Author Topic: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!  (Read 24667 times)

frankv

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2015, 11:45:36 »
FrankF: I fail to see what can be gained by a 24/1.8 DX. The optics would be virtually identical so the size difference would be negligible.

That was to me, not FrankF  :)

I own the 35mm 1.8DX, and had a 35mm 1.8FX on loan for a while. Although the IQ was superior on the FX version, I haven't found a reason to buy one yet. And, from my memory, the diameter of the DX lens is visbly smaller, and it's about 2cm shorter. On a D7x00 it makes a difference to me. If this would mirror to the 24mm focal lenght is not for me to say, but for a walkaround lens, i like small  8)

I suspect that I will cave in pretty soon for the new AF-S 24mm, because it is a very useful focal lengt. DX or not, NAS is coming....


-frank-
Frank Vevik

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2015, 11:53:49 »
As long as it wasn't Frankenstein, no worries :D

I have the old 24-70 and used it a lot earlier, but not much recently due to a change in my shooting requirements. I'll test the two against each other, of course.

Airy

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2015, 12:03:27 »
Same here. I am eagerly waiting for the next social event to further use that zoom (AF speed being the top benefit). I recently shot a wedding with a 50/1.8G because I was only complemeting the job of a hired photographer (probably as professional as myself) and wanted to be discreet. I good good results, but variable FL is nice to have at times.
Airy Magnien

frankv

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2015, 17:04:02 »
As long as it wasn't Frankenstein, no worries :D



Actually, sometimes it feels like my brain and mouth are not really connected. One acts without the other. So maybe you aren't that far off  ;D ;D ;D

-frank-
Frank Vevik

Erik Lund

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2015, 19:12:48 »
On the edge of this topic: I'm still using the Beast, 28-70mm 2.8 AFS If when possible I'll compare it to the new 24-70 AFS VR
The Beast has been a work horse of mine since it was released only paired with the 24-70 AFS for a short period, the love for the 28-70 made me keep it and sold off the new one.

I have added 24mm 1.4 to go along with it among others but IMHO the 24-70 AFS was too weak at 24mm in the corners and way too much distortion up close.
Erik Lund

simsurace

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2015, 12:16:54 »
Looking at the pictures of the 200-500 and I want to cry. That horrible tripod collar - again. When will they ever learn?
I just cannot get over this glaring design problem. I wonder whether you have talked to your contacts at Nikon about this and what their response was.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2015, 12:37:53 »
More than once and to no avail.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2015, 14:27:57 »
Nikon must be aware of the problem; otherwise they wouldn't publish this

http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/d810_tips/the_electronic_front/

with example using the 80-400 at 1/50s.

However, they do not seem to grasp why the 80-400 is vibration sensitive ... which is astonishing.

simsurace

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2015, 16:26:03 »
Nikon must be aware of the problem; otherwise they wouldn't publish this

http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/d810_tips/the_electronic_front/

with example using the 80-400 at 1/50s.

However, they do not seem to grasp why the 80-400 is vibration sensitive ... which is astonishing.

The situation is quite bizarre because the tripod collar must have design goals, as any other part. I would presume that the first and foremost design goal would be keeping the lens and camera stable over the whole range of shutter speeds, necessitating an analysis of resonant frequencies and taking measures to dampen them as much as possible. However, they don't seem to check whether this design goal is fulfilled by the current design, which looks like a see-saw and behaves like one, too.  :)

Meanwhile, Sigma's 150-600 Sports lens seems to have a decent tripod collar. I haven't tested it, but its appearance suggest that there should be less problems.

Since the shutter movement is merely the source of the vibration, even faster shutter speeds should be affected by the vibration, exposures around 1s would likely contain several cycles that do not result in an obvious motion blur but still make for a softer image than could be achieved in principle.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2015, 18:45:31 »

The situation is quite bizarre because the tripod collar must have design goals, as any other part. I would presume that the first and foremost design goal would be keeping the lens and camera stable over the whole range of shutter speeds

I don't think they are trying to achieve this with their long lens collars. I suspect what they consider the tripod collar's task is to hold the weight of the lens (without breaking) and they further assume that the user has one hand on the camera and another hand around the zoom ring or on top of the lens. The user has probably turned VR ON in order to correct for vibrations that result from whatever source (loose tripod head, hands on lens and camera, etc.). Finally my guess is that they assume the user of such a light weight tele probably has skimped on the tripod in order to further save weight and chosen a model which can hold the lens without collapsing but not hold it steady.

If these assumptions are correct then the quality of the tripod collar and its mechanical properties probably make no perceptible difference to the results. Thus they can choose from the tripod collar designs one that is 1) cheap to manufacture, 2) as light as possible, 3) able to hold the lens without breaking from its weight. No intention is made in the tripod collar design to prevent vibrations since it would be futile to try to do so assuming the flimsy tripod and hands around the lens and camera.

