Author Topic: Nikon Negativity  (Read 7817 times)

Chris Dees

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2020, 10:52:32 »
Because it's harder to see and harder to focus. Not having the lens wide open before taking the shot is certainly not a benefit for me.

I don't have have a Z camera.

You should try one, it's so much easier with a Z.
Chris Dees

Hugh_3170

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2020, 05:02:08 »
I just wish that stills photographers could record a short voice clip against each stills image they take with a Z camera or the likes of the D850, D750 etc .  Lens details could be part of the audio clip.  I recall that the D5 has this facility.

At least, the Z6 and Z7 both allow you to store up to 20 Non-CPU Lens Data Entries.  You enter the Focal Length and Max Aperture of the lens in the list and select the appropriate one when you mount the lens.  The focal length and max aperture are stored in the image's EXIF data.  Not quite as nice as a chipped lens, but better than nothing.
Hugh Gunn

arthurking83

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2020, 07:53:56 »
.....

Regarding stopping down, every Nikon camera I've owned had a stop-down preview. I don't doubt there have been Nikons without it, but it's a feature it's hard for me to imagine not having. Are you saying that always being in f-stop preview mode is a benefit? This seems like a bit of a stretch.

..... 

I also think this is where Nikon made a serious mistake with the FTZ adapter system.
Sure have the adapter they currently do, but more importantly, for Nikon from a business perspective ... a full featured adapter would have leveraged the usability of all their previous lenses.
This has been said many times, over and over, but the primary issue with the Z system is the lack of native lenses, hence the FTZ helps with that. So the 'whole system' has an advantage that other systems may(or may not) have had too.
But as said, why go with a Z camera, rather than any other system if you can't leverage all those old semi compatible lenses?
So I'm sure for many that understand this, it may have crossed their minds in some way(ie. induced doubt) when the time came to make a purchase choice.
Therefore, the news that Sony's A7 outsells the Nikon Z pair by a fair number shouldn't come as a surprise.

Nikon should have approached the Z system in totality from the point of view that it will work fully with all the lenses that they currently sell, and the sad point is that the Z cameras don't.
I believe a botched marketing and product management choice from Nikon .. ie. Nikon's current woes are a direct result of mismanagement.

Note tho, the full featured FTZ adapter isn't an accessory that the Z owner has to purchase either, it's obviously an option, and in theory could have been priced even 2x the current FTZ adapter .. or more.
The enthusiast would then have had the option to buy or not. But as it is, Nikon aren't giving those potential customers that choice, they're making it for 'us'.

So imagine the marketing campaign that Nikon could potentially use with just this one optional device .. Choose Nikon Z, and have full access to 60 years of history and over 100+ million lenses
There's no come back here from Sony .. marketing advantage to Nikon!

At a time when camera sales are in free fall, every nano-advantage can only be a good thing .. a few more sales here, a few more accessory sale there .. etc.

As I remember it, when Sony first brought the A7's to market, they had two maybe three adapters(for A mount lenses) of varying feature sets, users then had the option to choose for themselves how much they desired one over the other.

So going from feedback, not just on here, other fora have also had similar opinions on the lack of such an adapter, and recently Thom also made mention of this point too.
I know I'm not yet interested in a Z camera of any type, till more about the 'whole system' is revealed.

So the issue is not so much with the Z system in and of itself .. that appears to be fine. The issue is directed more so towards Nikon's management tactics. The current situation could easily be redressed simply with the release of just such an adapter .. then a push from Nikon as to what it can allow for those that may be interested.

As for EXIF .. why not? It's always better to have included it in the data than not. Again, it comes down to options. Those of us that prefer it .. then have it. Those of you that don't want or need it, then have the option to remove it.
The option to remove it is trivia and easy. The option to add it is not so.

For my non connected lenses, I just add keywords, in the form of IPTC data, which allows me to search for images shot with lens X, set to aperture value f/whatever .. and with or without a TC and whatnot.
No harm in having that kind of access.
Arthur

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2020, 10:35:19 »
Arthur,

The FTZ works with current lenses with possible exception of a few specialty lenses which linger from over a decade ago. Those DC lenses call out for manual focus anyway.  They know which lenses they sell and which have limited sales.

Losing the ability to autofocus screw drive lenses is not a big issue in my opinion, and I’d rather have a lighter reasonably priced FTZ than one which needs to include an additional focus motor - a noisy one which has been superseded a decade ago.

Erik Lund

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2020, 10:52:31 »
I use my Screwdriver AF-D lenses on my D850 no issues at all and many of them are definitely not superseded!
105mm DC f/2.0 AF-D is fast and perfect in AF on the pro cameras  8) Same with 24mm, 180mm AF-D f/2.8 and 50mm f/1.4 AF-D  ;D All perform very well comparable i IQ to my AFS 24-70 f/2.8 E  VR their sound is so muted that I really never had any issue at all with that.

The AF-S f/1.4 lenses focus rather slow to keep accuracy, a design choice that don't fit my shooting style,,,
Sure the pro zooms f/2.8 are fast, but difference in real world is not an issue for me!

