NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Processing & Publication => Topic started by: elsa hoffmann on October 03, 2016, 20:21:18
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I have been having an issue for a while - and need some input please
Often of my images have a blue/green cast to them. Especially if there is a lot of foliage /grass etc in the image - but not necessarily.
While this could be a WB issue - is there a chance that my camera body has a color issue /setting that can be changed? What am I missing?
I think I am doing something wrong - so your thoughts suggestions might be very helpful.
I typically shoot on WB 5400 - 5600 or thereabouts.
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Perhaps you've set a color adjustment by accident? One can be set with a white balance selection.
Dave
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Perhaps you've set a color adjustment by accident?
Dave
in camera? what and where?
Edit - I should have said please :)
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Looking ...
Shooting menu
White balance
...select white balance to check (game pad up/down)
Right game pad
... select color temp if applicable (game pad up/down)
Right game pad
You should see a color graph. A blue or green bias or both may have been set by accident.
I hope this makes sense
Dave
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Checked - set to K 5560
I have been shooting on Kevin almost since day 1 - thoughts? would AWB be a better option?
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With my D800 and D300s I use auto white balance. Auto WB was unreliable with my D2H. You probably have a newer camera than the D3, D300 era so auto WB should work quite well except under really spiky artificial light like cheep twisties.
I shoot NEF (raw) so it's easy to adjust if needed.
Dave
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One can set an amber/blue and or Magenta/green bias for each WB selection so if this is an occasional problem a bias might be set for any one of them.
Dave
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Thanks Dave - I appreciate your input!!
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I always use the factory Nikon (and Fujifilm) "Daylight" WB setting---without added adjustments--- for existing light photography.
If I get strange off-color results, I know that the existing light itself was strange and off-color. When shooting around large amounts of green plants, I have come to expect "green pollution" or "green bounce". If there is open shade with a blue sky providing the some or all of the illumination, I expect blue pollution.
Of course, with Nikon raw files and a non-Nikon raw converter, the color hues are plastic and adjustable anyway. Calibrating the raw converter with a color checker helps but is not required , since I'm going to be manipulating the color to my own taste anyway.
Over time, this hopefully allows me to learn something about which existing light situations might have subtle color shifts and influences that the everyday human eye easily ignores.
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When the scene has lots of green I often find myself desaturating the green , regardless if I use CNX2 or Lr, or ACR
I do have an offset dial into the AWB , a 1 click towards the right and down , I'm having a glass of wine and feeling to lazy to go and get the camera to check what color that is, but I think it is towards blue/magenta
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Armando - you made me smile :)
Pluton - you describe the situation well - my sentiments exactly
I have found the color checker very useful at times - on other occasions though the results unpleasing to say the least
Many years ago I had a D2x and the colour was unbalanced - Nikon corrected it - but I think this is either settings or my editing
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I nearly all cases I rely on AWB. Shooting RAW, I can always adapt afterwards. When shooting planes over a grass field, I have always to correct the green in the plane's undercarriage, due to the light coming for a substantial part from the grass.
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Okey so at least I am not the only one with green issues.
I have found the settings Armando was referring to - and will do some testing there. Seems I can still shoot in Kelvin and put in a custom setting towards magenta rather than neutral (which is so green)
Same can be done in AWB
I need to test a bit
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1. Kelvin 5560 G-M M0 (default)
2. Kelvin 5560 G-M M1
Straight out of camera - cropped a piece off and saved for viewing here
One could of course do the same adjustment when converting from RAW - which I think might be better as you can fine tune better
Thoughts?
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Adjustments in post is what i do, the hue/saturation tab in photoshop may come to the rescue, for instance with green edges one may adjust by desaturating the green :)
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Fons - that is what I have been doing as well. I would like a more consistent way of working. I am not fond of de-saturating the greens - there always seem to be something missing.
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1. Kelvin 5560 G-M M0 (default)
2. Kelvin 5560 G-M M1
Straight out of camera - cropped a piece off and saved for viewing here
One could of course do the same adjustment when converting from RAW - which I think might be better as you can fine tune better
Thoughts?
To my eye #1 is best. In that photo the wall of the building in the back is warm due to warm light reflected on it from the tile roof and the building in the front near the water is cool as there is cool light reflected on it from plants and perhaps the water. But now the calibration of my display may not be right so who knows? Not me.
