NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Processing & Publication => Topic started by: John G on October 09, 2016, 11:34:34
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After reading with enthusiasm Bjorns thread about his learning to get his SB800 Speedlight to fully interface with a Non Nikon Body.
Congratulations to him for his pursuit and getting the outcome he wished for.
I have been looking into how to get the most of my SB800 Speedlights when used with a D800E.
I have no intention of using these on camera, but feel realistically that many opportunities will be staged using a Camouflage Hide as a position for the camera body. My wish to do work with my set up in the low winter light is my goal. With the addition of sheep on our land we are noticing a frequent visit from a variety of wild life, with Deer and Buzzard being very settled around the Sheep paddocks.
I can set up a hide in various positions, and feel I could get quite close to the Subjects, I would like to start at about 30 metres and work my way into a closer proximity using a Camouflage Mesh Screen as a cover. The Buzzards are sharp eyed and it will take time to overcome their aloofness. They let me get to about 75 metres when I have my binoculars in hand. I can also visit the hides on my local
Nature Reserves and set up a flash array outside.
That is the general intention of usage.
I have seen the Nikon Creative Lighting and set up my system indoors and had it working to 12 metres. I have used it to about 5 outdoors.
I am not saying it failed beyond these distances, that is the approx distance I have used it at. There are a variety of reports that it is not consistent as a trigger and the effectiveness of the trigger, due to the signal being IR, will be effected by ambient light ?
I have investigated much of the presented support in Bjorns thread and have come to learn that a Radio Signal as a trigger is much more dependable and works over large distances.
Top of the range devices will work at 1000 metres. Lower Range devices will work at 200 metres.
I have been doing my usual market searches and assessing my purchase options for a Radio Trigger System and it would seem that the Pocket Wizard TT1 and TT5 in partnership are very well liked, the Phottix Ares/TTL are well liked at the more affordable for me pricing.
I would be willing to purchase a used System if the asking price is acceptable.
Any offerings on how I can best support my off camera flash will be very well received.
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John,
First I think you'll need to decide on manual flash or TTL. If manual you'll need to decide on simple fire now or flash power control from the camera or only at the speedlight. Since you will be in a blind or hide I think the answer is pretty easy. you need control from the camera.
I'd look at Phottix Oden II. I'd see if the range is sufficient. I believe it will be easier to use. It is compatible with you Nikon SB-800(s) and LumoPro LP180R(s) and offers TTL and manual control from the camera with these speedlights. It will "fire now" Phottix Strato II receivers. The LP180R(s) have Odin and Strato II receivers built in.
I don't own an Odin system but I'd like to. I own the Strato II system and an pleased with it. Besides triggering speedlight I'm very pleased with it for remote triggering my D800. I can't recommend the Strato II for use from a blind because it's fire now trigger system with no power control from the camera.
The Pocket Wizard TTL with manual control from the camera, as I read is a bit finicky about power up sequence with more features and a higher price. I gather it the best for a wedding photographer. It's well out of my price range.
For extreme range in a fire now, manual trigger system I'd like the Pocket Wizard Plus IV. The configuration is like the Strato II with 4 groups but more range, more channels and a repeater fiction. I don't think it's best for a blind as flash power can't be set from the camera.
There is photographer named Jerry P. H. at ...
https://www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/
...he knows the Pocket Wizard system very well. I'd give him PM.
Best,
Dave Hartman
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Thank you David
. The Phottix Odin is a model I looked into late yesterday. It appears to do much of what I believe I will need.
Flash usage is a new investigation for me, so I hope to achieve the correct supporting control system from the start,
then progress in understanding and applying it to my photography.
All the links supplied in Bjorns thread have been very good.
What is nice to know is that there is another level of creativity that can be introduced to a very addictive .
I will attempt to PM your suggested person tonight.
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Different approach, but much better in my opinion...
Profoto B1 or B2
(TTL, better color output, quicker recharge, higher power... less portable, bigger, heavier), but, again, better in the long run.
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The Profoto is new to me. It commands a very high purchase price. More than I could justify.
As a used item, it is still holding a high market value.
I have read up on it a little, it appears to be a very high end model.
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Indeed they are expensive, but give them a look, you'll be surprised.
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How do you manage the weight of the Profoto head in the field? I find the most annoying part to have to carry sand bags to keep the stand upright (on top of everything else), when I'm using battery powered studio flash outdoors. And even then sometimes there is damage if it is even slightly windy, but I use largeish modifiers with my flash.
