Author Topic: New D780 formally announced.  (Read 2441 times)

arthurking83

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2020, 08:23:31 »
Have to fess up that I like reading Thom. Don't always agree, but still interesting to read his thoughts tho.
eg. I don't think anything that the camera companies can do to 'reverse' the sales decline.
My thoughts re the sales decline is simply that the general masses have 'bought' their one good camera, subsequently find it annoyingly heavy and too large to use, and smartphone IQ has progressed to more than acceptable so the 'one good camera' syndrome died a fast and furious death. The heady days of DSLR sales figures are long gone .. nothing .. not even this advanced level of programmability will reverse this trend.
The sales highs of a decade ago were an anomaly.
Already the smartphone market is seeing signs of the same 'syndrome' .. so I always thought what he says about reversing the sales decline trend makes no sense.

But then he says:
Quote
"Sure, there's a lot of the usual top-of-the-line tweaking in it, particularly to the focus system, but the Mark III feels a lot more Mark II.5-ish to me"
of the Canon 1DXIII, and from what I've seen of it, is a bit unfair. What TH seems to want from Companies X,Y and Z is to totally revamp a product line that heavily relies on familiarity from it's customer base.
Having read that the 1DXIII has an AF joystick integrated directly into the AF-On button .. genius! Irrespective of if it works perfectly or not .. just the idea behind it .. ie. the potential revolutionary way to control AF(I've always been a huge AF-On type shooter).
But still TH isn't happy, because the camera can't rename his images on the fly .... in 15 different languages and formats, and won't make his breakfast and bed and do the dishes and whatnot.
Seriously tho, I understand that it's stupid that such cameras are limited to fine naming the way they are(just mad, and sad that there isn't not one single effort of thought to file/folder naming to make life a small amount easier in some way.
But to think that this is the holy grail of renewed interest in ILC camera sales by moms and dads ... is just plain pie in the sky.

The bulk of sales in serious type ILC level camera bodies is basically up to us .. the enthusiast, and there's only so much market level in that.
Making one greater than another is only cannibalising sales from one brand model to another .. will never increase overal sales the way TH seems to think it will.
He obviously has his wants and desires mixed up with what he thinks the mass consumer think is important to them.
eg. what I believe is important to me too .. simply not the same product types. I really wanted to get a D850 late last year(early this year), and I was a little disappointed that something so simple like the film scanning feature was so basically implemented(where it'd have better been done in Picture Control, and hence films scanned in NEF mode!) for me it was the lack of effort made(not the actual feature itself). Not about to reward a company for a half baked effort .. and the upgrade wasn't imperative .. just 'a thing' I could have done if it had been done well.

I believe that if the camera companies want to 'increase sales' of ILC cameras, then they have to look at a total revolution in product(not a revolutionary for of the same product) .. a totally new product type (for them).
And take back sales from smartphones.
So the only obvious path forward for Nikon/Canon would be to make a smartphone type small form camera, that also works as a phone, and accessorise it to high heaven with add on lenses and other module types.
It would be marketed as a ILC camera, just that it's a smartphone 'replacement'.

This is what made the smartphone so popular. Note all the add hype around them, and the marketing $ poured into them .. 99.9% of all this sales pitch is directed at the imaging side of the phone.
The actual comms side of the product is pretty much irrelevant.
So for Nikon .. make a sleek smartphone sized mirrorless camera that is marketed as the Nikon camera that you can phone home with. Good quality lenses .. etc, better quality images than current smartphones can do. etc.

From what appears to be the current trend, it seems that mr and mrs general public dont' spending US$1K on a stupid comms device because it's their every day 'good camera' too now.
Arthur

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2020, 16:36:17 »
Arthur,  nice write-up of your experiences, too long to quote, but I think you are correct that the general photography market has moved on from iLC to smartphone.
It was inevitable that a simple device many people carry with them every day would replace something complex and heavy. For family events and daily use a phone cam is the best solution. Even smaller cameras like z50 require an intention to photograph if they are going to be carried. New features will not change the number of people who have that intention.

pluton

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2020, 23:00:21 »
I believe that if the camera companies want to 'increase sales' of ILC cameras, then they have to look at a total revolution in product(not a revolutionary for of the same product) .. a totally new product type (for them).
And take back sales from smartphones.
So the only obvious path forward for Nikon/Canon would be to make a smartphone type small form camera, that also works as a phone, and accessorise it to high heaven with add on lenses and other module types.
It would be marketed as a ILC camera, just that it's a smartphone 'replacement'.


