Author Topic: Nikon Negativity  (Read 4029 times)

BEZ

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2019, 19:18:01 »
Ilkka,
Wonderfully balanced observation of the current Nikon situation. Unfortunately such rational thoughts would never attract a mass Youtube/internet following.

EriK,
You have to realise your capacity to carry camera equipment exceeds most other peoples :-)
Bez

Akira

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2019, 00:25:27 »
Thom is the new camera Messiah.

He is also the Oracle.

We all hail Thom, the Ohh so knowledgeable to make few bucks out of click and bait articles.

The Oracles: Northrump - the guy with the afro hair - Steve Master Perry - Thein - The Village idiot vlogger with the glasses and balloon face - the three wise men and their elephant - and the moron who left Nikon for Sony -  the Zeiss guy and few others.

A new religion is born and it is the Social Media Money Machine= SMMM

Everybody knows more that the Nikon Designers - Technicians - Maktg - Sales and Management.
Even the hotel doorman has solid advise to the Nikon people.

Similar to the TV football fans slouched on their couches with their slippers off. They know better than the Coach and Players.

Welcome to Social Media.

...and then comes Noah's ark...
"The eye is blind if the mind is absent." - Confucius

"Limitation is inspiration." - Akira

Frank Fremerey

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2019, 12:24:51 »
Bear, Don't believe everything you read on the internet.  Especially don't lose sleep over it. Since finding nikongear a few years ago, the amount of blogger noise about new gear that I look at is now approaching zero.  Keep taking those excellent bird photos  -  John

Oups, is there really another site than Nikongear?
Really?

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You are out there. You and your camera. You can shoot or not shoot as you please. Discover the world, Your world. Show it to us. Or we might never see it.

Me: https://youpic.com/photographer/frankfremerey/

Erik Lund

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2019, 12:31:52 »
...and then comes Noah's ark...
Nice little fp there  ;) 8) Very cute!
Erik Lund

Akira

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2019, 19:30:26 »
Nice little fp there  ;) 8) Very cute!

The images "from" the camera will follow shortly.  :)
"The eye is blind if the mind is absent." - Confucius

"Limitation is inspiration." - Akira

Ann

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2019, 20:14:33 »
Nikon make the kind of equipment which I like to use and I have every reason to believe that they will continue to do so; although prices for high-end gear may have to be increased as the casual snap-shooters no longer buy a camera but turn to their iPhones instead.

20 years ago casual snap-shooters used Point-&-Shoots, and would never have considered buying a Nikon camera, so the wheel is only turning full circle — back to the way that it always was.

Netr

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2019, 20:41:16 »
More agreement with Illka's post. Thank you.  Well thought through and written.

Steinar Kibsgaard

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2019, 18:48:37 »
I like Thom, I take him with a grain of salt. I think he combines understanding of the camera business, including data, and what different levels of photographers want.

I don’t read that article as negative, he put a lot of effort into it, he wants Nikon to succeed.

Nikon is in a tough spot, the were way too slow to FF mirrorless.

Of course the clear path for Nikon success is a mirrorless Df, amiright??!

Agree - I can add: His manuals for Nikons is the very best, very thorough.

Anthony

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2019, 17:30:25 »
Nikon makes wonderful camera equipment but is doing badly in the market.

That is an issue worth discussing, and is not Nikon bashing.

From my personal point of view, Nikon's failure to press forward with a mirrorless system was the cause of my moving to Fuji.  I have the V1 and the AW1, but these cameras had control systems which seem to have been designed to put off enthusiasts.  It may be that they were trying to protect their DSLR business, but if so it was a significant error of judgment.  Had they developed the I range properly and introduced the Z range sooner, I would still be a Nikon shooter.

Ultimately, it is not about any of our individual personal preferences, but about what the market wants; and Nikon got this wrong.  I hope the Z series will be a great success.
Anthony Macaulay

Nikfuson

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2019, 21:42:04 »
There is only one solution for Nikon; they need frequent updates of the Z-series bodies and push out lenses faster than the current road map suggests.