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I use the B1s, that are really no feather weight at 3.2Kgs, but the light quality and power they deliver is really worth.
In the field depends of type of work. If fashion, portrait on location, sand bags are the rule (a pain to carry in fact), and I carry everything on an Eckla Beach rolly cart. Normally 3 bags for each tripod/stand. Outdoors I tend to use only zoom reflectors and beauty dishes (profoto OCF ones), as they provide the most real to mix light with the sun. So, no big modifiers, meaning no big wing catchers, but almost all the time, 1 assistant comes with me, so...
If alone only one B1, if I antecipate windy days, and with zoom heads. They provide a good light quality not being too much wind catchers.
Sometimes, when light boxes are needed, just use campying polles and spikes to hold everything where it should. Photo tripods, can be handy, instead of studio ones, as they provide a larger footprint.
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I would think that a speedlight with 200mm illumination pattern would work well for wildlife. A studio flash is designed to spread the light evenly in every direction to fill large modifiers evenly (especially the indirect kind). An SB-5000 has the optics built in to produce a narrow cone of light. One can control it e.g. a D500 with radio. I am not saying a larger flash would not work; I just haven't read about wildlife application of them and what kind of modifier to use.
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I would think that a speedlight with 200mm illumination pattern would work well for wildlife. A studio flash is designed to spread the light evenly in every direction to fill large modifiers evenly (especially the indirect kind). An SB-5000 has the optics built in to produce a narrow cone of light. One can control it e.g. a D500 with radio. I am not saying a larger flash would not work; I just haven't read about wildlife application of them and what kind of modifier to use.
Towards wildlife there's a very interesting report on the profoto website/blog/B1.
The very well thought design of both the B1 and B2 are quite adapted to wildlife as the lamp is already recessed and has, becasuse of that, some sort of deflector already. Note that the hard modifiers like the zoom ones, and again because of the design, can be moved in or out, making the focus wider or narrow. I haven't yet use them (but I intend to) for wildlife, but either their OCF snoot or the zoom reflector should be ideal. The speed of them will let you freeze the movement with ease, and better than with a speedlight.
But I still have to prove that they can beat a speedlight with a beamer. My feeling is of course, but a price has to be paid... portability. In this case the B2 will be the better choice.
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Can you buy "telephoto" reflectors?
A Better Beamer is just a Fresnel lens with an adapter. A Fresnel lens can be fitted to a studio flash like a square acetate filter. There would be some trial and error or I'm sure one could calculate the focal length of Fresnel lens needed. Perhaps someone here knows how to calculate for a typical application and give us an example?
Dave
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Can you buy "telephoto" reflectors?
A Better Beamer is just a Fresnel lens with an adapter. A Fresnel lens can be fitted to a studio flash like a square acetate filter. There would be some trial and error or I'm sure one could calculate the focal length of Fresnel lens needed. Perhaps someone here knows how to calculate for a typical application and give us an example?
Dave
Correct, and profoto offers fresnel lenses as well, no experience on them, thought.
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I'm an early adapter of the PW TT5 (I have several of them, didn't buy the TT1 because of the less convenient battery, the TT5 takes simple AA's) started buying my first units when they became available in 2009 (?)
Like them very much, despite the high price tag (although that has been next to constant since the introduction over here)
With regards to that price tag, at the time of their introduction there were no cheap, Chinese knock off, alternatives, so that simply was something that had to be taken accepted
Use them in TTL and Manual mode with the AC5 zone controller, and a SU800 (the original CLS infra red commander unit), so switching between Manual and TTL is, if desired, a piece of cake.
Ditto with setting the 'correct' power output (in Manual mode), and getting the exposure (in TTL mode) correct ( when shooting in TTL mode you can on top of the AC5/SU800 use the in camera flash exposure compensation function to fine tune that - I use the TT5's with SB800's on my D3 and D800's for event and catwalk - )
The reason that I use SB800's instead of Pro Foto's is similar to why I bought the TT5's, Pro Foto's simply weren't around yet at the moment I needed/started buying powerfull TTL flashlights (used Metz 60CT4 on my film camera's and older DSLR's)
That said, major considerations for me for not 'upgrading' also were/are the considerable difference in overall price, bulk/weight, and reliability of the TTL metering.
