Author Topic: Nikon Mount Conversion Service - The 'Silver Bullet' for the Future?  (Read 8655 times)

chambeshi

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I think Ilkka made some great points, esp the getting used and getting better by becoming accoustomed to your gear. I felt cameras like the F4, FM2, F100, D3, D500 & D850 became like body parts over time and I do not even use the display over a day of shooting. Reliability, Dependability, Reproducability .... I shot shiploads of film from 1983 till 2004 ... with the D500 and D850 I feel the display has its merits but for normal shooting I simply do not need it.

The state of mirrorless is generations from that.

I watch and wait ...
I agree. Learnt a few more things. Thanks for all the valuable inputs
I try and be agnostic over DSLR vs MLS. As has been said before by several users, DSLRs embodied in the D850 demonstrate how we can expect future DSLRs to pull in key innovations from mirrorless (not only video which i confess I've yet to try on any of my Nikons)
I too watch and wait and am very largely happy with my gear. It's never been better; yet on the other hand, the FM2 and F3 sure seem to have been so much simpler :-)
Here's a post i put out earlier on one of these mercenary forums aimed at emptying wallets and worse  ;)

This thread is having fun trying to outguess the future of the industry that's shaping out into the digital photography of 2020 and beyond. As with all economic models trying to forecast the future, errors are our only surety. To quote the great statistician, George E. P. Box (son in law of the legendary R.A. Fisher) "All models are wrong. Some are useful" [Journal of the American Statistical Association, December 1976, V ol. 71(3)]

Considered overall, Nikon is very hard to match. Consider the range of great glass from the Nikkor 14-24 f2.8E thru to the 800 f5.6E. it's impossible to match in diversity and overall versatility of performance. Alone, the 2 sets of Three-dragons [14-24 f2.8; 24-70 f2.8E;70-200 all f2.8E FL and 16-35 f4G, 24-120 f4G, 70-200 f4G] cover a great deal of genres. Then there's half a century's accumulation of primes. They include quite a few that continue to work surprisingly well on today's DSLRs. Some of the extant Nikkors are very very good indeed. If it's not here, there are 3rd party Nikon-fits if you can afford Zeiss etc

The diversity of Nikon DSLRs is unique: from the Df through the affordable D610, D750 and D810 to the new tripartite: D500, D850 and D5 + several DX choices. And the Used market holds no lack of high-performing bargains.

Nikon gear exhibits a tendency to hang around, even out living its first owner(s)

It is hard to believe Nikon will abandon this legacy. Oh! did I forget about Nikon CLS? Well do google Jeff McNally for further info

Welcome to the Greater Nikon Ecosystem  One only lives once, after all

pluton

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The short flange focal distances of current mirrorless designs have the disadvantage of creating severe peripheral light fall-off and a tendency for peripheral colour shift.  The light fall-off is mitigated by designing severe barrel distortion into the lenses, but then you either tolerate the light fall-off and distortion or you correct them, and either way image quality suffers.   
My speculation:
On short-register mirrorless, the classic barrel distortion vs. peripheral illumination issue may be less determinative than with the deep mirror box of the SLR. 
My two Fuji X lenses---14/2.8 and 23/1.4---have a very, very low amount of barrel distortion, yet the peripheral illumination seems nominal.
I checked them on the Fuji X camera, but with tape covering the body-lens contacts, so neither camera nor raw converter 'knew' what lens was attached.

Keith B., Santa Monica, CA, USA

Roland Vink

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Just because a camera has a very short flange distance, the designer can still build wide-angle lenses with retrofocus optics to improve corner illumination and so the ray-angle is nearly perpendicular to the sensor. However they have the option of using corrective optics much closer to the film plane (compared to SLR lenses) to improve performance. The same is true on a mirrorless camera with a long flange distance, but that could mean some lenses have rear elements which protrude far into the mount, with very little real-estate out front for focus, aperture and zoom rings (consider the old Nikkor-O 2.1cm lens), so handling would not be so good, not an elegant solution.

Also, I am sure it is only a matter of time before sensors are better able to handle oblique light, so that really compact wide lenses (such as Leica) are viable on mirrorless cameras.

pluton

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A mount conversion is only realistic if the lens is originally designed so that the electronics and rear part of the barrel are replaceable.