Dave
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Dave - I kind of like someting between the 2, but I dont have that option in camera.
WB is so objective - so who knows as you say!
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Dave - I kind of like someting between the 2, but I dont have that option in camera.
WB is so objective - so who knows as you say!
But you do have that option if you shoot NEF. If you generally want JPG(s) strait out of camera then you can shoot NEF + JPG. I decided I didn't have the HD space so I only shoot NEF and extract a JPG if I need it fairly quick. I generally post process anything that's important to me.
Dave
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I only shoot in RAW. so yes I do have some options available
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I have been having an issue for a while - and need some input please
Often of my images have a blue/green cast to them. Especially if there is a lot of foliage /grass etc in the image - but not necessarily.
While this could be a WB issue - is there a chance that my camera body has a color issue /setting that can be changed? What am I missing?
I think I am doing something wrong - so your thoughts suggestions might be very helpful.
I typically shoot on WB 5400 - 5600 or thereabouts.
1- Why are you shooting generally at K5400 - 5600?
2- Why do you have an Exposure Compensation of +1/3 on both images?
3- Why your Color Temperature on the first image is 5350
4- Why your Color Temperature on the second image is 5400
5- Why is the Tint on the first image +6
6- Why is the Tint on the second image +20
7- Why is your Black clipped
8- Why is Your magenta peaking in the midtones.
And why are you using yesteryears Adobe Photoshop Camera Raw 9.1.1 for D810. Do you really think Adobe got it right?
There is nothing wrong with your camera. Set it back to default and stop tempering with the settings if you are not familiar with it.
Why and How did you decide to stick to one/two color temps....Why? Are you using gut feeling? Zodiac signs or a Sekonic 700R color meter of some kind?
Now repeat after me> I will not play around with the Camera color settings and will use Auto WB.
And write down the following sentence 100 times: I will not use Adobe CR but only C1P.
Put up a poster in the washroom: Post Processing is 50% of Photography.
Have an Ice Cream in the mean time......Strawberry Flavour... ;D
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1- Why are you shooting generally at K5400 - 5600?
2- Why do you have an Exposure Compensation of +1/3 on both images?
3- Why your Color Temperature on the first image is 5350
4- Why your Color Temperature on the second image is 5400
5- Why is the Tint on the first image +6
6- Why is the Tint on the second image +20
7- Why is your Black clipped
8- Why is Your magenta peaking in the midtones.
And why are you using yesteryears Adobe Photoshop Camera Raw 9.1.1 for D810. Do you really think Adobe got it right?
There is nothing wrong with your camera. Set it back to default and stop tempering with the settings if you are not familiar with it.
Why and How did you decide to stick to one/two color temps....Why? Are you using gut feeling? Zodiac signs or a Sekonic 700R color meter of some kind?
Now repeat after me> I will not play around with the Camera color settings and will use Auto WB.
And write down the following sentence 100 times: I will not use Adobe CR but only C1P.
Put up a poster in the washroom: Post Processing is 50% of Photography.
Have an Ice Cream in the mean time......Strawberry Flavour... ;D
1. My WB is always set at K5600 as it always was my preferred way of working. (used to work in the past!)
2. Exposure compensation doesnt affect my WB
3 & 4 Dont ask me why PS does that - it is set at K5600 and Photoshop never gives me the same info (has been discussed before somewhere and apparently it does that? perhaps someone can shed light on that?
5 & 6 Read my previous post - those are 2 different images - different settings in camera -
1. Kelvin 5560 G-M M0 (default)
2. Kelvin 5560 G-M M1
7. Clipped black doesnt affect WB
8. see above 5 & 6
9. I dont understand your question - rinse your mouth out and try again.
If I am not welcome to raise my questions here - where should I raise it?
I do not fiddle for fun - I fiddle to learn and to see if I can improve - AND I ASK
my question is not about using photoshop or ACR. Next time I am shooting wildlife I will ask the elephants to hold my color checker for me for a test shot.
now let's start again -
I have a greenish cast. I shouldn't HAVE a green cast at default settings. THAT'S the issue.