A 2 heads Profoto B1 location kit will set me back Eur 3569 in the Netherlands, on top of which I will also need to purchase an Air Remote unit for an additional Eur 349
At the moment I have, bought over the course of something like 8 years, 6 SB800's for about Eur 1200, 6 TT5 for about Eur 1100, an AC5 for Eur 65 and two 2 Godox 960 powerpacks and (4) cables for about Eur 360, so in total still quite a bit less, and since purchased of a longer period, much less strenuous on my finances.
And of course a single B1 weighs in at about 3 kg
The Nikon TTL is next to flawless as far as my experiences are concerned, with plenty of fast and easy fixes/options for further fine tuning just in case.
While the compared to a B1 lower output per speed light is not a real world problem for me (even my 500 Ws Bowens studio units I never use at full power).
And if I do need more power, I just add another SB800 (I at occasion have shot very badly lit catwalks shows with 4 SB800's/TT5's and additional PB960's mounted on a lightstand, enabling me to still shoot in TTL mode despite despite the 100 feet long catwalk)
Also just one SB00 can be taken along as just a small 'extra' in a small camera bag together with a camera and a lens, eg when taking a camera along 'just in case' or to a intimate family event like a birthday (not everone wants to be the party pooping 'uncle with the big camera, lens and flashlight') and of course if things do break down, I have plenty room for just picking another/spare unit (flash and/or remote)
Don't use the SB800's with fresnel adapters like the Better Beamer, so can't commend on that
But that said, he 'spread' of the light of a SB800 can also be aimed to a smaller area (just disable the 'zoom' function of the flash, and manually fix that at 105mm), and I also always have a couple of Flashbenders in my bag when I take a 'full' f;ash set up with me.
The 'start up' procedure for a speedlight/TT5 set is pretty simple/basic (just top to bottom, first the speedlight - that is/should be mounted in the hotshoe on the TT5, then the remote, et voila, you're done)
I have read very positive reports on the Phottix Odin units, basically do the same as well as the TT5's (definitely would consider them if I were to start from scratch today)
If you are 100% dedicated to shooting in Manual Mode, I would also recommend to just buy the 'dumber' PW units like the PW Plus III etc (but you teh allso would not need to invest in a Pro Foto set as well, even a golden oldie like the Mezt 60CT4 in manual mode would do then)
My 2 cents
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:)
One uses what suits the best... budget/portability/convenience/comfort zone.
I like to try different things, challenge my comfort zones, and see if can be done in a better way.
Profoto experience just blow my SB's collection out of the way, they just perform much better. And their TTL is awesome. I tend to use it, even in studio, much more...
Comparing to speed lights; are they easy to carry? No; Are they expensive? Yes, but much less than expected in the long run; Do they produce better result? Yes, hands down; Are they equally easy to setup? Much easy, with power to spare; Are they up to the job in all situations? None are, but I rely much more on them.
That said, 1 or 2 SBs continue to find space in my bags...
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It would seem that at present I am down to the Pocket Wizard and Phottix as the two systems usable for me.
I am attempting to buy a used pair of TT5 and a TT1, just waiting a response from the vendor.
All the time spent offering me support is very well received and appreciated.
Whilst investigating the Odin vs Pocket Wizard on YouTube, I came across a Phottix Odin capable of operating remotely a Canon 380EX flash.
I do not know much about these flashes apart from they can be bought very cheaply. I hope this bit of info might offer a option for a cheaper light source to those who know the capabilities of this flash model.
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I do not have any experience with those brands, but try to gather more knowledge on them, especially if they produce consistently the same color temp.
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I came across a Phottix Odin capable of operating remotely a Canon 380EX flash.
I highly doubt that a Phottix Odin or Odin II for Nikon will control a Canon 380EX. The only system I've read about that will control various brands of speedlight is the Cactus V6 but I'm quite sure it's manual flash power from the camera but not TTL.
Dave
Again I own use the Phottix Strato II system but have only read about the others.
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I have seen the Odin trigger the Canon 380EX on the Northrupps Youtube page.
They are comparing four radio trigger systems.
I am not sure of the amount of control the Odin has on the Canon flash, but it was firing the flash quite successfully.
It might be worth a look at, as they have two systems on there that have not been mentioned in this thread.
