NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Processing & Publication => Topic started by: richardHaw on June 17, 2016, 01:49:46
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Hi! haven't developed my own film for more than a decade ::) i recall using ascetic acid for stop bath and no-name fixers that can be bought in small packets for single use. they don't sell them here. so what do you guys recommend for D76 on 400 Tri-X? :o :o :o there are some chemistry being sold here that i am not familiar with like Chugai (Ilford licensed company) and there are no literature available on the net, even for their own product!
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Acetic acid (strong) as a stop bath. A solution of Sodium thiosulphate as a fixing agent.
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Acetic acid (strong) as a stop bath. A solution of Sodium thiosulphate as a fixing agent.
Thanks! I just need to figure out the quantity for ascetic acid. these are generic ones so I may need some experimenting.
Sodium thiosulphate <- I may need to know what this thing is called locally.
I remember Kodak selling these chemicals as a kit, do they have a name? maybe I can import them with amazon :o :o :o
There are a couple of Japanese brands here but I just don't know how to use them.
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Sodium thiosulphate <- I may need to know what this thing is called locally.
It is called: チオ硫酸ナトリウム（Na2S2O2）
Good luck!
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It is called: チオ硫酸ナトリウム（Na2S2O2）
Good luck!
maybe you know how the Chugai chemicals work!? :o :o :o
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maybe you know how the Chugai chemicals work!? :o :o :o
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with any kinds of developing technique of films.
There are My Stop Bath and My Fixer on Chugai website. And this is the link to the PDF file of their instruction manual:
http://www.chugai-photo.co.jp/pdf/mychemical.pdf
I would be glad to help translating the paragraphs you need, but I will go out at around 15:00.
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I'm afraid I'm not familiar with any kinds of developing technique of films.
There are My Stop Bath and My Fixer on Chugai website. And this is the link to the PDF file of their instruction manual:
http://www.chugai-photo.co.jp/pdf/mychemical.pdf
I would be glad to help translating the paragraphs you need, but I will go out at around 15:00.
Thanks for the PDF and the offer! :o :o :o
i am actually more concerned with the effects on Tri-X. I am going to look for Kodak chemistry here
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Apparently Kodak fixer is still available...
http://www.yodobashi.com/%E3%82%B3%E3%83%80%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF-Kodak-%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B5%E3%83%BC-1GAL-5160320/pd/100000001001869500/
And this is the available linup of Kodak developping chemicals:
http://www.yodobashi.com/%E7%8F%BE%E5%83%8F%E7%94%A8%E8%96%AC%E5%93%81/ct/500000060015_500000000000000301/?count=24&disptyp=02&mkrbrnds=0000000658&page=1&searchtarget=prodname&sorttyp=COINCIDENCE_RANKING
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Apparently Kodak fixer is still available...
http://www.yodobashi.com/%E3%82%B3%E3%83%80%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF-Kodak-%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B5%E3%83%BC-1GAL-5160320/pd/100000001001869500/
And this is the available linup of Kodak developping chemicals:
http://www.yodobashi.com/%E7%8F%BE%E5%83%8F%E7%94%A8%E8%96%AC%E5%93%81/ct/500000060015_500000000000000301/?count=24&disptyp=02&mkrbrnds=0000000658&page=1&searchtarget=prodname&sorttyp=COINCIDENCE_RANKING
Thanks. I will check for their availability :o :o :o
many photographers are angry at the protectionist pricing here in japan and i was told that plenty of japanese photographers just import from BH instead because of that ::)
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An acid stop bath is widely used because the developer needs an alkaline environment and the acid stops development more abruptly than just diluting the developer, but it is not really necessary - a plain water rinse works fine. Acetic acid is smelly and strong solutions are irritant to nose, mouth and eyes. A much better - safer, cheaper and easier to use - alternative is citric acid, which can be bought for a few dollars a kg in kitchen supply shops because people use it in baking and jam making. The usual recipe is 15g/liter of plain water. The commercial stop baths are all just citric acid - the only extra you get for your money is a pH indicator so you can reuse them until they change colour from yellow to purple, but citric acid is so cheap it is not worthwhile.
Making your own developer and fixer is a bigger challenge because some of the chemicals are hard to use and/or dangerous. If you really want to make your own the best recipe source is The Darkroom Cookbook by Steve Anchell (https://www.amazon.com/Darkroom-Cookbook-Stephen-G-Anchell/dp/0240804236/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466149938&sr=1-2&keywords=anchell+darkroom+cookbook). Note that there is an Ilford equivalent for all the Kodak developers (Ilford ID-11 is very nearly identical to D-76, eg) and the Ilford versions are often more widely available.