Perfectly fine to disagree - Just don't try to change the rest of the world to agree with you  :o
Erik Lund

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2020, 18:15:47 »
I use my Screwdriver AF-D lenses on my D850 no issues at all and many of them are definitely not superseded!
105mm DC f/2.0 AF-D is fast and perfect in AF on the pro cameras  8) Same with 24mm, 180mm AF-D f/2.8 and 50mm f/1.4 AF-D  ;D All perform very well comparable i IQ to my AFS 24-70 f/2.8 E  VR their sound is so muted that I really never had any issue at all with that.

The AF-S f/1.4 lenses focus rather slow to keep accuracy, a design choice that don't fit my shooting style,,,
Sure the pro zooms f/2.8 are fast, but difference in real world is not an issue for me!

Perfectly fine to disagree - Just don't try to change the rest of the world to agree with you  :o

By superseded I mean no longer being sold. I don’t mean they are not fine lenses. If I changed it to no longer manufactured would it make a difference?

Not trying to change your mind, just pointing out why Nikon would reasonably make a decision to not support them. This is a thread about negativity and a lot of it comes from people who have not tried the Z cameras or have a wrong understanding of how they work or, people who think they have a better idea of how it should have been done. I’m a bit tired of negativity in general, so hope to reduce it through education and discussion. I’m am trying to change the world. Why not? It can be better.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2020, 19:30:48 »
You should try one, it's so much easier with a Z.

Yes and no. If you're in really low ambient light and e.g. photographing a group shot with flash, and use the lens stopped down, the image shown in the viewfinder is noisy compared to what it would be with the lens wide open. Also the in- and out-of-focus contrast is better wide open. I always open my lens wide open for focusing using LV even though it involves a lot of jumping through hoops to get there, because I don't trust what I see e.g. at f/11 in darkness. The user should be given the option of wide open composing and stopped down shooting (i.e. automatic aperture, a function which even the original Nikon F had) or if they choose to focus and compose stopped down, that could be a toggle at a press of a button.

Autofocus in low light would be similarly improved if they allowed the camera to focus wide open even for shots where due to depth of field reasons the lens is to be stopped down for the actual photograph. The Z cameras don't have good AF in low light, and anything that Nikon can do to improve it should be considered. Again, it can be a custom setting or a toggle assigned to a Fn button, not something forced on the users.

With regards to supporting motorless AF lenses, I think Nikon probably made the right compromise for the majority of users. LV AF isn't very good with most screwdriver AF lenses. I have tried to use it to focus fine tune my screwdriver lenses but the results of LVAF with them are all over the place, not something that can be trusted in the same way as AF-S Nikkors or better yet AF-P.

I think the reasons for the FTZ not supporting these lenses will become clear soon as the D780 is rumored to have the Z6's on-sensor PDAF, so we can see how AF would work in a mirrorless camera using screwdriver lenses (in live view the camera should perform similarly to the Z6), assuming it has the motor to drive these lenses and assuming that Nikon allows it to be used in LV. Currently Nikon note in the D850 manual:

"Using autofocus in Live View

Use an AF-S or AF-P lens. The desired results may not be achieved with other lenses or teleconverters."

I think it's just best to consider these manual focus lenses whereas mirrorless cameras are concerned and use them with autofocus on DSLRs. But perhaps Nikon surprises me and the D780 does well with them in live view.

Nikon have patented an adapter which would support motorless AF Nikkors and it includes a pellicle mirror and AF module, converting the Z camera into the equivalent of an SLT camera. However, they have so far not decided to bring such a product into the market.

arthurking83

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2020, 00:06:33 »
Obviously the FTZ works with any F mount lens, and works more fully the more modern the lens is. Never doubted that.

.....

Losing the ability to autofocus screw drive lenses is not a big issue in my opinion, and I’d rather have a lighter reasonably priced FTZ than one which needs to include an additional focus motor - a noisy one which has been superseded a decade ago.

Again, the issue isnt' so much what they've provided, in terms of accessories, it's what they haven't. And a good management team, will understand that providing more options to cater to more people would be the ideal situation.
Nikon's F mount reputation(so I believe) was that they created a more fully featured system, then most other companies. Great spread of lens types available to more people with differing requirements.

ie. super expensive 6mm f/2.8 or 300 f/2 lenses for those that need(and can afford) them .. and on the flip side E series lenses for those that only need a lens .. of any type, but at a price.

So again, the issue is, a simple alternate adapter, irrespective of price, but that allows all lenses to operate 'normally' or fully.
Arthur

Erik Lund

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2020, 07:49:45 »
By superseded I mean no longer being sold. I don’t mean they are not fine lenses. If I changed it to no longer manufactured would it make a difference?

Not trying to change your mind, just pointing out why Nikon would reasonably make a decision to not support them. This is a thread about negativity and a lot of it comes from people who have not tried the Z cameras or have a wrong understanding of how they work or, people who think they have a better idea of how it should have been done. I’m a bit tired of negativity in general, so hope to reduce it through education and discussion. I’m am trying to change the world. Why not? It can be better.
Fine, I get it ;)
Erik Lund

rs

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2020, 18:54:14 »
By superseded I mean no longer being sold. I don’t mean they are not fine lenses. If I changed it to no longer manufactured would it make a difference?