Anthony

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2019, 22:27:43 »
There is only one solution for Nikon; they need frequent updates of the Z-series bodies and push out lenses faster than the current road map suggests.

I don't know if this is the solution.  But the suggestion that someone made that Nikon should invest in making its own sensors is obviously wrong.  Nikon sensors get top marks in independent surveys, way ahead of Canon.  Which makes its market underperformance even harder to understand.
Anthony Macaulay

RobOK

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2019, 01:27:46 »
I don't know if this is the solution.  But the suggestion that someone made that Nikon should invest in making its own sensors is obviously wrong.  Nikon sensors get top marks in independent surveys, way ahead of Canon.  Which makes its market underperformance even harder to understand.

Nikon designs its sensors and in almost all cases, Sony manufactures them for Nikon. There are some that say this gives Sony and advantage. I think that is too simple of an evaluation of the business and strategy of the company. Nikon has a certain special sauce in imaging, the combination of the sensors, the ergonomics (haptics?), the continuity or legacy, the quality.... they need to keep playing to their strengths.

And of course come up with a Z-version Df2!!

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2019, 14:20:29 »
From my personal point of view, Nikon's failure to press forward with a mirrorless system was the cause of my moving to Fuji.  I have the V1 and the AW1, but these cameras had control systems which seem to have been designed to put off enthusiasts.  It may be that they were trying to protect their DSLR business, but if so it was a significant error of judgment.  Had they developed the I range properly and introduced the Z range sooner, I would still be a Nikon shooter.

Well, the issue now after they introduced the Z is that their sales are falling faster than before because during the time they don't have complete Z system many customers will wait for a more complete system and because the Z has nevertheless been launched, many have stopped buying F mount equipment. If Nikon had launched the Z five years ago, their fall would simply have been accelerated (since it would have taken a long time for the mirrorless sales to pick up the lost DSLR sales). With mirrorless, companies start largely from scratch building new systems so companies that had previously good positions in the market will fall from a high place. I don't see how this could have been avoided. However, in my opinion the Z products are really nice; I especially like what they've done with the optics and handling of the cameras. If people simply give Nikon enough time to build their new system, I believe they will eventually do fine. Personally my enjoyment of photography is dependent on the optical viewfinder and I don't contribute to the chaos (bought two new F mount Nikkors this year). I get the advantages of mirrorless cameras (and use some micro four thirds cameras at work for photogrammetry and video) but don't currently own one for personal use. I will eventually buy a Z camera and lenses because I like some of the lenses they've come up with but not now. I've spent money on new computer hardware and ligthing tools and can't really afford the purchase of a new system of cameras and lenses at this time. The low-light AF also has failed to impress me in the Z7 from what I've tried it. I think it can be solved using the following way: when the light is low, low enough that the data is too noisy to focus using, offer the user two options: increase focus area size (less precise AF point control but by spatial averaging, reduce the noise), and increase integration time (slower focusing but noise in the AF  data is reduced by temporal averaging). I believe that both of these can be implemented using current hardware simply by working on the algorithms. They also need to offer "nearest subject priority" such as currently offered by group-area AF in DSLRs; this doesn't allow the photographer as precise pointing of the exact position on the subject to focus on, but by considering a larger area (5 points in Multi-CAM 3500; up to 13 points in Multi-CAM 20k?) the system is able to focus on subjects in dimmer light and can handle faster movement. Something that they also need to work on is focusing based on subject recognition (eye AF is an example of this) but to make that perform really well, they might need to improve the processing hardware as well; not sure what the bottleneck is. Anyway I am sure that Nikon know this and are working on solutions to the problems. Once they do, I believe the Z sales will pick up.

If Nikon had abandoned F mount system development I would probably have sold my stuff and moved to Canon or quit photography altogether (I really would prefer not to buy more than one system in a lifetime, as it is wasteful to have to spend a lot of money to barely stand still or drift backwards), so it's not clear how to keep all customers using only one approach and one product line. They need to look at diverse photographer needs and address them as well as they can. I think the main issue with Z is the AF; the lenses are great and the bodies are nice to use, and it only takes a couple of years to have most lenses that most people need available as native lenses. Even with the current AF for many subjects it works fine, it's mainly just the edges of the performance envelope (low light and fast-moving subjects) that need work. Some photographers have moved to Z7 and note the Z7 focuses more accurately than DSLRs for long-distance subjects, for example. I don't quite understand the negativivity, except that negativity and provocative comments get noticed and result in clicks. It's like people enjoy feasting on someone's misfortune.

