NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: MILLIREHM on January 19, 2017, 22:33:11
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Officially the 10 mm f/5,6 OP-Fisheye is not compatible with modern camera. Due to Bjørn`s research we know that it is indeed usable on cameras with mirror up function, as the mirror returns to up position when there is an obstacle detected. Also should work with live view.
Are there any Nikon digital bodies where this approach is known not to work?
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There could be restraints with a DX body if it has the small mirror/mirror-box, but just guessing,,,
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Not to my knowledge. At least for DX or FX cameras. My 10 OP has worked with them all. I prefer to use a relay system for the DX models though so the image is circular and not cut top and bottom.
Using the 10 OP on the CX format models with the FT-1 is prevented by the shape of the long protruding rear end of the lens. Other mirrorless ranges work with any run-of-the-mill 'F' adapter.
it might be relevant to mention that the 10 OP is one of the rarer and esoteric Nikkors and probably not much more than around 700 units were made.
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An example with the Nikon D3S and the 10 OP.
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Thanks for the answers and the pic
Got my sample yesterday. Quickly tried it on the D700 where it worked as expected, the Mirror box of the D200 appears to be rather narrow so i dont wanted to be uncautious, not sure whether this will work need to be less tired, will try other bodies later.
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Bjørn, does the rear element protrude from the mount of the adapter when you attach it onto, say, an F to m4/3 adapter?
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Congratulations, this is a unique lens so treat it carefully. The front element is quite soft and needs extra attention.
Pulled an archive picture to show a non-retrofocus fisheye on a DX camera. This is the 7.5 mm f/5.6 on a D40x, but these old lenses have almost identical rear protrusions.
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Bjørn, does the rear element protrude from the mount of the adapter when you attach it onto, say, an F to m4/3 adapter?
Yes and no. Perhaps 1-2 mm at most reach beyond the mounting flange of the m4/3 mount. No problem attaching the lens + F adapter to any m473 camera though.
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Akira, its protruding 2,8 cm wihtout adapter if that is helpful
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Akira, its protruding 2,8 cm wihtout adapter if that is helpful
See my earlier answer to Akira. These old lenses mount trouble-free on any m4/3. Not tested on Sony or Fuji, but probably they behave in a similar manner.
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Wolfgang, to alleviate your fears about the 10 OP mounting on the D200, here is the 7.5 on the same camera. The image circle will be cut top and bottom, otherwise no issue.
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Bjørn and Wolfgang, thanks for the info on the protrusion! Wolfgang, hope you enjoy this unique lens and perhaps share some results here!
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Bjørn and Wolfgang, thanks for the info on the protrusion! Wolfgang, hope you enjoy this unique lens and perhaps share some results here!
thanks Akira for this wonderful picture will not achieve similar results soon.
I will enjoy it, hope I will have shooting opportunity on weekend
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In some ways, the 10 OP is more "pictorial" than the remainder of the Fisheye crowd, due to its unique orthographic projection. This renders the centre of the frame much larger than the other fisheyes. It furthermore projects a somewhat smaller image circle around 21.6 mm compared to the more normal 23 mm of the 7.5/5.6 and 8/2.8.
An example is given below; my rear deck in winter with 7.5 mm f/5.6 and 10 OP , respectively, on a D3S. Images were captured with a hand-held camera thus registration is not perfect between the frames, but one gets the general idea of their behaviour.
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Out of curiosity Wolfgang, may I ask for the serial number of your lens? they are as stated before rare optics and I guess filling any gap in the serials would be appreciated by Roland Vink et al.
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Serial # is 180142, so it is within the first series on Rolands page
I will post pics of the lens the upcoming days, and yes I plan to treat it carefully
Good night and thanks
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Looks like a blast to use! Bjørn, #10 is excellent. Would love to see it as a well size print!
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Not to my knowledge. At least for DX or FX cameras. My 10 OP has worked with them all. I prefer to use a relay system for the DX models though so the image is circular and not cut top and bottom.
Bjørn, have you found any way to safely mount the Nikkor-O 21/4 on Nikon DSLRs? Would it be possible to use an extension tube followed by a relay lens? I know we're cautioned against mounting this lens on bodies after the F2. As I understand it this is because these bodies lack a tab that keeps this breech-lock lens from rotating during mounting. If the lens rotate this damages the locked-up mirror due to the tight tolerances involved.