Ilford http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/page.asp?n=26 has lots of information and charts.
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Thanks. I will check for their availability :o :o :o
many photographers are angry at the protectionist pricing here in japan and i was told that plenty of japanese photographers just import from BH instead because of that ::)
Yeah, I know. I also buy things from B&H or ebay. :o :o :o
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Hi Richard, white vinegar is just acetic acid and comes from the super market diluted to around 5%. For stop bath use dilute it down to about 2%. It has significant potential for reuse, but for casual use I would suggest just mixing up enough for just the films you need to process and then discard it after use. Make sure that your developer, stop bath, and fixer are all at the same temperature - which most development tables have at 20 Deg C. IIRC, a 1 Deg C increase in temperature speads up development by 10%, so times will need to be adjusted accordingly. Plunging film into cold stop baths with significant temperature differences can cause damage to the film including reticulation. Ilford used to have good instruction sheets with their chemicals. I think I can track some of these down in the morning and scan them for you if you wish. Clean water is a must and a water filter on your tap is highly desireable - else strain into a clean plastic bucket.
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Richard, this is the Ilford instruction sheet from their website: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2011427133131459.pdf
ID-11 and D-76 are virtually identical, as Les Olson has already pointed out. They give tables for Ilford and Kodak films
Acetic acid or White Vinegar (diluted to 2%) is a better option than water as a stop bath as any residual development is rapidly stopped dead by the acid - much faster than water alone and white vinegar is very inexpensive - maybe your wife has some already.
Fixing for archival use is sometimes done with two fixers - the first can be a replenished fixer that has been previously used that does the main part of the fixing, followed by a fresher sample of the same kind of fixer that is not depleted and can better get rid of the last vestiges of unexposed silver halide.
One or two drops of a liquid dishwasing detergent can be used as a substitute wetting agent. Note Ilford's alternative washing option - handy if scarcity of water makes using large volumes of water a problem.
Good luck.
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there are some chemistry being sold here that i am not familiar with like Chugai (Ilford licensed company) and there are no literature available on the net, even for their own product!
Just to confuse everyone, there are two "Ilford" companies, which are unconnected. The original Ilford founded in 1879 went into receivership in 2004 and was broken up. It had been owned by ICI since 1959 and then by Ciba-Geigy when Ciba-Geigy took over ICI in 1969, and then by various venture capital firms after Ciba-Geigy sold it in 1989. In 2005 there was a management buyout of the UK factory, under the name Harman Technology. This company makes B&W - only B&W - film (Pan F, FP4, HP5, Delta Pro, XP2), paper and chemicals (and pinhole cameras) using the Ilford name, because that is what the factory in the UK used to make. The Swiss factory of the original Ilford was bought by a Japanese company called Oji Paper, and it made inkjet printing and colour photographic products under the Ilford name - especially Ilford Gallerie paper, because that is what the factory in Fribourg used to make.
In 2010 Ilford Switzerland was sold again, and the new owners have now set up Ilford Imaging Europe as a joint venture with Chugai Photo Chemical Company of Tokyo. What Ilford Imaging Europe will make is not clear at this stage - but it won't be the "Ilford" B&W range.
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Thanks everybody for the information overload :o :o :o
i just got a bit dizzy trying to process it all ::)
i have plenty of ascetic acid, I use it as a dip for fried fish 8)
well, I can buy industrial ascetic acid here (i found some) and they are so much cheaper than cane vinegar...citric acid is appealing because I have a baby so it is safe. regarding these, is there any chance that my film will get muddy from using these in the wrong way? which chemical will make the film brittle if soaked for too long.
i am currently not looking into making my own chemistry as i do not want to repeat the frustration i had before and the money that i lost through experimentation so i am going to buy only Kodak branded chemistry for consistency and maybe experiment as i get the hang of things.
i don't want to sound stupid but is the stop bath and fixer really as critical the developer?
oh,boy. I hate the dark bag routine....
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" is the stop bath and fixer really as critical the developer?"
Yes on both occasions. Unless you really want to live on the edge and enjoy the negative and its potential image just for a very short time ... let there be light and the image is gone ...