Quote
Ultimately, it is not about any of our individual personal preferences, but about what the market wants; and Nikon got this wrong.  I hope the Z series will be a great success.

I disagree, there is no "one market" which can be addressed by making a certain type of product, but many different users with different needs and preferences.

I do agree the 1 series was a mistake but then even that is not so clear looking at how well Sony are doing with their RX100 series of compact cameras that feature many of the 1-series features that Nikon were pioneering. Basically the market for that kind of small-sensor camera with high fps and fast AF is still there, but with a fixed lens rather than interchangeable lenses. No one has a crystal ball that can see what will happen in the future. ILC users predominantly want larger sensors, that much has become clear.

Anthony

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2019, 19:47:03 »

I disagree, there is no "one market" which can be addressed by making a certain type of product, but many different users with different needs and preferences.

I do agree the 1 series was a mistake but then even that is not so clear looking at how well Sony are doing with their RX100 series of compact cameras that feature many of the 1-series features that Nikon were pioneering. Basically the market for that kind of small-sensor camera with high fps and fast AF is still there, but with a fixed lens rather than interchangeable lenses. No one has a crystal ball that can see what will happen in the future. ILC users predominantly want larger sensors, that much has become clear.

You make good points, but we are left with the ridiculous situation that Nikon is contending with comparative newcomer Sony for second place behind Canon.  For a company which makes great products and has an iconic position in camera and lens history, this is a sign that something is wrong;  their marketing strategy is the most likely problem.  And this may come from the corporate culture.

A few days ago Fuji opened a showroom in the Covent Garden area of London, which is a popular visitor destination, with many retail shops including a large Apple showroom.  I went to see it a few minutes after it opened, but gave up a there were hundreds of people queuing to get in.  There were special offers for the first hundred customers, but far more than that were there.  The showroom is open, bright, lots of equipment to play with, and lots of emphasis on what could be done with Fuji equipment.  It had an Apple-like vibe.  It felt customer focussed not product focussed.  The head of the Instax division of Fuji UK spent quite some time explaining to me how people use instant prints in social settings. It was an eye opener for me (and definitely not my world).  The opening seemed to be a great success for Fuji, and the excellent location will ensure their visibility to the public.

The London Nikon showroom, in contrast, is in a side street near Oxford Street, but with very few passing visitors.  You have to press a doorbell to be allowed in.  The layout is traditional, with most product in glass cases.  The staff are excellent, but the atmosphere is rather old fashioned compared with the Fuji offering.

I do hope that Nikon changes its approach to one which does justice to its excellent products.
Anthony Macaulay

RobOK

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Re: Nikon Negativity
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2019, 19:59:55 »
A few days ago Fuji opened a showroom in the Covent Garden area of London, which is a popular visitor destination, with many retail shops including a large Apple showroom.  I went to see it a few minutes after it opened, but gave up a there were hundreds of people queuing to get in. .... It had an Apple-like vibe.  It felt customer focussed not product focussed.
.....
The London Nikon showroom, in contrast, is in a side street near Oxford Street, but with very few passing visitors.  You have to press a doorbell to be allowed in.  The layout is traditional, with most product in glass cases.  The staff are excellent, but the atmosphere is rather old fashioned compared with the Fuji offering.

Great vignettes, I agree Nikon has to change -- not to be glitzy for the sake of it, but to be more customer-centric. What are the use cases day to day where (non-paid) photographers are deciding whether to bring a camera or a smart phone to a social outing and want images to move quickly from camera to phone to sharing. I am not saying that is true for all my photography, but i want that option of speed and flow for the times I want it. 

Fuji does have this more in hand I can say as an owner of the X100F and an Instax instant printer.