Not trying to change your mind, just pointing out why Nikon would reasonably make a decision to not support them.

Hi Jack,

Completely understand your point but at real risk of being pedantic, the Nikon USA site shows 16 screwdriven AF and 8 Ai-s lenses still in the current lineup, and B&H Photo stocking virtually all of them, so you'd think some concession would be made to these and the ones already in the field.

Kind regards,

Richard

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2020, 21:50:04 »
They make D500, D750, D850, D5 and soon D6 (and possibly D780). All of these cameras support most (reasonably) old and new F mount lenses. The D7500 gives support for CPU lenses but not metering without CPU.  How many different camera models do you need? Given that Nikon sell far fewer cameras now than they used to (per time), I can't really blame them for not offering sufficient options.

JohnMM

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2020, 23:06:03 »
Nikon has a very bad habit indeed of issuing "hobbled" cameras without AI followers that provide less than full functionality with non-electronic lenses. 
It goes a long way back to their entry level electronic cameras such as their film SLRs (F60, F50, F55 etc)  as well as the first DSLRs (D100, D70, D70S, D40, D50,D90, D8-, D3xxx, D5xxx, D7500 and so on.........).

Nikon's "very bad habit" enabled me to buy a DSLR camera (D40x) when other more highly functionalised cameras (D80 & D200) using the same sensor were too expensive.
John Maud - aka Coreopsis in another place.

chambeshi

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #72 on: January 04, 2020, 10:14:28 »
Hi Jack,

Completely understand your point but at real risk of being pedantic, the Nikon USA site shows 16 screwdriven AF and 8 Ai-s lenses still in the current lineup, and B&H Photo stocking virtually all of them, so you'd think some concession would be made to these and the ones already in the field.

Kind regards,

Richard


Complaints about compatibility of older F-Nikon lenses with the Nikon Z cameras show no signs of fading. Yes,  F-Mount specifications changed in significant steps, notably since the 1980s. This was long after Nikon introduced auto-indexing, when Autofocus demanded much juggling by Nikon. Features such as the ability to estimating Distance and log exif data etc has added more and more electronics into the lens. Since we have Electronic aperture control and AFP (which was developed probably in tandem with the Z system). All these features are well documented as are the implications for using older lenses on newer F cameras (and latterly Z Nikons). Simon Stafford's New Nikon Compendium is a useful synopsis up until ~2005. The reality is the enthusiast DSLRs have maintained the functionalities of key features with F-Nikkors of AI spec and more recent.

The realities for Nikon include: (1) a significant proportion of its users still use Nikkors of the AI, AIS, AF and AFD eras. They do so with consummate satisfaction. They want to maintain their lens systems with the same functionality on new Nikon cameras. This applies especially to the AI and AFD features to benefit from all the excellent MILC features in Nikon Z cameras.

 (2) The new MILC systems are opening up the Old Lens Revival. These Classics appeal to a new market i.e. emerging photographers; and some of these youngsters experiment with film but are firmly embedded in all the technology that is "generation X" (unwieldy term that it is)

 (3) My long argument above points out the current inventory statistics ie new AIS and AFD F-Nikkors, and this is allied to (4) The huge growth in smaller scale video (but also mainstream movies). This has also revived interest in selected Classic Nikkors.

The trend possibly began with Nikon dropping support for AI with the D7500, which invoked contempt from most users I know. At the release of the Z-system in August the Nikon marketing (uated again below) highlighted F to Z compatibility as a sine qua non of the Nikon heritage. In reality, the FTZ has fallen short. The repeated response against  a broader option in FTZ adapters is invariably "...I don't need one, it will be too expensive.....be thankful for what Nikon has given us..." etc. Those with no need for such a device can ignore it.

It must be to Nikon's strategic advantage to close the gaps in compatibility. Its marketing could indeed be able to highlight the truth of the company's unique status etc. Yes, a FTZd sold at profit would also sell more new new Z cameras for Nikon. These sales will in turn leverage sales of new Z-Nikkors for some of these owners - supplementing inherited optics.

Appended quote from Nikon Marketing:  “Great glass endures. That's why Nikon cameras—from the Nikon F in 1959 all the way to D850—have remained compatible with nearly all F-mount NIKKOR lenses. Why would things be any different with the Nikon Z? The Mount Adapter FTZ lets you keep shooting the lenses you know and love while also gaining the benefits of the new Z system. The legacy of compatibility continues."
And reading further:
 “…So many possibilities.
Compatible with a huge selection of NIKKOR lenses.
The Mount Adapter FTZ works with approx. 360 lenses in total, 90 of which are AF-S, AF-P or AF-I type and have full AF/AE capability.”

#chambeshiphoto
D850, Z7, 20 f4 AI 28 f2.8AIS 45 f2.8AIP 55mm 2.8AIS+60 f2.8G Micro 58 f1.4G, 85 f1.4D, 400 f2.8E VRII 300 f4E PF 500 f5.6E PF, 70-180 Micro f4-5.6D 70-200 f2.8E FL, Zeiss Distagons -15 f2.8, 21 f2.8