D850 and the need for faster shutter speed (?)

[Frode]

Thinking of trading my D4s for a D850, but;

Normally, when handholding, I understand that I need shutter speed at least the same amount as the focal length (200mm= 1/200 or faster) in order to get sharp images.

With cameras like the D850, some suggest double or triple the shutter speed (?) when hand holding.

But; what about subject movement, does this also require faster shutter speed compared to cameras with fewer MP? I would think so, but how much faster - experience?

Normally I’m managing with ISO 6400 regarding my kind of photographing, but I’m afraid the need for even faster shutter speed will result in need for ISO 12800 more often.....(my local salesman advice to max out at ISO 3200 with the D850 - I know he’s quite demanding regarding IQ, so I think ISO 6400 might do it for me 🙂 ).

[Ilkka Nissilä]

1/FL as a guideline for hand held shots is applicable to images to be used for small prints (10x15cm) or mobile phone screen viewing and even there I find it to be optimistic ("almost sharp"). I have been using 1/(3*FL) (or 1/200s, whichever is faster) for shutter speed as a guideline for many years; if you want to get the most detail out of shots and if you have either camera or subject movement, then fast speeds are a good way to get the best results under the circumstances. For faster subjects you may need faster speeds and slower subjects combined with VR may let you get away with even 1/FL if you are lucky.

The image is recorded using a larger number of pixels in a D850. Any movement that you see at 16MP is not going to turn worse in the final print (or display) if you use a 45MP sensor to capture it. But if you plan on printing larger then you get more benefit from the high resolution sensor if you use faster shutter speeds (or tripod, depending on applicability to subject and conditions).

If you are going to be using iso 6400 or 12800 a lot, then I would just keep using your D4s, or trade it in for a D5. I don't think the D850 will give you much advantage at those ISO settings, except possible due to autofocus improvements. D850 is like its predecessors in that you get the most benefits at low to medium ISO; you can use it at very high ISO but you may find yourself with very large and noisy files (which may be usable but the final quality is not going to be an improvement over what you currently use, and the large files consume a lot of hard drive and card space and processing power to get them edited).

[Frode]

1/FL as a guideline for hand held shots is applicable to images to be used for small prints (10x15cm) or mobile phone screen viewing and even there I find it to be optimistic ("almost sharp"). I have been using 1/(3*FL) (or 1/200s, whichever is faster) for shutter speed as a guideline for many years; if you want to get the most detail out of shots and if you have either camera or subject movement, then fast speeds are a good way to get the best results under the circumstances. For faster subjects you may need faster speeds and slower subjects combined with VR may let you get away with even 1/FL if you are lucky.

The image is recorded using a larger number of pixels in a D850. Any movement that you see at 16MP is not going to turn worse in the final print (or display) if you use a 45MP sensor to capture it. But if you plan on printing larger then you get more benefit from the high resolution sensor if you use faster shutter speeds (or tripod, depending on applicability to subject and conditions).

If you are going to be using iso 6400 or 12800 a lot, then I would just keep using your D4s, or trade it in for a D5. I don't think the D850 will give you much advantage at those ISO settings, except possible due to autofocus improvements. D850 is like its predecessors in that you get the most benefits at low to medium ISO; you can use it at very high ISO but you may find yourself with very large and noisy files (which may be usable but the final quality is not going to be an improvement over what you currently use, and the large files consume a lot of hard drive and card space and processing power to get them edited).

Thank you, Ilkka .

I might have been too optimistic regarding 1/FL - maybe the «old school» is getting too old . I’ll give 2-3/FL a try .

This also tells me that with a D850 I’ll then often end up using iso 3200- 12800 (dusk/dawn/indoor)

Maybe a better solution for me will be to add a used D810 instead. Will miss the auto AF fine tuning option and AF from the D850, though .