This is somewhat in line with Hogan's constant complaining---starting, I think, more than 10 years ago--- that the cameras need to be able to quickly transmit photos to the web, more like smartphones do.
IMO, the idea that Nikon or Canon, or any of the traditional camera companies could make a smartphone AND succeed is not credible. Both Red (the digital cinema camera company) and Garmin (the GPS device company) brought out smartphones and both were quickly disastrous in the marketplace.  The ceaseless product development cycle of smartphones is more intense than any other product---a total mismatch for the capabilities of a GPS device company, a digital cinema camera company, or certainly a conventional camera company.
Keith B., Santa Monica, CA, USA

CS

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2020, 23:28:24 »
This is somewhat in line with Hogan's constant complaining---starting, I think, more than 10 years ago--- that the cameras need to be able to quickly transmit photos to the web, more like smartphones do.
IMO, the idea that Nikon or Canon, or any of the traditional camera companies could make a smartphone AND succeed is not credible. Both Red (the digital cinema camera company) and Garmin (the GPS device company) brought out smartphones and both were quickly disastrous in the marketplace.  The ceaseless product development cycle of smartphones is more intense than any other product---a total mismatch for the capabilities of a GPS device company, a digital cinema camera company, or certainly a conventional camera company.

+1!
Carl

arthurking83

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2020, 01:50:10 »
This is somewhat in line with Hogan's constant complaining---starting, I think, more than 10 years ago--- that the cameras need to be able to quickly transmit photos to the web, more like smartphones do.
IMO, the idea that Nikon or Canon, or any of the traditional camera companies could make a smartphone AND succeed is not credible. Both Red (the digital cinema camera company) and Garmin (the GPS device company) brought out smartphones and both were quickly disastrous in the marketplace.  The ceaseless product development cycle of smartphones is more intense than any other product---a total mismatch for the capabilities of a GPS device company, a digital cinema camera company, or certainly a conventional camera company.

Yes similar, but not the same(thing). I don't think the underlying priority is simply the ability to share quickly tho(which is TH's take on it) .. easily yes! for sure, but from my observations of my circle of friends and family(admittedly a very tiny market sample!) .. is that they just want an easy way to get good photos .. smartphones allow this. The major subsequent benefit is then the ability to share.

I think Reds' major issue was the hype not living up to the reality.
People also seem to love the ability to accessorize .. just like we enthusiasts do with out cameras. Whether this accessory thing means bling, or actual useful addons is obviously different for each individual.

But, as said, such a product wouldn't be a smartphone as such. It would be marketed and sold as a mirrorless camera, and the accessory set would include lenses and ergonomic grips .. and whatever else.
The idea being that it's an even smaller than the current smallest mirrorless camera, but with the benefit of ILC. Seems to be where the market is headed(going by the recent CIPA numbers).
Should have been done years ago TBH so the foothold would have been already set.

If I think of it from my perspective. If Nikon had just such a product, I'm 99.999% sure it'd have bought into it. It wouldn't replace my DSLR geekiness, it would include me in the mirrorless genre, and I'd have a couple of lenses to play with. Such a proiduct would replace my phone! .. not my current camera.
Doesn't have to be the thinnest/lightest/smallest phone, as we currently see the phone market, it's gravitating towards larger now .. it just needs to be the most pocketable camera that has the ability to make phone calls, but much better and more flexibility in terms as a camera.
Samsung S8+ that I have apparently has very high quality photography ability .. I've never seen it, never thought to use it as such.
Currently I only use my smartphone as a camera because at work I need to be able to prove certain anomalies  .. ie. just capture an image of the issue(eg. dent in bumper, scrape in bodywork).
Never once have I used it as a serious camera tool.

Update cycles wouldn't be an issue, as long as it's marketed as a camera(not a smartphone)
Can it be done well .. no idea. Tried before, for sure. But I think those previous versions failed due to little awareness and demand for those manufacturer names.

Anyhow, I think it would be an interesting camera product that would take off well in the world of CIPA figures.
Arthur

CS

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2020, 02:10:36 »
Arthur, I think that's a pipe dream. Nikon can't handle SnapBridge, much less something that people actually want to use. They make fine photo gear, and lousy software. Best they stay out of a market that would eat their lunch, and probably put them out of business in the bargain.
Carl

pluton

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2020, 21:13:16 »
The cameras in phones could be better, no doubt...and without the built-in Computational Photography creating fantasy images.
The super-slim form of the smartphone would be an attractive starting place for a conventional camera company to make a super-pocketable, advanced point and shoot camera.
Things like doubling the sensor size (from extremely tiny to tiny), adding a rotating ND filter wheel to offset the fixed f/2.4 aperture (more important for video than stills), adding some kind of viewfinder that enables easy use in bright sunlight, etc would make such a product of some interest to photographers.

