D76 fixers and stop bath

[Bjørn Rørslett]

" is the stop bath and fixer really as critical the developer?"

Yes on both occasions. Unless you really want to live on the edge and enjoy the negative and its potential image just for a very short time ... let there be light and the image is gone ...

[Hugh_3170]

The importance of a good stop bath is that it brings consistency to the timing of the development process - it really is the chemical equivalent of a "Stop" or "Off" switch.

For archival negatives, and all should be treated as such IMHO  if you are serious about film based photography, then archival fixing (see my previous post) and archival washing is critical as well.  If you look at old silver halide prints, many show areas of silvering, which is due to incomplete fixing and inadequate washing.  Since the process for developing and fixing films is the same as for prints, you have been warned. 

" is the stop bath and fixer really as critical the developer?"

Yes on both occasions. Unless you really want to live on the edge and enjoy the negative and its potential image just for a very short time ... let there be light and the image is gone ...

[richardHaw]

" is the stop bath and fixer really as critical the developer?"

Yes on both occasions. Unless you really want to live on the edge and enjoy the negative and its potential image just for a very short time ... let there be light and the image is gone ...

sorry, let me rephrase that
i meant is it really that critical when it comes to result or do fixers/stop baths work the same regardless of developer in short, how big does it contribute to the final image? Thanks

[richardHaw]

The importance of a good stop bath is that it brings consistency to the timing of the development process - it really is the chemical equivalent of a "Stop" or "Off" switch.

For archival negatives, and all should be treated as such IMHO  if you are serious about film based photography, then archival fixing (see my previous post) and archival washing is critical as well.  If you look at old silver halide prints, many show areas of silvering, which is due to incomplete fixing and inadequate washing.  Since the process for developing and fixing films is the same as for prints, you have been warned. 

yaiks!!!
OK, i will just stick to the labs instead...
it just sucks though as the lab is charging me more for pushing film (standard practice but i am cheap)

[Hugh_3170]

No Richard - it is almost harder to write about than doing the development itself.

If you can follow the simplest of recipes from a cookbook, then you can develop film to a consistent standard that will be satisfactory for most purposes.  Exceptions maybe changing development times to accomodate high or low contrast lighting or pushing or pulling the ISO ratings up/down.

As with food, get the right ingredients and then it is time, temperature, and cleanliness.  No where near as demanding as your lens repair work.

Good luck.

[richardHaw]

No Richard - it is almost harder to write about than doing the development itself.

If you can follow the simplest of recipes from a cookbook, then you can develop film to a consistent standard that will be satisfactory for most purposes.  Exceptions maybe changing development times to accomodate high or low contrast lighting or pushing or pulling the ISO ratings up/down.

As with food, get the right ingredients and then it is time, temperature, and cleanliness.  No where near as demanding as your lens repair work.

Good luck.

thanks for the encouragement, Hugh!

well, for box speed i would just have the lab do it for me. however, I do plan to push tri-x to 800 as this was what i was trying for before in the first place but always failed. back in the days, photographers would selfishly cling to their recipes and won't teach neophytes anything so the internet is an amazing thing! thank you all for the help.

It drove me to frustration before after ruining less than a handfull of C41 rolls. i remember i was shooting agfa then because it was cheap

[dslater]

Richard,
  Back when I had a darkroom, I used TF-4 rapid fixer for both film & paper. TF-4 is a non-hardening alkaline fixer based on ammonium thiosulphate  instead of sodium thiosulphate. The advantage of this is that it washes out of the film/paper much faster and easier, making archival negatives/prints much easier to achieve. It is also quite reasonably priced and the working solution has a 6 month shelf-life. One change I made to my development process was to use a water wash between the stop bath and the fixer stage to reduce carry-over of stop bath into the fixer.
  I also processed my film with PMK pyro instead of more conventional developer as this developer is extremely inexpensive. Also, it is a staining developer which has advantages when printing high-contrast scenes on variable contrast paper.  When using this developer, I usually skipped the stop bath and just used a water wash to stop development. This is because the acid stop bath tends to reduce the staining effect. Also, PMK-pyro working solution rapidly oxidizes, that by the time you get to the end of the processing time, it has hardly any developing action left. That water wash is more to prevent carry over into the fixer, then it is to stop development.
  Here's a link to TF-4 - perhaps there's a supplier near where you live:
http://stores.photoformulary.com/tf-4-archival-fix/

Also, if you're interested, here's a link to PMK-pyro developer:
http://stores.photoformulary.com/pmk-pyro-metol-kodalk-liquid-or-dry/

 

[Hugh_3170]

Richard, I am pretty sure that we can still get PMK pyro here in Australia.  I have a friend that was still using it up until about a year or so ago - I will find out from him.

