Author Topic: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…  (Read 13808 times)

jhinkey

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2018, 18:46:19 »
The native manual focus lenses for the Sony e-mount (Loxia’s, Voigtlanders) all use stopped down metering and focussing, there isn’t that much complaining about that. I wouldn’t be suprised that Nikon recognised this and intended the aperture lever for CPU lenses only, all lenses without CPU to be used stopped down...

Yes there is no complaining, but in those cases with those lenses the camera knows what aperture is being used and records this into EXIF.  This is handy for many reasons, one being that correction profiles are applied, the specifics of which depend on what aperture was used.
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jhinkey

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2018, 20:13:08 »
Yes there is no complaining, but in those cases with those lenses the camera knows what aperture is being used and records this into EXIF.  This is handy for many reasons, one being that correction profiles are applied, the specifics of which depend on what aperture was used.

It's also very nice to go back and see what aperture shots were taken at . . . .
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MILLIREHM

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2018, 22:14:27 »
Probably it would be technically possible to build an FTZ2 adapter with AI compatibility. That required an AI coupling lever on the adapter (ready for put it out of the way of Non AI- lenses) and an sensor that records the positiion, plus a changed operation mode for the stop down- lever for AI-(S) lenses. The question is, whether the electrical contacts in the bayonet are ready for that and a firmware upgrade for the camera would do it.
Of course it would be nice to have that for increased compatibility with all sorts of non-PU  F mount lenses - i doubt that we wil see that though
Wolfgang Rehm

pluton

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2018, 07:11:29 »
Not including an Ai follower on the body and, failing that, not including an Ai follower mechanism with on the FTZ is Nikon's current statement on backwards compatibility. 
I always felt that if Nikon bodies were to disappear, I could always use the F lenses on a Sony through a dumb adapter.  Not fun, but ok for slow moving tripod work.
 Looks like the Z cams will essentially provide a less-than-full-, and better-than-dumb functionality, with the added bonus that the body ergonomics and topside display of the Z's are obviously superior to the current Sonys.
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Erik Lund

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2018, 08:10:50 »
Probably it would be technically possible to build an FTZ2 adapter with AI compatibility. That required an AI coupling lever on the adapter (ready for put it out of the way of Non AI- lenses) and an sensor that records the positiion, plus a changed operation mode for the stop down- lever for AI-(S) lenses. The question is, whether the electrical contacts in the bayonet are ready for that and a firmware upgrade for the camera would do it.
Of course it would be nice to have that for increased compatibility with all sorts of non-PU  F mount lenses - i doubt that we wil see that though


Ai lenses are not unlinear in the same way, some of them are way off, some are almost linear, so I don't think this would work at all.


Leica patented a way to estimate the aperture without an Ai connection, they have an external sensor on the digital Leica M cameras that compare the light through the lens with this outside sensor. Then the software makes an calculated guess since it knows what lens is mounted, simple and it works quite well, although stopped down! A Classic rangefinder solution ;)
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MILLIREHM

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2018, 08:57:16 »

Ai lenses are not unlinear in the same way, some of them are way off, some are almost linear, so I don't think this would work at all.
would be good at least for the vast range of linear AI-S lenses (then the difference would matter again, most of my non-CPU lenses are AI-S btw)

Leica patented a way to estimate the aperture without an Ai connection, they have an external sensor on the digital Leica M cameras that compare the light through the lens with this outside sensor. Then the software makes an calculated guess since it knows what lens is mounted, simple and it works quite well, although stopped down! A Classic rangefinder solution ;)
Sounds like a very smart solution.
Wolfgang Rehm

Per Inge Oestmoen

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2018, 12:16:21 »
Even at f/5.6, in daylight the light reaching the sensor/meter is much greater than when shooting indoors or twilight conditions. Unlike the DOF preview of SLRs, the stopped-down lens does not need to result in a dim viewfinder, the EVF can compensate and give a bright view. Stop-down metering in theory could be more accurate since there is no discrepancy between the preset aperture and the actual aperture. Stop-down shooting also eliminates focus-shift which may occur between full-aperture and stopped down.