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The importance of a good stop bath is that it brings consistency to the timing of the development process - it really is the chemical equivalent of a "Stop" or "Off" switch.
For archival negatives, and all should be treated as such IMHO if you are serious about film based photography, then archival fixing (see my previous post) and archival washing is critical as well. If you look at old silver halide prints, many show areas of silvering, which is due to incomplete fixing and inadequate washing. Since the process for developing and fixing films is the same as for prints, you have been warned. ;D
" is the stop bath and fixer really as critical the developer?"
Yes on both occasions. Unless you really want to live on the edge and enjoy the negative and its potential image just for a very short time ... let there be light and the image is gone ...
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" is the stop bath and fixer really as critical the developer?"
Yes on both occasions. Unless you really want to live on the edge and enjoy the negative and its potential image just for a very short time ... let there be light and the image is gone ...
sorry, let me rephrase that :o :o :o
i meant is it really that critical when it comes to result or do fixers/stop baths work the same regardless of developer ::) in short, how big does it contribute to the final image? Thanks
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The importance of a good stop bath is that it brings consistency to the timing of the development process - it really is the chemical equivalent of a "Stop" or "Off" switch.
For archival negatives, and all should be treated as such IMHO if you are serious about film based photography, then archival fixing (see my previous post) and archival washing is critical as well. If you look at old silver halide prints, many show areas of silvering, which is due to incomplete fixing and inadequate washing. Since the process for developing and fixing films is the same as for prints, you have been warned. ;D
yaiks!!! :o :o :o
OK, i will just stick to the labs instead...
it just sucks though as the lab is charging me more for pushing film (standard practice but i am cheap) ::)
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No Richard - it is almost harder to write about than doing the development itself.
If you can follow the simplest of recipes from a cookbook, then you can develop film to a consistent standard that will be satisfactory for most purposes. Exceptions maybe changing development times to accomodate high or low contrast lighting or pushing or pulling the ISO ratings up/down.
As with food, get the right ingredients and then it is time, temperature, and cleanliness. No where near as demanding as your lens repair work.
Good luck.
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No Richard - it is almost harder to write about than doing the development itself.
If you can follow the simplest of recipes from a cookbook, then you can develop film to a consistent standard that will be satisfactory for most purposes. Exceptions maybe changing development times to accomodate high or low contrast lighting or pushing or pulling the ISO ratings up/down.
As with food, get the right ingredients and then it is time, temperature, and cleanliness. No where near as demanding as your lens repair work.
Good luck.
thanks for the encouragement, Hugh!
well, for box speed i would just have the lab do it for me. however, I do plan to push tri-x to 800 as this was what i was trying for before in the first place but always failed. back in the days, photographers would selfishly cling to their recipes and won't teach neophytes anything :o :o :o so the internet is an amazing thing! thank you all for the help.
It drove me to frustration before after ruining less than a handfull of C41 rolls. i remember i was shooting agfa then because it was cheap
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Richard,
Back when I had a darkroom, I used TF-4 rapid fixer for both film & paper. TF-4 is a non-hardening alkaline fixer based on ammonium thiosulphate instead of sodium thiosulphate. The advantage of this is that it washes out of the film/paper much faster and easier, making archival negatives/prints much easier to achieve. It is also quite reasonably priced and the working solution has a 6 month shelf-life. One change I made to my development process was to use a water wash between the stop bath and the fixer stage to reduce carry-over of stop bath into the fixer.
I also processed my film with PMK pyro instead of more conventional developer as this developer is extremely inexpensive. Also, it is a staining developer which has advantages when printing high-contrast scenes on variable contrast paper. When using this developer, I usually skipped the stop bath and just used a water wash to stop development. This is because the acid stop bath tends to reduce the staining effect. Also, PMK-pyro working solution rapidly oxidizes, that by the time you get to the end of the processing time, it has hardly any developing action left. That water wash is more to prevent carry over into the fixer, then it is to stop development.
Here's a link to TF-4 - perhaps there's a supplier near where you live:
http://stores.photoformulary.com/tf-4-archival-fix/
Also, if you're interested, here's a link to PMK-pyro developer:
http://stores.photoformulary.com/pmk-pyro-metol-kodalk-liquid-or-dry/
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Richard, I am pretty sure that we can still get PMK pyro here in Australia. I have a friend that was still using it up until about a year or so ago - I will find out from him.