This. 
Also, IF the prophesied adapter worked really well and reliably (unknown possibility), AND was priced comparably to Sigma's mount conversion service (another unknown), then the adapter would be the 'conversion'.
A lot of unknowns, but if the adapter didn't work well in use, we'd all know in pretty short order.
Keith B., Santa Monica, CA, USA

Øivind Tøien

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This. 
Also, IF the prophesied adapter worked really well and reliably (unknown possibility), AND was priced comparably to Sigma's mount conversion service (another unknown), then the adapter would be the 'conversion'.
A lot of unknowns, but if the adapter didn't work well in use, we'd all know in pretty short order.

If history is any indication, there is a good chance a Nikon designed adapter could work really well, looking to the FT-1 adapter for the Nikon 1 system. The adapter has a very solid construction including a tripod attachment. The limitations in use with that adapter (only center focus point available, longest shutter speed about 1 sec with most bodies without mechanical shutter, and newest bodies cannot use the exotic long lenses) seem to in the body, introduced by Nikon for unknown reasons or no reason at all. Except for those limitations, it works flawlessly whether the lens is AFS or manual focus (no screwdrive focus though), has VR or not, has E-aperture or aperture controlled by the internal actuator (the FT-1 has a built in motor that controls the mechanical aperture coupling).
Øivind Tøien

Les Olson

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Just because a camera has a very short flange distance, the designer can still build wide-angle lenses with retrofocus optics to improve corner illumination and so the ray-angle is nearly perpendicular to the sensor.[...]

Also, I am sure it is only a matter of time before sensors are better able to handle oblique light, so that really compact wide lenses (such as Leica) are viable on mirrorless cameras.

Yes, but the point of mirrorless design is that lenses do not need retrofocus or complex corrections so they can be small and light. 

Accepting for the sake of argument that a technological fix to the oblique light issue can be developed, what assurance is there that it will be developed?  The alternative, telling people it is not a problem and only fuddy-duddies worry about it, is easier, cheaper and therefore more attractive.  That is what we have been seeing for several years in the music reproduction business, and if you read the dpreview article linked to in the first post of this thread, you can observe it in camera marketing. 

armando_m

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Interesting thread and a lot of opinions some of which I share as a photo aficionado
This is serious & funny at the same time. I really love it!
+1 a tiny camera is a nice curiosity , but not very user friendly, I like my V1 , but it does take effort and some times can be rather frustrating if I forget this is just a fun camera without the flexibility of my D800

Outside the box maybe?  But I think if Nikon brought back the DL concept, but with a 20mp FX sensor....those bad boys would sell.  And no mount worries.
Interesting concept, more so if it is revived with interchangeable lenses, instead of forcing to buy multiple bodies just to have different angle of view

....
What I am doing is taking my foot off the "buy" pedal for a moment to assess where Nikon is going.
....
I want to see what Nikon's intent is before I buy anything further (esp. AF lenses) from Nikon.
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I've been in that mode even since I got a D300, took me a while to replace it with a D800, did it once I was convinced it really was a step forward (for me). Something Nikon doesn't do very well is communicate it's intentions going forward, so planning a move is difficult

If history is any indication, there is a good chance a Nikon designed adapter could work really well, looking to the FT-1 adapter for the Nikon 1 system.
...
My personal preference would be an adapter, with full functionality and not intentionally reduced like the FT1. I'll rather keep my lenses usable with F mount cameras and the new system via an adapter.

I can write my wish list but so far Nikon has not read my mind the last few times I did it, so, I'll wait and see, if I had to replace my D800 today, I'll likely buy a D850

Anyway, this is a nice discussion
Armando Morales
D800, Nikon 1 V1, Fuji X-T3

Ilkka Nissilä

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Well, if customers largely stop buying "to wait and see" then Nikon won't be launching anything pretty soon after (since they won't have any money to pay salaries). It sends the message from customer to Nikon: "what you make today is not useful to me". If something that they make is in fact suitable and useful, buying it sends the correct message. Of course, one should not buy what one does not need.

OCD

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Well, if customers largely stop buying "to wait and see" then Nikon won't be launching anything pretty soon after (since they won't have any money to pay salaries). It sends the message from customer to Nikon: "what you make today is not useful to me". If something that they make is in fact suitable and useful, buying it sends the correct message. Of course, one should not buy what one does not need.

Yep, it returns to the question of:  what is good enough?    The gear these days is really good, so the incremental changes in feature set aren't necessarily very enticing, so "wait and see" becomes a rational strategy.  Or this is in the realm of Thom Hogan's "last camera syndrome."  For a lot of people, they're all set with what they have.