[armando_m]

In my case it was a matter of practice, when I got the D800 I was surprised how many of my shots had camera shake, now 6 yrs later I can handhold at 1/FL and get a decent amount of good shots

[Frode]

In my case it was a matter of practice, when I got the D800 I was surprised how many of my shots had camera shake, now 6 yrs later I can handhold at 1/FL and get a decent amount of good shots

Thank you, Armando .

My technique need practice, no doubt about that . I’ve had quite a challenge with my 400mm in the beginning - still miss some shots due to my relative poor technique (sometimes too hard on the release- button)....

From now on I’ll try both 1/FL with focus on my technique, and 2- 3/FL. If I can manage with 1/FL I’ll be satisfied.

[Ilkka Nissilä]

The D850's AF does give a significant advantage especially in low light and if you use the outermost focus points (with f/4 or faster lenses that support cross type sensors in the outer areas). I always liked the D810 but the new AF is worth a look.

ISO 3200 would be within the D850's envelope of good image quality. I think this image was shot at ISO 3200 and cropped from a horizontal image to vertical:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ilkka_nissila/25753041717/in/dateposted-public/

I didn't have time to turn the camera around.

It's always good to remember that even if you don't make the most out of the camera's resolution, the higher resolution isn't going to make the image worse. But the D810 is also a very nice camera and it's a solid choice that is available at a lower cost today.

[Jacques Pochoy]

In my case it was a matter of practice, when I got the D800 I was surprised how many of my shots had camera shake, now 6 yrs later I can handhold at 1/FL and get a decent amount of good shots

I would agree with Armando... I had the same problem when jumping from the D700 to the D3x. I thought at first that The bigger photosite captor induced a need for higher speed, but in fact I discovered that it was mostly my sloppy (or lazy) way of holding the camera ! I had been spoilt by the D70, D200, D700 with which you could even shoot one handed (and get results).
I trier to compare my use of Kodachrome 25 years ago (or technical Pan), hand held and concluded that in film times (and manual focus), with lesser speeds and big clunky mirrors we did manage to get sharp pictures even a big enlargements. So it had to be something else...
While we do not have here the culture of using frequently a tripod (Cartier-Bresson's era), I do have some old Gitzos and tried them... Perfectly sharp on my D3x ! So I learned again to hold properly my camera !
If I manage to get a D850 (mostly a price problem and maybe a philosophical one) I guess it will be the same effect getting there from the DF, I'll have to learn all over again 

[Frank Fremerey]

Ilkka said it all. I like to emphasize a few things:

IMO the D850 is the best camera currently available when it comes to color fidelity at base ISO. So all work done in stark light, studio light, table top, tripod will be worlds apart from the D4s

but: if fast subjects combined with low light are your daily bread go for the D5, used if necessary or trade in or if your local NPS supports you e-infin.com

1/FL is always a question of magnification. Coming from the D70 to the D3, Micro Nikkor shots in the near field (high magnification) always needed 1/200 if a second or faster.

Later my technique got better but I bought the gorgeous 24MP D600. Again I had to learn everything afresh. 24 is much more demanding than 12. Same again switching to the D500 and D850 (same pixel density, same technique and FL factor necessary)

[Peter Forsell]

Decades ago Ansel Adams* wrote in his book The Camera that when using a 35mm SLR with a 50 mm lens he needed 1/250 to get critically sharp pictures. Lenses and sensors have only gotten better and more detailed since that. Seems that the 1/FL "rule" was bad already 40 years ago.

* page 116, First edition, second printing, 1981

[Akira]

I would have nothing to add, but...

My keeper rate raised marginally when I switched from D7000 to D750.  The 16MP DX sensor of D7000 was of an FX D800/810-class one in terms of pixel density.  I find the 24MP D750 is a little more forgiving.  But I would have to say that even at 1/125 sec. with a 50mm lens, you are not allowed to be nonchalant.

[Frode]

The D850's AF does give a significant advantage especially in low light and if you use the outermost focus points (with f/4 or faster lenses that support cross type sensors in the outer areas). I always liked the D810 but the new AF is worth a look.