I just now tried fooling around with a few lenses of the same extended-rear non-retrofocus configuration.
Unfortunately, my Canon FL 19/3.5 will not fit either of my FD to μ4/3 lens adapters due to a protruding screw inside the mount. It also won't mount on my "BH" FD to F non-optical converter.
I tried to mount my Nikkor 21/4 on my Fotodiox and Voigtlander F to μ4/3 lens adapters and those wouldn't work either. My Voigtlander 15mm/4.5 (F-mount, design inspired by the 21/4) adapts just fine via a Fotodiox adapter and works on a μ4/3 camera, though I'm not sure what the point of this particular combination would be given the huge crop involved.
I'll have to try putting these F-mount lenses on my A6000 as soon as I can find the adapter I misplaced. I didn't try mounting them on my Speed Boosters. ;D
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The Nikkor-O 21mm f/4 is definitely best left on a shelf, of course you could use a relay but the resulting image would suffer even more than the bare lens, there are so many other 20mm lenses to play with ;)
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Oh dear.
NEVER EVER THINK OF MOUNTING THE 21/4 NIKKOR-O
on any camera except Nikon F, F2, or late Nikkormats
It will mount on a mirrorless model through the appropriate adapter, however, performance is quite poor.
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Looks like a blast to use! Bjørn, #10 is excellent. Would love to see it as a well size print!
Ditto. #10 is a very cool and interesting composition indeed.
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Thank you, Erik and Bjørn, for your responses. I have been very careful to never attempt to mount this lens on any SLR (film or digital) other than an F2. I suspect the poor performance on mirrorless cameras is due at least in part to ray angle issues, given the small size of the rear element and its proximity to the sensor.
I may need to get out a roll of film here.
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The 21/4 did very well on film. Tackled strong light sources in exceptional manner too.
My German Shepherd sticking his nose where he shouldn't.
(Nikon S3, 2.1 cm f/4 Nikkor-O)
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Here is a pic of the 10 mm f/5,6 OP-Fisheye with its special viewfinder for the F/F2
and another one in comparison to the 8 mm f/2,8 and 16 mm f/2,8 Fisheye lenses
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The Fisheye- Lens Group attached to bodies
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Looking forward to 10 OP photos taken with your DSLRs :D
The 10 OP looks almost mint. Good on you.
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First test shots
10 mm compared to 8mm (bigger circle)
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#4 10 mm OP Fisheye
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Here is 10 OP on the Nikon Df. The lens is surprisingly sharp.
The advantage with this approach is of course you can, and ought to, use LiveView for framing. My 10 OP is (surprise, surprise ...) equipped with a CPU, thus exposures are spot on.
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#5 OP Fisheye all shots taken with the D800E
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Looking forward to 10 OP photos taken with your DSLRs :D
The 10 OP looks almost mint. Good on you.
Uploaded a few in the meantime
It was sold as mint, in fact there is some very tiny mark on the rear lens that would not reduce joy so I'd call it near mint
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So you confirm the 10 OP can indeed be used on a modern camera ... great.
Not easy to ascertain sharpness on these test images, though. If the internal filters are dirty, flare outside the image circle easily arises.
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Here is 10 OP on the Nikon Df. The lens is surprisingly sharp.
The advantage with this approach is of course you can, and ought to, use LiveView for framing. My 10 OP is (surprise, surprise ...) equipped with a CPU, thus exposures are spot on.
Fine pic
I indeed use life view. But surprise surprise ;-) the lens is not equipped with a CPU so I am adjusting the lens settings manually.
My chipping project still due and will start with other lenses first
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So you confirm the 10 OP can indeed be used on a modern camera ... great.
so far it works on FX bodies, with DX it is very narrow so if it works it needs a lot of care
Not easy to ascertain sharpness on these test images, though. If the internal filters are dirty, flare outside the image circle easily arises.
Images are downsized, was not too much light and handheld so sharpness could be improved
havent done a lot with te filter revolver so far
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The NG Community simply amasses rare Nikkors. Thus we have at least 2 out of some 700 units of this rarely seen lengend.
Are there more of these lenses found within the NG audience?
