Author Topic: Incredible, but credible?  (Read 6104 times)

Akira

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Incredible, but credible?
« on: April 24, 2018, 16:15:32 »
New demonstration of Adobe's "Deep-Fill" function employing the deep learning engine.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/6361970567/nvidia-s-content-aware-fill-uses-deep-learning-to-produce-incredible-results
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armando_m

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2018, 17:01:04 »
Akira, thanks for the link

Amazing results

it goes well until they start fixing faces, replacing eyes, removing hair
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Akira

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2018, 17:08:56 »
it goes well until they start fixing faces, replacing eyes, removing hair

LOL!  I totally agree!
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CS

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2018, 17:11:07 »
Wow!
Carl

David Paterson

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2018, 19:25:09 »
I have mixed feelings about this. Of course, it will be of great use to many photogs, portraitists especially. If its use was limited to hiding the occasional blemish on a girl's face and similar cosmetic applications, I would be in favour of it. But it will no doubt be used in ways far beyond that - to change fundamentally a landscape, a city street, the interior of a house, a pretty face - and present the image as being real. Unscrupulous people will use it to scam and cheat; it opens new doors to crime.

One of the fundamental things about photography used to be that IT DID represent reality or something very close to it; and so people believed what they were seeing. But with the coming of digital, all that changed. It became childishly easy to make quite major changes to any image, in post-production. The public know this and the effect has been that people are now very suspicious of photographs and tend to believe that every - or nearly every - photograph has been faked in some way. I have exhibitions fairly regularly and the following conversation or a version of it is common -

Member of the public - "This is lovely, but what did it really look like?"
Me - "It looked exactly as you see it."
MOTP - "Really? I'm sorry but I find that hard to believe - at least you took the sky from somewhere different?"
Me - "I don't do that".
MOTP (winks) - "Sure - don't worry - I won't tell anyone else."

There is already a popular style in modern photography, often called photo-art, in which idealised images are constructed from elements gathered not just from the "background" location but from anywhere and any time, or season, the photo-artist chooses. This means that you may find yourself examining something which looks like a photograph, but is actually a work of the imagination with bits of it harvested from all around the globe. This is fine as long as the image is correctly described as "photo-art" or "photo-based illustration" but the problem is th at it is often just called photography; which it isn't.

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2018, 19:40:50 »
I have mixed feelings about this. Of course, it will be of great use to many photogs, portraitists especially. If its use was limited to hiding the occasional blemish on a girl's face and similar cosmetic applications, I would be in favour of it. But it will no doubt be used in ways far beyond that - to change fundamentally a landscape, a city street, the interior of a house, a pretty face - and present the image as being real. Unscrupulous people will use it to scam and cheat; it opens new doors to crime.

One of the fundamental things about photography used to be that IT DID represent reality or something very close to it; and so people believed what they were seeing. But with the coming of digital, all that changed. It became childishly easy to make quite major changes to any image, in post-production. The public know this and the effect has been that people are now very suspicious of photographs and tend to believe that every - or nearly every - photograph has been faked in some way. I have exhibitions fairly regularly and the following conversation or a version of it is common -

Member of the public - "This is lovely, but what did it really look like?"
Me - "It looked exactly as you see it."
MOTP - "Really? I'm sorry but I find that hard to believe - at least you took the sky from somewhere different?"
Me - "I don't do that".
MOTP (winks) - "Sure - don't worry - I won't tell anyone else."

There is already a popular style in modern photography, often called photo-art, in which idealised images are constructed from elements gathered not just from the "background" location but from anywhere and any time, or season, the photo-artist chooses. This means that you may find yourself examining something which looks like a photograph, but is actually a work of the imagination with bits of it harvested from all around the globe. This is fine as long as the image is correctly described as "photo-art" or "photo-based illustration" but the problem is th at it is often just called photography; which it isn't.

Interestingly, photography is just about the only form of “Art” where the artist didn’t make it up. And of course we also know that even that isn’t really true most of the time anyway. I expect that a decade from now there will be a movement called “true photography” which focuses precisely on that, just as the F64 group was a reaction to the pictorialists.

Photography is dead, long live photography!

Akira

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2018, 22:04:31 »
Dave, you paraphrased my concern nicely.

Jack, I would have to agree with most of your comment.

As we all are aware, we've already seen tons of faked images in SNS: the mountain of Machu Picchu looking like a man's side face, the golden cloud looking like a detailed dragon, a huge anaconda whose body is about 1m in diameter, etc.

Unfortunately, "photoshop" has already been used as verb meaning "fake".

I know that it is difficult and tricky to draw a clear line between photography and faked image.  Retouching has been common technique since the photographic glass plate.  Composite images using photo montage and multiple exposure are commonly known as photographic techniques.

I'm not going to start a "is it photography?" discussion or dispute.  But people would be (even) more skeptical about the photography especially in terms of its journalistic function.
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bobfriedman

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2018, 00:03:43 »
i want this.
Robert L Friedman, Massachusetts, USA
www.pbase.com/bobfriedman

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2018, 00:13:47 »
FYI, this is not Adobe's tool, it is an NVIDIA research project

https://news.developer.nvidia.com/new-ai-imaging-technique-reconstructs-photos-with-realistic-results/

Just want to get the attribution right, since I work there.

Akira

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2018, 01:32:01 »
FYI, this is not Adobe's tool, it is an NVIDIA research project

https://news.developer.nvidia.com/new-ai-imaging-technique-reconstructs-photos-with-realistic-results/

Just want to get the attribution right, since I work there.

Jack, thank you for the correction!  Fortunately, the intention of the thread is not largely affected.   ::)
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Ann

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2018, 01:55:03 »
I do use Adobe's CAF from time to time and it can be useful for the removal of unwanted objects in the image but it can leave smeary results. If you look carefully at the images in the Nvidea images, you will see evidence of that smeariness and the loss of fine texture

The tool is not "automatic" but does depend on the user having some skill in defining and selecting which "holes" in the image needs to filled; which parts of the image may be used to provide the fill and which parts may not be used.
I find that I usually need to do some manual cloning as a final clean up.

I understand that work on the CAF technology is on-going and we can expect to see improvements in the results as time goes on.

However, to my mind, it is still better to reshoot rather than repair a bad image if at all possible.

Akira

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2018, 20:12:17 »
I use CAF only to remove unwanted objects or dust spots in the non-textural areas like sky, bokeh, flat wall, etc.

Apparently the purpose of this demo by NVIDIA is to show how promising their GPU is as AI processor for the deep learning technology.
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Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2018, 02:59:18 »
I use CAF only to remove unwanted objects or dust spots in the non-textural areas like sky, bokeh, flat wall, etc.

Apparently the purpose of this demo by NVIDIA is to show how promising their GPU is as AI processor for the deep learning technology.

Yes, we do basic research on all sorts of image processing, machine learning etc. to help enable industry to build better products and services. Then we sell our hardware+software platform to support those use cases. AI is being applied to almost anything you can think of in image processing.

Akira

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2018, 03:10:36 »
Jack, so, you work for NVIDIA?  I'm aware that the GPUs are also used as processors for the block chain authentication.
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Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Incredible, but credible?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2018, 08:03:04 »
Jack, so, you work for NVIDIA?  I'm aware that the GPUs are also used as processors for the block chain authentication.

Yes I do. It is an interesting place to be these days. I’ve worked in semiconductor companies for the past 20 years and the recent developments are as exciting as anything I’ve seen in all that time. I’m not a big block chain fan though. I think it is extremely wasteful among other things.