Can you address that please? ;D ;D ;D
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I have a greenish cast. I shouldn't HAVE a green cast at default settings. THAT'S the issue.
But you are not at the default settings. You have white balance locked down to 5600K where the magenta/green tint adjustment is locked as well. If the light you are shooting in does not match your manual white balance setting then you will have a color cast. I'd suggest to at least compare your 5600K setting to AWB and see if that makes a difference before changing anything else, that is if you haven't yet.
Also does the color cast change with different lenses?
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Next time I am shooting wildlife I will ask the elephants to hold my color checker for me for a test shot
Just ask the elephants to stand still a moment. Don't they make a suitable gray card replacement? :P
Dave
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Thanks for commenting Charlie.
My feeling is that I get a green colour cast when I shoot in light where I shouldnt get a cast - but you got me thinking.
Regarding different lenses - interesting question - I had to think - it does but so does the light - so comparing may not be fair. Which brings me back to your Manual WB comment .
I don't recall ever having had this issue before I got my D800.
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Just ask the elephants to stand still a moment. Don't they make a suitable gray card replacement? :P
Dave
sharp comment that haha ;)
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Elsa, Kelvin settings are too specific, too narrow. They were designed to be that way because they are meant to be used (mostly) under very specific studio lighting conditions where the studio lights have been metered for temperature. For your shots as shown above, you might like to try instead Auto White Balance (Normal) as a working white balance. You will get better initial results. Auto White Balance in recent Nikons is quite good. I have become a convert to Auto WB as the starting setting in the D600, D810 and now the D500.
To use a white card or grey card, it is not necessary to have the elephants hold it. <love that image!!> You only need make one photo of your white/grey card under the illumination present at the beginning of a particular shoot. Then that shot can be used to set the WB in the converter for all subsequent shots in the shooting session.
Even better is to preset an in-camera white balance off the white card under the illumination present at the beginning of a particular shoot. Then use that in-camera preset WB for all subsequent shots in the session.
This stuff is quite easy to test out. Find some outdoor scene with the green which has been troublesome and shoot the scene at each of 5600K, Daylight and Auto WB (Normal). Which shot looks the best while still on the camera? That will be the shot which is easiest to adjust further in the converter/editor if or when needed.
You probably already know this stuff somewhere in the back of your head. But when we don't use it for awhile we start to forget about it.
Let me know how this works out. Show us the 3-shot test JPGs (extracted from the raw NEFs) at 5600K, Daylight and Auto WB so we can also see which looks best. If you have time, try also the in-camera WB preset method.
[[One problem you will face is that whatever WB settings you use on the camera are not always properly preserved by your chosen converter unless you've taken the time/trouble to make camera profiles. This is why I asked for extracted JPGs. 'Cause I don't know how your camera profiles are set up.]]
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I know every one loves to hate Capture NX-D but it works and it understands what your Nikon was thinking when it took the photograph. It quite easy to develop one's NEF(s) in CNX-D and then send them **directly to The Little Shop Of Horrors (AKA Photoshop) for finishing.
Dave
**OK, there is a TIF file saved but it's always saved in the same location so they can be deleted periodically if they are not desired. It's really quite fluid (Yes the pun was intended.).
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I know every one loves to hate Capture NX-D but it works and it understands what your Nikon was thinking when it took the photograph. It quite easy to develop one's NEF(s) in CNX-D and then send them **directly to The Little Shop Of Horrors (AKA Photoshop for finishing.
Dave
OK, there is a TIF file saved but it's always saved in the same location so they can be deleted periodically if they are not desired. It's really quite fluid (Yes the pun was intended.).
i actually use nx-d more often, and i like its conversions
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I've been using Auto WB since my D300s for most shooting and find it works quite well. It's only getting better with newer Nikons. With my D800 I use a custom WB only with nasty light like cheep twisties and with high pressure sodium street lights I give up.
In my foolishness I recommend Auto WB to CNX-D to Photoshop. Elsa, this what I do and if you adopt this work flow that would validate my choice even if I'm wrong. :)
Dave
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I don't recall ever having had this issue before I got my D800.
New camera = New processing engine.
You must adapt to it as it surely will not adapt to you.