The disadvantages of stop-down shooting is that the DOF becomes greater so it is harder to distinguish between perfectly-in-focus and nearly-in-focus. When shooting in dim conditions with small apertures, the amount of light may be too small for accurate metering, and the EVF becomes noisy.


Pardon me for saying this bluntly, but: No way. Unfortunately things are not that easy. During the couple of hours I was able to try out the Z6 and Z7 models, I naturally also tried what happened when I mounted an AIS lens - by the way the Nikkor 35mm 2.0 AIS. The lens of course mounted fine and it would meter - so far so good.

However, it turned out to be far from good, precisely because of the stop down metering. When I stopped down to F/5.6 and further down, it was disspiriting to see how the electronic viewfinder image lost in dynamic range and quality. In other words, if the system fails to provide for metering at full aperture the compensation by the electronic finder necessarily leads to reduced quality. As a result, a stopped down image is in no way superior to an optical image through the D750 and D850, even in available light conditions. It is inferior, and this reality should be spoken about openly so that owners of the many good to brilliant manual Nikkors can make an informed choice. I now have first hand experience from both, and it simply is mistaken to believe that the electronic viewfinder's compensation for darker conditions means that all is well.

It would seem it is a matter of psychological perception rather than a realistic assessment if we decide that the EVF is generally superior to the OVF. What is true, is that the OVF becomes darker in dark conditions. But that does not imply that it is inferior. Darker, but still clear - and the DOF preview which requires the system to offer metering wide open is an advantage that in my opinion is as least as important as the focus shift. Focus shift is a real problem in macro shooting, but the thing is that the optical finder has been completed today by Live View which solves and eliminates the focus shift problem without the need for abandoning the optical viewfinder.

Modern cameras have been increasingly able to focus in dim light. Just think about the focus peaking feature of the D850, which is a present pinnacle of camera performance in available light.

But to conclude with the original point: There is no way around it: Stop down metering is not progress, it means a factual regression back to the (darker) days before metering at full aperture was invented. Metering at full aperture should be considered a matter of course, and was and is true progress.
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Per Inge Oestmoen

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2018, 12:34:45 »
Yes there is no complaining, but in those cases with those lenses the camera knows what aperture is being used and records this into EXIF.  This is handy for many reasons, one being that correction profiles are applied, the specifics of which depend on what aperture was used.


I am not so sure that there is no complaining. Or rather, if there is no complaining from those who have migrated to another manufacturer it is a little rash to then conclude that the majority of serious photographers are so fond of a factual mount incompatibility.

It is as likely as not that there are numerous photographers, amateurs and professionals alike, out there who have invested in high quality lenses for thousands or tens of thousands of dollars and who feel little temptation to accept having to insert an adapter between all their precious lenses and the camera body in order to be able to use their brilliant glass.

The Z system is a - welcome - addition to the existing F system, but I see no reason why the (D)SLR system with an optical viewfinder cannot live side by side with the mirrorless system. The point is that these are different systems, and even if they are said to be compatible they are only partly so. The need for an adapter - an unnecessary and inconvenient insertion between camera and lens - means they are not compatible even if there is of course no loss in optical quality. In addition, the manual Nikkors can only be used with stop down metering. When the EVF has to compensate for the light loss when stopping down, it becomes very clear that the EVF is not superior to the OVF. We might really think it over, is the OVF really obsoleted by the EVF, are things as easy as that?

Of course, the Z system is a separate system which deserves to be judged by its own merits. But again, they may complement each other.

I for one can very easily see how I may complete my photographic toolbox with a Z camera and a couple of lenses in the future.
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Erik Lund

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2018, 13:52:05 »


Pardon me for saying this bluntly, but: No way. Unfortunately things are not that easy. During the couple of hours I was able to try out the Z6 and Z7 models, I naturally also tried what happened when I mounted an AIS lens - by the way the Nikkor 35mm 2.0 AIS. The lens of course mounted fine and it would meter - so far so good.