Unfortunately for this dream, the current phone cams have been ruled by the marketplace to be good enough. 
Keith B., Santa Monica, CA, USA

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2020, 03:44:10 »
The cameras in phones could be better, no doubt...and without the built-in Computational Photography creating fantasy images.

Unfortunately for this dream, the current phone cams have been ruled by the marketplace to be good enough.

Images were so much more real when they were made from silver, gelatins and dektol. And sadly the wonderful large negatives of a century ago were replaced by tiny little things which were “good enough”

I have to add that if you timetraveled back to 1981 when I bought my first SLR and showed the camera seller the results you can obtain with a good cellphone they would burn you for being a witch. Sure, a well exposed 6x6 negative still beats them, but the cell phone sees in the dark and fits in your pocket.

Good enough has always driven photographic form factor. This is nothing unique to today.

chambeshi

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2020, 09:12:32 »
"The Nikon D780, for instance, is essentially a Z6, but with a mirror box and an optical viewfinder as the primary compositional path. Put it in Live View, and shooting via the rear LCD on the D780 is essentially the same as shooting with a Z6."

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2020-mirrorless-camera/mirrorless-without-an-evf.html

A tactic to bolster DSLR sales, perhaps? The D780 could lead to "a hybrid, best-of-both-worlds camera" but if so probably only in 4 years or so (unless R&D has been busy in a skunkworks)
#chambeshiphoto
D850, Z7, 20 f4 AI 28 f2.8AIS 45 f2.8AIP 55mm 2.8AIS+60 f2.8G Micro 58 f1.4G, 85 f1.4D, 400 f2.8E VRII 300 f4E PF 500 f5.6E PF, 70-180 Micro f4-5.6D 70-200 f2.8E FL, Zeiss Distagons -15 f2.8, 21 f2.8

Erik Lund

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2020, 11:33:30 »
Here a link to a very well written article on Nikon and the new D780 and Z6:

The D780 And Why Nikon Is Smart to Continue Making New DSLRs

https://fstoppers.com/originals/d780-and-why-nikon-smart-continue-making-new-dslrs-444386
Erik Lund

Hugh_3170

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2020, 14:23:20 »
Thanks Erik - one of the more sane and reasoned articles that I have read in recent times.

Here a link to a very well written article on Nikon and the new D780 and Z6:

The D780 And Why Nikon Is Smart to Continue Making New DSLRs

https://fstoppers.com/originals/d780-and-why-nikon-smart-continue-making-new-dslrs-444386
Hugh Gunn

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2020, 13:18:16 »
And stirred by the siren call of this successor's erstwhile "improvement", however incremental, I can only hope to have enough money saved or earned in time to be in on the rush to unburden any number of G.A.S.-bags of their low-shutter-count D750, even mothballed D610, cameras for less then the cost of a night out for dinner and a Broadway show. (And I ain't talking Hamilton ticket money, either!)
In the end, everyone's happy, or wants to believe they are, except maybe Thom -- but we luvs him anyhoo! :-*

chambeshi

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2020, 15:06:51 »
#chambeshiphoto
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prl

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2020, 11:57:12 »
This "disappointment tendency" concerning the D780 makes me wonder if this has to do with unrealistic expectations. Maybe this very slow incremental improvements is the new normal, ie every new camera upgrade/update now has more to do with functions like image stabilisation, video etc, and not so much about image quality. Just like the upgrade every two or three year when is comes to computers has slowed down, now perhaps digital cameras have matured at a level where big game changing updates is no more to be expected. And for many of us this might be something good, because it wont make the gear we have obsolete after a few years in the same way it used to. I understand this is a problem for camera manufacturers, who want us to buy new cameras, but from the point of view that adding more and more electronic waste to the world, it is IMHO positive if the cameras get an longer life-span.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: New D780 formally announced.
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2020, 12:10:06 »
I understand this is a problem for camera manufacturers, who want us to buy new cameras, but from the point of view that adding more and more electronic waste to the world, it is IMHO positive if the cameras get an longer life-span.

Absolutely. And this longer life-span can be supported via significant firmware updates such as has been happening with the Z6 / Z7.