ISO 3200 would be within the D850's envelope of good image quality. I think this image was shot at ISO 3200 and cropped from a horizontal image to vertical:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ilkka_nissila/25753041717/in/dateposted-public/

I didn't have time to turn the camera around.

It's always good to remember that even if you don't make the most out of the camera's resolution, the higher resolution isn't going to make the image worse. But the D810 is also a very nice camera and it's a solid choice that is available at a lower cost today.

Nice one, Ilkka .

I’m using the 400 2.8 VR, 85 1.8G, 50 1.8G and 20 1.8G.

Agree, iso 3200 should work fine .

The AF on D850 sounds promising.......

[Frode]

I would agree with Armando... I had the same problem when jumping from the D700 to the D3x. I thought at first that The bigger photosite captor induced a need for higher speed, but in fact I discovered that it was mostly my sloppy (or lazy) way of holding the camera ! I had been spoilt by the D70, D200, D700 with which you could even shoot one handed (and get results).
I trier to compare my use of Kodachrome 25 years ago (or technical Pan), hand held and concluded that in film times (and manual focus), with lesser speeds and big clunky mirrors we did manage to get sharp pictures even a big enlargements. So it had to be something else...
While we do not have here the culture of using frequently a tripod (Cartier-Bresson's era), I do have some old Gitzos and tried them... Perfectly sharp on my D3x ! So I learned again to hold properly my camera !
If I manage to get a D850 (mostly a price problem and maybe a philosophical one) I guess it will be the same effect getting there from the DF, I'll have to learn all over again 

Thank you, Jacques 🙂.

In my case, when I come to think of it, I think I’ll increase my keeper rate by «slowing down» - react to action in a more «smoother» way. Also, more gently on the release button.

Still, looks like I’ve got to at least double my shutter speed (from 1/FL - 2/FL).

[Frode]

Ilkka said it all. I like to emphasize a few things:

IMO the D850 is the best camera currently available when it comes to color fidelity at base ISO. So all work done in stark light, studio light, table top, tripod will be worlds apart from the D4s

but: if fast subjects combined with low light are your daily bread go for the D5, used if necessary or trade in or if your local NPS supports you e-infin.com

1/FL is always a question of magnification. Coming from the D70 to the D3, Micro Nikkor shots in the near field (high magnification) always needed 1/200 if a second or faster.

Later my technique got better but I bought the gorgeous 24MP D600. Again I had to learn everything afresh. 24 is much more demanding than 12. Same again switching to the D500 and D850 (same pixel density, same technique and FL factor necessary)

Thank you, Frank 🙂.

What’s your experience regarding D850 and Color at higher iso (like iso 6400)? I’ve read somewhere that it’s impressive even at higher iso values.

Your experience regarding the need of higher shutter speed seems to be the correct procedure.

My kind of photographing includes:

kids in movement - ordinary family pictures (often handheld)
Portraits - both non-/controlled situations (both tripod/handheld).
Football (soccer) - monopod/tripod.
Raptor like golden eagles (sometimes in good light, but often dusk/dawn) - tripod.

[Frode]

Decades ago Ansel Adams* wrote in his book The Camera that when using a 35mm SLR with a 50 mm lens he needed 1/250 to get critically sharp pictures. Lenses and sensors have only gotten better and more detailed since that. Seems that the 1/FL "rule" was bad already 40 years ago.

* page 116, First edition, second printing, 1981

Thank you, Peter🙂.

Hmm, that I wasn’t aware of! Suppose one should «listen» to what AA wrote.

[Frode]

I would have nothing to add, but...

My keeper rate raised marginally when I switched from D7000 to D750.  The 16MP DX sensor of D7000 was of an FX D800/810-class one in terms of pixel density.  I find the 24MP D750 is a little more forgiving.  But I would have to say that even at 1/125 sec. with a 50mm lens, you are not allowed to be nonchalant.

Thank you, Akira 🙂.

Seems to me that you «all» agree in using higher shutter speed than 1/FL 😊.

Still learning, so I really appreciate your advice/effort.