However, it turned out to be far from good, precisely because of the stop down metering. When I stopped down to F/5.6 and further down, it was disspiriting to see how the electronic viewfinder image lost in dynamic range and quality. In other words, if the system fails to provide for metering at full aperture the compensation by the electronic finder necessarily leads to reduced quality. As a result, a stopped down image is in no way superior to an optical image through the D750 and D850, even in available light conditions. It is inferior, and this reality should be spoken about openly so that owners of the many good to brilliant manual Nikkors can make an informed choice. I now have first hand experience from both, and it simply is mistaken to believe that the electronic viewfinder's compensation for darker conditions means that all is well. ,,,


This is similar to the Sony A7X series of finders, for wide angle lenses the issue is even worse in that you turn the focusring and it seems everything is in focus more or less, even with the 'red outline' that should highlight the in focus plane, every thing lights up, however the very high resolution sensors that capture the final actual image show clearly that this is not the case that it will all be in perfect focus, far from! so for stop down focusing you need rangefinder capability for sharp UWA and WA lenses (issue was worst with 24mm f/3.8 ASPH Leica M) unusable combination on Sony A7x series
Erik Lund

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2018, 14:03:32 »
A fully Ai-compatible adapter is possible, of course, but it would likely be more expensive and a bit less robust (the Ai readout mechanism can stop working).

Perhaps Nikon can be persuaded to make one, but they want to sell new lenses also. And they want to sell DSLRs as well.

Per Inge Oestmoen

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2018, 14:26:34 »
A fully Ai-compatible adapter is possible, of course, but it would likely be more expensive and a bit less robust (the Ai readout mechanism can stop working).

Perhaps Nikon can be persuaded to make one, but they want to sell new lenses also. And they want to sell DSLRs as well.


And I for one want to buy DSLRs. I suspect that many others will want the optical viewfinder too.

Also, it is difficult to be very inspired to first buy a number of high quality AF-S lenses and then have to insert an extra gadget between the lens and the camera in order to be able to use the technological marvels that these lenses are. Apart from that, I see absolutely no reason why the mirrorless system should be the only one.

On the contrary I see every reason why the mirrorless, the (D)SLR and the rangefinder systems can and should co-exist also in the far future.
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Stany Buyle

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The F mount adapter exceeds my expectations...
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2018, 16:39:55 »
Hi everybody!
Six weeks ago I started this topic titled "The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…". TMHO the primary aspect that would turn Nikon mirrorless into a huge success or a failure.
Well, after testing a Z7 for a couple of hours with the 200-500 AF-S VR, the nikon 105 AF-S, a 20 mm F1.8, my 70-200 AF-S FL, some prehistoric nkkors like the 55 mm F2.8 micro and even with a BR-2a macro reverse ring with an old 28mm on it (*) , I can only confirm that the FTZ adapter and related tech is something to be proud about. It simply works flawless with all the lenses I used…  Kudos to Nikon.


(*) =  Nikon Z7 with FTZ and a BR-2a macro reverse ring + reversed nikkor 28mm F2.8 E. (picture with my phone)

Among all lenses I tested on the Z7 with FTZ adapter, the 200-500 AF-S Vr impressed me the most.
It focuses and locks focus relative fast but it blew me away with images in the very close focus range, with an even significantly better VR performance than the extraordinary VR this lens natively already has.
Underneath an image taken HANDHELD, Manual mode, 1/1250 sec, F5.6 @ 500mm. Auto iso (iso 400)
The image has not been sharpened or PP. Only converted from NEF in view NX-i with my preferred picture style for this kind of images.



and a crop of the above image, resized to 1000px longest side: (click on the image to get the 100% crop)


I wrote all the above and more on my website in this topic: Nikon Z7 hands on review

Kindest regards,

Stany

Birna Rørslett

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2018, 17:19:28 »
You confirm my initial impressions. Just waiting, a bit impatiently, for my own Z-cameras to arrive.

chambeshi

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2018, 10:11:25 »
Nikon's released Digitutor videos

here is the one on the adapter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekgkT7SU6d0

Fons Baerken

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Re: The F mount adapter quality will be the key part…
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2018, 10:26:52 »
Nikon's released Digitutor videos

here is the one on the adapter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekgkT7SU6d0

That was to be expected yet no mention of non- ai lenses.