factor significantly greater than one. I surmise the impressive German unit (linked to by Klaus) redefines 'expensive' compared to the Stackshot :D
Thus, a balance has to be struck between expense, practicality, and features. Not all subjects have a well-defined 'hard' surface like insects or gem stones and might not take equally well to focus stacking.
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http://www.stonemaster.eu/products/stackunit (http://www.stonemaster.eu/products/stackunit)
very nice piece.. do they give price?... i couldn't find the EN page. ;)
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Just German, but no problem (for me).
The inquiry form is at http://www.stonemaster.eu/contact/
The complete Stack device was less than I had feared, about 2.500 Euro. However, with a net weight of some 40 kg, I expect shipping cost to be formidable.
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I can second Bob's recommendation, I've successfully used the Mitutoyo 5x for snowflake photography, worked well and being apo was helpful for the times when there was no time to stack. I also like the Apo-Componon 45/4, though I recommended the El-Nikkor 50/2.8 since it's much more common and thus easier and cheaper to acquire and still produces good quality.
For the more budget-sensitive, there's now a new rail from China that I consider getting, http://www.wemacro.com/?product=wemacro-rail
It did get some favorable reviews, though had still things to improve in user friendliness.
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Just completed a 10X sequence of Ruppia maritima leaves apices using the Macro-Nikkor 19 mm f/2.8 and the first of the 200 mm class lenses I found rummaging around which happened to be the AIS 200/4 Micro. Results were in fact very good, and probably in the end limited by the 200 lens. Have to search for the AFD ED Micro next time with such a setup.
I have ordered the Mitutoyo 10X M Plan APO before and am awaiting its arrival.
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I have ordered the Mitutoyo 10X M Plan APO before and am awaiting its arrival.
Congrats! With the 10x M Plan APO it should be possible to cover the sensor while lowering the magnification either by a shorter FL tube lens or shortening the extension. Depending on your applications it can be worth experimenting with that.
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I need 10X with good quality and that is the purpose of getting this specific model. The Macro-Nikkor 19/2.8 is excellent and I'll stick to that alternative for now, until the new lens arrives.
Have to experiment with the 'tube' lens later on.
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I need 10X with good quality and that is the purpose of getting this specific model. The Macro-Nikkor 19/2.8 is excellent and I'll stick to that alternative for now, until the new lens arrives.
Have to experiment with the 'tube' lens later on.
Certainly a very good choice for the time being! Consider using the RAYNOX 250 achromat as a tube lens, a lot of people have ecellent results using that. Bit tricky to mount, but my mechanic (the guy making the StackShot) has special adapters for it on stock, so that is solved already. He doesn't really speak English that well, so I can relay if so needed...
Your ordered 10X Mitutoyo Plan Apo has not RMS but M26 x 36 TPI mount thread, he also has adapter rings for that.
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Consider using the RAYNOX 250 achromat as a tube lens, a lot of people have ecellent results using that.
my setup using a Raynox 150 for tube/relay lens.. reverse mounted of course.
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=143195#143195
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my setup using a Raynox 150 for tube/relay lens.. reverse mounted of course.
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=143195#143195
Now this is quite some "macro cannon" Bob!! ;-)
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Now this is quite some "macro cannon" Bob!! ;-)
but as you see.. the Raynox 150 is more manageable.. which is the path i took. my ideas came from this page by Rik.
you just added tubes until i could get infinity focus really.. also looked at the Mitutoyo microscope specs from the web page.
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Sorry for the newbie question: are there any advantages in using the Raynox instead of the Nikon 3T or 4T?
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Sorry for the newbie question: are there any advantages in using the Raynox instead of the Nikon 3T or 4T?
The specified tube lens focal length for the Mitutoyos is 200 mm, which is pretty close to that of the Raynox DCR-150 (4.8 diopters or about 208 mm), whereas the 3T and 4T are not powerful enough, the more powerful 4T having a focal length of about 345mm.
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If 200mm is the one to use with the Mitsutoyo, Kenko (should be branded Hoya outside Japan) AC closeup lens No.5 is the one. Its focal length is exactly 200mm.
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The specified tube lens focal length for the Mitutoyos is 200 mm, which is pretty close to that of the Raynox DCR-150 (4.8 diopters or about 208 mm)
this is the other reason..
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If 200mm is the one to use with the Mitsutoyo, Kenko (should be branded Hoya outside Japan) AC closeup lens No.5 is the one. Its focal length is exactly 200mm.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that product. I assume it's this one: https://www.amazon.com/Kenko-Close-Up-Lens-52mm-Achromatic-Lens/dp/B001CN3GVE
As a side note, I've noticed that locally there are both Kenko and Hoya branded products, with the premium filters all being Hoya.
I also discovered that Marumi offers a similar product: https://www.amazon.com/Marumi-Macro-Achromat-Achromatic-Filter/dp/B003DIR5DQ/
I have no idea how these compare to the Raynox. The Raynox has a very good reputation and they boast a 3-element design. I'm under the impression that most competitors have 2-element designs, but naturally only real world results determine which is the best alternative. It would be interesting to see how these compare.
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The Kenko one you linked is the same one as mine. Marumi is another famous brand for the filter but I don't think they grind the lenses themselves. Apparently it is the OEM by Kenko.
Good thing about these AC closeup lenses is that the optical elements are held by the threaded retaining rings instead of the springy rings. You can reverse-mount the lens more easily with much less danger of scratching the element during the job.
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I also heard that the RAYNOX is a cemeted 3-element design, which should explain why it is so praised!!
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some more raynox info from threads on photomacrography.com
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=175487#175487
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=126290#126290
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18145
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I also heard that the RAYNOX is a cemeted 3-element design, which should explain why it is so praised!!
Klaus, according to the website of Raynox, both DCR-150 and -250 are of 2G3E design. So, two elements are cemented.
Bob, the additional info is interesting. Thanks!
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According to Kenko, AC Closeup lenses No.2 (500mm) and No.3 (330mm) can be combined to make a No.5 of 2G4E design. In order to calculate the exact combined focal length, you need to know the distances between the lenses screwed together, which is not given on their website. I don't know whether their calculation is exact or rounded.
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using the thin lens formula it works out to be almost 200mm 1/f = 1/f1 + 1/f2
the only missing term is subtracted -d/f1*f2 where d = distance between them -- this term is very small