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The Phottix Odin offers the same kind of functionality (with a, similar to a SU800 or AC5, Transmitter and Control Unit with separate groups and four different channels with A:B ratio, TTL/Manual, second curtain sync, zoom and other options governable right from it) when used with Canon (and Nikon) speedlights as the PW's TT1/TT5's do with Nikon's, and reportedly (no personal experience) are just as robust and reliable
As far as the latter is concerned, the PW's (again reportedly, but by many reliable sources) didn't work well with (some?) Canon speedlights, and even required special (AC5) socks to improve that (confirming the reports mentioned were correct)
Not a Canon user, so not a matter of personal interest, but of course I'm curious whether the Odin's work better then the PW TT1/TT5's in that regard
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The supporting radio triggers I have aquired for my 2 x SB800 Speedlights are a Pocket Wizard TT1 + 2X TT5 + AC3.
On another note, the understanding of flash photography, along with the many variations of set ups, is proving quite difficult to comprehend and holding onto information from tutorials is proving a trial.
I intend on capturing wildlife subjects whilst in a hide, using off camera flash in fading light, with flash units positioned to make the light on a pre determined focal point create a improved exposure. Can this really be so mind boggling :-\
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Try contacting this guy...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/10118472@N05/
Try asking questions on the Strobist.com group at Flickr...
https://www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/
Jerry P. H. knows the Pocket Wizards very well.
I hope this helps,
Dave Hartman
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Or just continue asking questions here.
When learning to use flash it will likely be easier to learn if you just focus on a single setup. One camera + one flash + ambient light, all adjustments made manually.
Once you understand that you are dealing with two separate exposures, the flash exposure and the ambient light exposure, it is simply a balancing act between the two to work out the effect/exposure you desire. Once you have that down move on to light placement, light source size, & introducing more lights.
The flash exposure is tied to your aperture, ambient light exposure is tied to your shutter setting, ISO settings will effect both.
So you've stated what it is you want to do, what trouble are you having in getting there?
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Thank you David and Charlie
David offered his advice before, but I completely forgot to follow up on it, many apologies for this.
Charlie, I need to take a time out for myself and dedicate a time to learn how to interact with the menu and setting options
confidently, I can't recall much that was learnt when out in the field and away from a information source.
The preferred tutorial at present is the Blue Crane Nikon Speedlight SB800.
The memory lapse was very evident at the Classic Car Show I attended on the Weekend.
To help with this I have been searching for a one to one tuition reasonably local to me.
I intend on making the most of this new discipline, so expect to see some images soon in critique. The shared observations
of other members has been a great motivator for me, encouraging changes to my basic techniques.
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Once you understand that you are dealing with two separate exposures, the flash exposure and the ambient light exposure, it is simply a balancing act between the two to work out the effect/exposure you desire. Once you have that down move on to light placement, light source size, & introducing more lights.
Once the shutter speeds get shorter than the T0.1 and T0.5 flash duration the shutter speed effects both. The Pocket Wizard system John bought allows going beyond point where shutter speed does not affect the flash exposure. With the SB-800 and most any similar speedlight a shutter speed of 1/250th causes shading of the top of the frame at full and half power as the flash duration is longer than 1/250th. At 1/4 power and less this doesn't happen because of the way IGBT circuits truncate the flash duration making the difference between T0.1 and T0.5 flash durations mute.
Anyway I'm suggesting Jerey P.H. mostly for his technical knowledge of the Pocket Wizards here though I'm fully certain his practical knowledge of flash is fully up to par.
Dave
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Once the shutter speeds get shorter than the T0.1 and T0.5 flash duration the shutter speed effects both. The Pocket Wizard system John bought allows going beyond point where shutter speed does not affect the flash exposure. With the SB-800 and most any similar speedlight a shutter speed of 1/250th causes shading of the top of the frame at full and half power as the flash duration is longer than 1/250th. At 1/4 power and less this doesn't happen because of the way IGBT circuits truncate the flash duration making the difference between T0.1 and T0.5 flash durations mute.
Anyway I'm suggesting Jerey P.H. mostly for his technical knowledge of the Pocket Wizards here though I'm fully certain his practical knowledge of flash is fully up to par.