It seems they never intended the tripod collar to be responsible for preventing vibrations. It is very clear when putting the 80-400 on tripod from its original collar and zooming to 400mm and zooming all the way in live view to see the details. Even in an indoor environment in a large hall where there is minimal air movement, the image will float a bit like the tripod were on a boat. Turning on VR reduces this but results in some degradation of sharpness compared to fast shutter speeds (or a lens with steady platform and mount) with VR off. Also I don't think with VR on you can get predictable framing.

Now the only way these kinds of collars could exit the factory is that they don't seriously consider the possibility of use of the product with a steady tripod and cable release, hands off the lens, and VR off, at slow shutter speeds. "Try turning VR on and see if that cures the vibration" was a camera store's recommendation. They didn't understand at all why I wanted to have VR off.

Maybe we should write a petition to Nikon? What makes the idea difficult to get support for is that some people think the whole idea of landscape photography with a long lens is doomed to failure. Personally I think telephoto landscape images are often very beautiful and moody, making me want to go out and experience those places whereas the super wide angle makes my legs and vestibular system feel a bit ill.

Luckily I've managed to find lenses up to 300mm that don't suffer from massive tripod collar design failure. I should probably knock on wood. But I would like a lens like the 200-500 for those distant landscape shots where there are layers of mist to create a sense of depth but sharp detail in the first layer. Also for large moons as part of a landscape, without having to purchase and carry around a 12k€ lens that may not have all that great a tripod collar either.

BTW EFCS can be very effective in killing most shutter vibration but it does nothing to reduce the effects of wind on sharpness, which can be severe in coastal open areas (even if there is not much perceptible wind). Also I don't think VR can predict and compensate for gusts of wind properly, it's a bit of a hit and miss affair.

Frank Fremerey

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2015, 19:23:54 »
I hear it is not only heavier in the Kilos but also went up in the
wallet domain 1500 old 2500 new. Is that true?
You are out there. You and your camera. You can shoot or not shoot as you please. Discover the world, Your world. Show it to us. Or we might never see it.

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Erik Lund

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2015, 19:31:50 »
24-70mm 2.8 then yes, $2,396.95
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Bjørn J

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2015, 19:35:46 »
I hear it is not only heavier in the Kilos but also went up in the
wallet domain 1500 old 2500 new. Is that true?
The 24-70? Not quite that much. On B&H the new one is $650 more. But it definitely could be worth it. We will see.
Bjørn Jørgensen

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2015, 19:43:11 »
Nikon must be aware of the problem; otherwise they wouldn't publish this

http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/d810_tips/the_electronic_front/

with example using the 80-400 at 1/50s.

However, they do not seem to grasp why the 80-400 is vibration sensitive ... which is astonishing.

Meanwhile, Sigma's 150-600 Sports lens seems to have a decent tripod collar. I haven't tested it, but its appearance suggest that there should be less problems.

I had a look at the Sigma 150-600 Sports yesterday and its tripod collar is very solid with a low profile. The 200-500's collar looks like it's been designed to look fast and sexy.

Akira

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Re: Nikon's new 24-70/2.8, 24/1.8 and 200-500/5.6 are now official!
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2015, 20:01:09 »
It seems they never intended the tripod collar to be responsible for preventing vibrations. It is very clear when putting the 80-400 on tripod from its original collar and zooming to 400mm and zooming all the way in live view to see the details. Even in an indoor environment in a large hall where there is minimal air movement, the image will float a bit like the tripod were on a boat. Turning on VR reduces this but results in some degradation of sharpness compared to fast shutter speeds (or a lens with steady platform and mount) with VR off. Also I don't think with VR on you can get predictable framing.

Maybe we should write a petition to Nikon? What makes the idea difficult to get support for is that some people think the whole idea of landscape photography with a long lens is doomed to failure. Personally I think telephoto landscape images are often very beautiful and moody, making me want to go out and experience those places whereas the super wide angle makes my legs and vestibular system feel a bit ill.

BTW EFCS can be very effective in killing most shutter vibration but it does nothing to reduce the effects of wind on sharpness, which can be severe in coastal open areas (even if there is not much perceptible wind). Also I don't think VR can predict and compensate for gusts of wind properly, it's a bit of a hit and miss affair.

Another consideration of the Nikon VR is that it is designed to make the VR elements go back to the neutral position right after the shutter button is released, and re-start the vibration reduction until the shutter runs.  Nikon explains that this is to avoid the decentered framing, but I would then doubt this movement may cause the blur because the shutter release timing varies from the model to model.

As for the landscape, Nikon would generally recommend wide and/or standard zooms which is good for outdoor use because they eliminate the need of switching lenses that would cause dusts to invade the camera.  :D

If I understand correctly, the natural resonance frequency of the tripod/lens/camera combo (which is also generated by the wind) is too high for the VR system to follow.  Again, if I understand correctly, that's why Nikon recommends to turn VR off on the tripod.
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