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The NG Community simply amasses rare Nikkors.
True
also true for the Voigtländer 125 mm Apo Macro Lanthar, but that poll probably should be reserved for another thread
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For DX I initially used a relay system to shrink the image circle to fit inside the smaller DX frame. This had the added advantage of providing a (narrow) range of focusing the lens. The 10 OP is natively a fix-focus design.
A few examples areas follows;
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probably would need to search a few additional K and BR rings to imitate your relay system
and maybe continue search for a
Repro-Nikkor 85 mm f/1.0 as well (58 mm and 35 mm have worked as well according to your description)
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You could use the 50/1.2 and 35/1.4 (or f/2). This combination, in conjunction with a focusing stage, works pretty well as relay for the old fisheyes. Do note only lightweight fisheyes should be used lest the strain on the focusing mounts and filter threads be excessive.
Getting the elusive (and expensive) Repro-Nikkor 85/1 solely for use as a relay is true overkill. Of course, if you have such a lens floating around, by all means do use it though.
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You could use the 50/1.2 and 35/1.4 (or f/2). This combination, in conjunction with a focusing stage, works pretty well as relay for the old fisheyes. Do note only lightweight fisheyes should be used lest the strain on the focusing mounts and filter threads be excessive.
Havent got the 50/1,2 but the 58 mm Noct and both 35 mm lenses. Evident that the strain needs to be limited, so nothing for the really heavy 8 mm. I wondered how lightweight the 10mm OP Fisheye actually is, I had expected it to be a bit bigger and heavier.
Getting the elusive (and expensive) Repro-Nikkor 85/1 solely for use as a relay is true overkill.
If i ever get it it wont be just limited to relay duties, dont worry
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Would it be possible to use a a relay lens in combination with a "shaved" Nikkor 10.5/2.8 DX to get a full circular image on an FX camera?
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Would it be possible to use a a relay lens in combination with a "shaved" Nikkor 10.5/2.8 DX to get a full circular image on an FX camera?
Probably, but available scale factors are limited by the focal ratio of the lenses of the relay module. Around 0.7X (or 1.4X if the module is reversed) is easy.
Combining two images taken with the 10.5mm and camera rotated 90 degrees between them will suffice, and is far easier to implement.
Here is a 10.5 mm capture on Nikon D750 (FX).
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Here is a 10.5 mm capture on Nikon D750 (FX).
Oh, I haven't expected that you have D750. ::)
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Not my camera, probably 'retrieved' it from Jakov on a shoot in Delft, The Netherlands. The 10.5 just 'happened' to be on the camera :D
I have tested the D750 and didn't like it.
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Not my camera, probably 'retrieved' it from Jakov on a shoot in Delft, The Netherlands.
Ah, ha, that makes sense. :)
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Probably, but available scale factors are limited by the focal ratio of the lenses of the relay module. Around 0.7X (or 1.4X if the module is reversed) is easy.
Combining two images taken with the 10.5mm and camera rotated 90 degrees between them will suffice, and is far easier to implement.
Here is a 10.5 mm capture on Nikon D750 (FX).
Thanks Bjørn,
I am aware of this technique which is of course great for completely still targets. For targets with some motion a relay lens could be a benefit. Could you give an example of what lens and extension combination could achieve the 0.7X needed. How about a reversed 20/3.5 ? I haven't yet completely understood the merits and metrics of using relay lenses.
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A single lens usually is insufficient as a relay option, unless there is a need for massive increase in image magnification. In this case the secondary lens simply magnifies the *real* image projected by the primary lens thus it ends up rotated 180 degrees on the recording camera. An example of this might be upscaling small-format cine optics to match an FX camera. Thus, I do have a set up for a Canon 6.5 mm f/1.8 cine lens ('D' mount made for the tiny double-8 cine format) that projects nicely onto FX, using a 19 mm f/2.8 Macro-Nikkor as a scaling agent.
The relay acts in principle to alter the conjugate distances for the primary lens. Thus it "transports" the image over some additional distance to a (more convenient) location in which the image can be recorded. The relay module may alter scale of the final image, a feature usually desirable when working with fisheye lenses on different format cameras. Using two lenses in tandem (facing each other frontally) facilitates more advanced matching of the primary lens to a given format than available for the single-lens option.