Dave
Well it's no wonder he's confused with posts like that :o
You could go your whole life without knowing what t.5/t.1 and IGBT terminology means and still make great photographs. That said I think you just taught me how they achieve high speed sync these days, so thanks for that, always was curious. (I just looked up what t.5/t.1 & IGBT is 8) )
Anyway, John's posts suggest that he is not at all familiar with using flash so it seems best to first learn the basics and not start with the ins and outs of a more advanced high speed sync triggering system, no?
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Charlie is correct, pure basics at present are required.
I will eventually become familiar with the more advanced set ups.
PW's have been delivered. I can now begin my journey into off camera flash, with a worthy set of tools.
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Here are a few examples of a recent catwalk shot with a D800 (+2.8/70-200 VR2, ISO 1600 f5,0, flash TTL, Matrix Mode), using two SB800's off camera, on a lightstand, with TT5's, with a TT5 on camera, no SU800 or AC3 Controller (I was being lazy)
Location was virtually dark, without any kind of stage lighting (just a few small ceiling mounted spotlights, like you find in a bar)
Nevertheless no AF Assist lights of any kind (on camera or speedlight) used, still the D800 stood its ground (well)
Pictures intentionally kept somewhat underexposed during the shoot (on camera EFC around -1 to -2/3 stops) shadows (in particular background, which other wise would be pitchblack, with consequently harsh black shadows) recovered in post (using just NX 2.4.6)
Color temperature similarly kept on the warm side in post (colored models, so trying to get the skintones 'correct'/resembling 'causasian' would obviously be completely off mark)
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Thank you Paul
I will have proper look on the computer later at our work.
When I get to grips with the SB 800 menu,
I will try your setting choices.
I have a 15metre hallway that I have been practicing in.
I can control the ambient light naturally, from mid darkness to black.
I then can illuminate the space as well.
So a good working distance although with a width restriction.
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Here are a few examples of a recent catwalk shot with a D800 (+2.8/70-200 VR2, ISO 1600 f5,0, flash TTL, Matrix Mode), using two SB800's off camera, on a lightstand, with TT5's, with a TT5 on camera, no SU800 or AC3 Controller (I was being lazy)
Location was virtually dark, without any kind of stage lighting (just a few small ceiling mounted spotlights, like you find in a bar)
Nevertheless no AF Assist lights of any kind (on camera or speedlight) used, still the D800 stood its ground (well)
Pictures intentionally kept somewhat underexposed during the shoot (on camera EFC around -1 to -2/3 stops) shadows (in particular background, which other wise would be pitchblack, with consequently harsh black shadows) recovered in post (using just NX 2.4.6)
Color temperature similarly kept on the warm side in post (colored models, so trying to get the skintones 'correct'/resembling 'causasian' would obviously be completely off mark)
I feel that he shadow is very much distracting in the first shot. I would keep the flash on camera and bounce it, soften it up and go higher in ISO like 3.200 and stop down to 2.8 the adjust the BG light with the shutter speed to desired levels
Why underexpose?
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I feel that he shadow is very much distracting in the first shot. I would keep the flash on camera and bounce it, soften it up and go higher in ISO like 3.200 and stop down to 2.8 the adjust the BG light with the shutter speed to desired levels
Why underexpose?
Bounce was not an option, the ceiling was painted black
Similarly the back ground was, apart from the spill light from the foyer, deprived of any type of serious lighting, so bumping up the ISO and opening the lens would not have mattered .
And of course 2.8 would mean loss of DoF, which considering the already considerable risk of unsharpness (fast moving subjects under for all practical purposes non existant light) was a risk I wasn't prepared for.
Also, using just one speedlight would not have given enough GN, and consequently range and recycle times, to cover the whole catwalk (around 35 to 40 feet long).
So consequently using at least two speeddlights was inevitable, the combined weight of which, together with the external PB960 battery pack, with a D800 and grip, and 2.8/70-200, are impossible to handhold/operate comfortably for a longer period/speedily during a shoot (even if the whole contraption was e.g. mounted on a monopod, which BTW is what I always, just as in this case, use when shooting catwalk with the 70-200)
Positioning the speedlight(s) flat out in front of the castwalk was of course impossible, as I was already was standing there
Due to the relatively small space between me and the front of the catwalk, there was no room to put there either, and placing them straight behind me would course would risk me be blocking them, or creating a big shadow covering the oncoming models.
Under exposure allowed to keep initially the contrast low, in particular after recovering the shadows in post, which I then could later augment according to my personal preference while making the definitive version of the picture in post