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"If you don't have a greycard, use an elephant" will be my favorite for the coming months .... more seriously, Elsa, have a try with AWB, Nikon's one is really working well. 😎
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This stuff is quite easy to test out. Find some outdoor scene with the green which has been troublesome and shoot the scene at each of 5600K, Daylight and Auto WB (Normal). Which shot looks the best while still on the camera? That will be the shot which is easiest to adjust further in the converter/editor if or when needed.
In the D810, D500, etc, did Nikon fix the incorrect* greenish yellow rendering that my D800 and D800E rear LCDs produce? 'Cause if they haven't, I wouldn't advise anyone to make color judgments from the rear LCD.
* = Meaning 'not the way humans perceive color'.
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I never had the D800 or D800E, so I've never seen that particular problem.
The LCDs on my D810 and D500 seem OK for colour.
Did the D800/E have a Monitor Color Balance setting in the Shooting Menu?
The newer cameras have that. I haven't ever actually used it, but it's there. "-)
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MFloyd - One elephant on it's way to you.
ALL the comments made here are appreciated - sometimes one doesn't see the obvious - or you just don't think. If I didn't want to learn - I never would have asked the question. It is important to me to understand what I did wrong, and why - rather than tell me what to do. So - your comments are valuable to me.
It is true that I am shooting a LOT outside now which I didn't do before. Most of my shooting was in studio - which explains some (to me at least).
I have found AWB in studio doesn't work well at all and for that reason stuck with K5600. Clearly a huge mistake.
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Of course, in a studio it makes perfect sense to lock down 5200-5600k because strobes are balanced for "daylight". Most modeling lights built in to strobes however are incandescent and somewhere closer to 3200k. AWB will make judgement based on the 3200k light that is filling the room and when the strobe flashes at 5600k your white balance will be off. That is why AWB is not to be used in a studio.
Out in the real world with actual daylight so many things can effect color temperature that one Kelvin setting will never be neutral for all scenes.
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Thank you Charlie - I have never so much of such an issue to correct my WB in Processing for outside shooting.
As Almass and others said - I could move to another raw converter - but if I dont address the real issue - I wont get very far anyway.
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I think there is an alternative explanation to a WB issue.
It is important to remember that shadows are not neutral in colour: they are the colour of the light that falls on them. Usually this is hard to see, but if the surface in shadow is white it can be obvious. A common example is shadows on snow on a sunny day, which are blue-lilac because the shadow is lit by the blue sky light. Here is a famous example (Claude Monet, "Haystacks, Effect of Snow, 1891).
Looking at your images, I wonder if the green cast on the wall in shadow is not light reflected from the grass.
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I think there is an alternative explanation to a WB issue.
It is important to remember that shadows are not neutral in colour: they are the colour of the light that falls on them. Usually this is hard to see, but if the surface in shadow is white it can be obvious. A common example is shadows on snow on a sunny day, which are blue-lilac because the shadow is lit by the blue sky light. Here is a famous example (Claude Monet, "Haystacks, Effect of Snow, 1891).
Looking at your images, I wonder if the green cast on the wall in shadow is not light reflected from the grass.
You are wondering 100% correct I think.... makes a lot of sense for shooting wildlife in very green surroundings. Now how does one get rid of that :) AWB???
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BTW - Mike also posted an image which is overly green in my opinion - Mike - what WB did you use?
http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,4471.0/topicseen.html
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Did the D800/E have a Monitor Color Balance setting in the Shooting Menu?
The newer cameras have that. I haven't ever actually used it, but it's there. "-)
No such menu item. Note to self: Always get the second, improved version of the Nikon camera.
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As previously mentioned, green cast can come from light reflection on the gras: here two pictures, the one (locally) uncorrected, where you see that the plane's undercarriage has a green cast; the second one, locally corrected to neutralize the green.
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very interesting - thanks Mr Floyd :)
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A low cost trick for a custom WB is a white Melita 8-12 cup coffee filter placed over the lens. The camera is pointed toward the light source. The WB may be a touch warm. I generally only use this when I'm dealing with really nasty, spikie light sources. I've used this from time to time since my D300s.
I would think most brands of white 8-12 cup coffee filters should give useful results. Follow the instructions in your camera manual or wing it if you'd like to try. YMMV. :)
Dave Hartman
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That's a nifty trick!