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Hi, thanks for helping me. so far, these were the ones available to :o :o :o
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Richard,
You might want to give this soup a spin. I split the difference between D-76 1:1 and 1:3 to get smaller grain without the harshness of 1:3. I didn't like the larger mushy grain I got from 1:1. My standard paper grade was 3.0 VC using a diffusion color head for simulating contrast filters. I used a simplified zone system and a Pentax Digital Spotmeter. I avoided paper grade 0 and 1 to avoid the chalk and soot look that AA so hated.
With roll film camera Ansel Adams recommended N-1 development and that's what I was doing here. If I needed to do "push processing" I used rapid selenium toner rather than really doing push processing. N-1 is pull processing.
Kodak's estimated capacity for fixers was based on a two step process. The first fix did the dirty work and the second made sure the fixing was full and complete. The first fix would be thrown from time to time and the second would become the second. I don't remember how frequently but one should throw (recycle) both from time to time. It's not worth trying to save too much on money with chemicals against the value of the images so I erred on the side of using fresh chemicals.
I never liked replenishing developer or calculating longer times for party used developer. I quickly adopted one shot developing.
You might give this a try. I hope something here helps. I'd like to get my darkroom up and running again as I enjoy printing B&W negatives.
Best,
Dave
I hope the attachment works. It's a PDF file. The graph is the older Tri-X of the late '80s as can be seen with then hump in it's back.
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i don't want to sound stupid but is the stop bath and fixer really as critical the developer?
For a long lived printable negative yes. Stop bath protects the fixer and a dual rapid fix complete fixing. One can't properly wash a negative or paper that's not fully fixed.
For fiber base papers a dual rapid fix *without hardener* assures an easier to wash paper. Fixing times are shorter as the fixer isn't absorbed as deeply into the paper. Hardening slows washing and isn't needed for paper.
RC papers shouldn't be fixed longer than recommended as fixer will be absorbed into the edge of the paper.
Dual fixing is from Kodak publications and rapid fixer without hardener for fiber base paper is from Ilford.
Best,
Dave
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I used the rapid fix w/o hardener in the"film era" and it works fine, for both paper and film.
However: Do not leave film or paper in the wash water much longer than necessary.
Often, when a printing session ran late into the night, I used to leave prints in the wash water overnight. This worked fine with fixer containing hardener, but the first time I tried it with non-hardening fixer, the entire emulsion slid off the print when it was pulled out of the wash water the next morning!
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And I saw that the Paterson film tanks are still available 👍
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Yes, there is still quite a lot of B&W equipment, materials, and chemicals if one knows where to look.
This is one Aussie one:
Gear: www.vanbar.com.au/catalogue/index.php?item1=DARKROOM&brand=
Film: www.vanbar.com.au/catalogue/index.php?item1=FILM&item2=B%26W&brand=
Chem.: www.vanbar.com.au/catalogue/index.php?item1=CHEMISTRY&item2=B%26W&brand=
I can think of at least three other outlets here in Melbourne that can supply and process most B&W films. We have two universities and two or three community colleges (aka here as TAFEs) in Melbourne that teach basic B&W photography, so that helps drive the supply side. (Also a number in other states as well.)
Footnote: Australians speak funny. If you are in Aussie and need film, be sure to ask for "Filem", "Phylem", or "Fillum"...........
(They won't even know what film is! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Probably explains why Aussies were early adopters of digital photography!)
And I saw that the Paterson film tanks are still available 👍
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hello, beautiful people. I am surprised that this is still alive :o :o :o
yesterday, i made a big boo boo!!!
i mistook AG guard for a fixer so my film didnt fix! blame it on my poor Japanese skills.
is there a way to undo this? i have never made this mistake so i dont know what to do. waterdrops, sstreaks, drag, etc. i had them before and know how to avoid it but this mistake is so stupid that i doubt anybody wuold do this!!!
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RE-wet the film, and then fix it in fixer, and then wash/dry normally.
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hello, beautiful people. I am surprised that this is still alive :o :o :o
yesterday, i made a big boo boo!!!
i mistook AG guard for a fixer so my film didnt fix! blame it on my poor Japanese skills.
is there a way to undo this? i have never made this mistake so i dont know what to do. waterdrops, sstreaks, drag, etc. i had them before and know how to avoid it but this mistake is so stupid that i doubt anybody wuold do this!!!
Every possible mistake has already been made. I know because I have made them.