[richardHaw]

Hi, thanks for helping me. so far, these were the ones available to 

[David H. Hartman]

Richard,

You might want to give this soup a spin. I split the difference between D-76 1:1 and 1:3 to get smaller grain without the harshness of 1:3. I didn't like the larger mushy grain I got from 1:1. My standard paper grade was 3.0 VC using a diffusion color head for simulating contrast filters. I used a simplified zone system and a Pentax Digital Spotmeter. I avoided paper grade 0 and 1 to avoid the chalk and soot look that AA so hated.

With roll film camera Ansel Adams recommended N-1 development and that's what I was doing here. If I needed to do "push processing" I used rapid selenium toner rather than really doing push processing. N-1 is pull processing.

Kodak's estimated capacity for fixers was based on a two step process. The first fix did the dirty work and the second made sure the fixing was full and complete. The first fix would be thrown from time to time and the second would become the second. I don't remember how frequently but one should throw (recycle) both from time to time. It's not worth trying to save too much on money with chemicals against the value of the images so I erred on the side of using fresh chemicals.

I never liked replenishing developer or calculating longer times for party used developer. I quickly adopted one shot developing.

You might give this a try. I hope something here helps. I'd like to get my darkroom up and running again as I enjoy printing B&W negatives.

Best,

Dave

I hope the attachment works. It's a PDF file. The graph is the older Tri-X of the late '80s as can be seen with then hump in it's back.

[David H. Hartman]

i don't want to sound stupid but is the stop bath and fixer really as critical the developer?

For a long lived printable negative yes. Stop bath protects the fixer and a dual rapid fix complete fixing. One can't properly wash a negative or paper that's not fully fixed.

For fiber base papers a dual rapid fix *without hardener* assures an easier to wash paper. Fixing times are shorter as the fixer isn't absorbed as deeply into the paper. Hardening slows washing and isn't needed for paper.

RC papers shouldn't be fixed longer than recommended as fixer will be absorbed into the edge of the paper.

Dual fixing is from Kodak publications and rapid fixer without hardener for fiber base paper is from Ilford.

Best,

Dave

[pluton]

I used the rapid fix w/o hardener in the"film era" and it works fine, for both paper and film. 
However:  Do not leave film or paper in the wash water much longer than necessary. 
Often, when a printing session ran late into the night, I used to leave prints in the wash water overnight.  This worked fine with fixer containing hardener, but the first time I tried it with non-hardening fixer, the entire emulsion slid off the print when it was pulled out of the wash water the next morning!

[MFloyd]

And I saw that the Paterson film tanks are still available 👍

[Hugh_3170]

Yes, there is still quite a lot of B&W equipment, materials, and chemicals if one knows where to look.

This is one Aussie one:

Gear:   www.vanbar.com.au/catalogue/index.php?item1=DARKROOM&brand=

Film:     www.vanbar.com.au/catalogue/index.php?item1=FILM&item2=B%26W&brand=

Chem.: www.vanbar.com.au/catalogue/index.php?item1=CHEMISTRY&item2=B%26W&brand=

I can think of at least three other outlets here in Melbourne that can supply and process most B&W films.  We have two universities and two or three community colleges (aka here as TAFEs) in Melbourne that teach basic B&W photography, so that helps drive the supply side.  (Also a number  in other states as well.)


Footnote:  Australians speak funny.  If you are in Aussie and need film,  be sure to ask for "Filem", "Phylem", or "Fillum"...........   
(They won't even know what film is!    Probably explains why Aussies were early adopters of digital photography!)

And I saw that the Paterson film tanks are still available 👍

[richardHaw]

hello, beautiful people. I am surprised that this is still alive

yesterday, i made a big boo boo!!!

i mistook AG guard for a fixer so my film didnt fix! blame it on my poor Japanese skills.

is there a way to undo this? i have never made this mistake so i dont know what to do. waterdrops, sstreaks, drag, etc. i had them before and know how to avoid it but this mistake is so stupid that i doubt anybody wuold do this!!!