If you have exposed the unfixed film to light, that is irretrievable. Unfixed prints will just darken slowly over a couple of weeks (a few photographers have exhibited unfixed prints where the slow decay of the image was part of the show) but unfixed film is dead. If you have not exposed the film to light you can just proceed as if nothing has happened, although the film will probably be darker than normal (if you are using 35mm the writing on the edges is exposed correctly by the manufacturers, so you can distinguish wrong exposure from wrong developing).
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hello, beautiful people. I am surprised that this is still alive :o :o :o
yesterday, i made a big boo boo!!!
i mistook AG guard for a fixer so my film didnt fix! blame it on my poor Japanese skills.
is there a way to undo this? i have never made this mistake so i dont know what to do. waterdrops, sstreaks, drag, etc. i had them before and know how to avoid it but this mistake is so stupid that i doubt anybody wuold do this!!!
I made extremely few mistakes in the darkroom after a learning period. I had to it became a business. For years I never lost or damaged anyone's film. Then one night I was washing bottles and got a phone call. When finished with the call I caped the bottle marked "D-76 Stock" meaning full strength, not diluted. The next three rolls I developed came out totally blank. Not even frame numbers. The film was rinsed a long time in water diluted 1:2 with water and fixed. There is no going back after this mistake.
If the film has frame numbers but no image then the film wasn't exposed in the camera. This isn't the lab's fault. I've seen this. I've picked up color film like this shot by a cousin with senior portraits. The lab was really relieved when I said, "It's got frame number so it was developed." I think it was shot in a Mamiya RB67 with the dark slide in the film back. If the film is totally blank with no film numbers it wasn't developed.
Fortunate there were only three rolls: two were mine and one a customer's. The customer was a PR customer and had more film from the same event so they were covered. The customer wasn't too upset because of a about 10 years of no failures.
My solution to this was I would never take a phone call while mixing chemicals. I also never took a phone call once I started a developing run. To ensure I was developing my film with developer not water I took a drop of the temp controlled developer on a glass rod set a drop on a small strip of exposed printing paper. If the strip didn't change color, growing dark in an appropriate time, I tossed the developer and mixed fresh.
I had other safeguards. I had dual, inline light switches for inspection lights as they were on the front edge of the wet side where they could be brushed with my leg. they were about 1.2m (4 feet) apart so I could not accidentally throw both switches on at the same time by accident. I used a dead bolt on the door to the darkroom so no one would accidentally open the door while film was out.
I once used stop bath before developing. This might have been because of accepting a phone call. I fortunately realized what I had done and washed the film thoroughly then developed it about 10% extra. It came out fine.
My first roll of film in a collage class I forgot the tap the tank to dislodge air bubbles. :-[ I probably made most of the usual mistakes early on. I remember I was obsessed with fine grain until I bought a 4x5 view camera. After that I shot almost exclusively Tri-X (TX not TXP) in 35mm and later in 6x6 and 6x7. I got fine enough grain from 35mm Tri-X from D-76 1:2.
Accidents happen. One should try to think out all the possible mistakes one could make and find a way to prevent them. Once a mistake is made find a way to prevent it in the future.
Dave Hartman
Sorry about all the corrections: typos R us. :-[
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If you have exposed the unfixed film to light, that is irretrievable.
This depends on how much light and for how long. Also how long the the film waits for proper fixing. If the film is discovered to be unfixed or not completely fix under darkroom inspection lights or even briefly under room lights there should be no problems with rinsing and fixing it immediately. Even if the film has been hung and dried I'd give it a shot. I'd try even if the film was unfixed for 24 hours. There is nothing to lose at that point.
It bears noting that incompletely fixed film and paper can't be properly washed. Also Kodak's estimated capacity for fixers is based on using stop bath and a dual fixing system.
Dave
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Thanks for trying to help, guys. I am afraid that it is irretrievable now. :o :o :o
it has been sitting for too long. this sucks because the instructions weren't clear even for native Japanese speakers. the good news is i have learned from this and I got a proper fixer now. Never made this kind of mistake before. my negs are perfect now and I wished I could have saved it
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OK, fixed it again last night and somehow saved the negatives :o :o :o
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All is well that ends well... :-)
In my film developing days I did go through dark lab errors but always managed to keep the negatives "usable". After a while it seems easy and regular till you get overconfident, and then you have to think fast... :-)
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what i cannot save is her ass :o :o :o she has none ::)