I understand mirrorless is the trend, but I'm not positive it's the ultimate end point.  Count me in the fully functional adaptor crowd as I like the lenses I have and have no interest in starting a new lens family in a different mount.  And...I'll use my D750 until it croaks as well, so maybe I'm one of the "last camera syndrome" kind of guys at this point.  But then again, I'm only a hobbyist, I don't require the latest and greatest to make a living, it's all for fun for me. 

I'm actually still blown away by the quality of modern gear, it's really quite awesome.   


JKoerner007

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    Well, if customers largely stop buying "to wait and see" then Nikon won't be launching anything pretty soon after (since they won't have any money to pay salaries). It sends the message from customer to Nikon: "what you make today is not useful to me". If something that they make is in fact suitable and useful, buying it sends the correct message. Of course, one should not buy what one does not need.

    My duty is not to Nikon, Nikon's duty is to me (all its customers).

    I can decide to spend my money (or not spend my money) how and when I want, whenever it pleases me, however it pleases me.

    When a company charges as much as Nikon charges for its products, that's a lot of <bleepin'> money, added-up, and I have the right to be concerned regarding which direction the future is likely to hold when I make my purchase decisions.

    The offering (and then sudden retraction of) the DL series shows that Nikon is willing to shut-down production of an entire line at the blink of an eye ... if it feels the line is not headed in the right direction.

    On the other hand, the release of the D850 also shows Nikon is willing to pull out all stops and produce what is arguably "the greatest single camera" available in today's market place.
    My opinion is Nikon makes the best cameras, and the best (super-telephoto) lenses in the market today. And I intend to keep spending money with Nikon ... but I just want to know where?

    The trouble is, almost all of Nikon glass is the outdated "G" physical diaphragm ... which I would never purchase today.
    Although I purchased many of their AI-S MF lenses, I have/am selling them all to upgrade to Zeiss glass. (Hence my previous thread, Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?)
    Further, while their new "E" electronic diaphragm AF glass is almost universally at the top its game, they're designed for DSLRs, not mirrorless ... which are coming sooner, not later.

    Even if Nikon "stopped making" any future DSLRs, if they kept making the ones that exist now (D5 / D850 / D500), I think they could still keep selling these cameras for many years to come, because they are simply fantastic. (The negligible advances in sensor excellence over the last few years indicate image quality is reaching a plateau.)

    In the same fashion, Nikon continued to make film cameras, even when film was essentially dead, so I want some assurances that DSLRs (and in particular DSLR AF lenses) are not going to suddenly stop in production, in favor of mirrorless.

    In fine, I hope that Nikon brings out mirrorless as a companion to DSLRs, not as a full replacement, at least for the next 5+ years.

    I also want to know if Nikon 'E' glass can be transcended to mirrorless format (by adapter or, preferably, by lens mount conversion), because then I will make certain purchase decisions their high-end 'E' AF glass.

    In closing, I believe the D850 is so good its relevance will last for a very, very, very long time, even if DSLR production stops tomorrow. That said, I don't see a very long future for DSLR advancement at this point; therefore, I don't see a very long future for DSLR glass, either.
    • The looming question is ... what about "right now" purchases?
    • Will they be protected with some kind of "transition bridge" (adapters/lens mount conversions)? Or,
    • Will they be abandoned?
    My gut feeling is they will be protected, because Nikon protected its customers by keeping the F-mount in the film-to-digital transition (unlike Canon, which dropped its entire lens line).

    However, this time Nikon is very clearly creating a different mount for their mirrorless (judging by the recent patents, as Roland pointed out), so I want to know if/how well any transitions are going to work with (what will soon be) the old way as it makes room for the new way.

    But I still plan on spending my money with Nikon, because I am 100% confident they'll be producing high-quality, regardless.[/list]

    Steven Paulsen

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    How bout a "Ninon/Cankon" Pelix? Didn't the original F have a model for NASA that didn't have a mirror?

    The big guys are doing a ton of PR just to get people to switch to a camera body that you cannot hold on to. The other side of the coin seems to be that Nikon is also in the game of planned obsolescence. They are shooting themselves in the foot no matter which way the advertiser sings.


    (I had a wonderful time snatching up MF glass when AF went crazy.)

    Frank Fremerey

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    My speculation:
    On short-register mirrorless, the classic barrel distortion vs. peripheral illumination issue may be less determinative than with the deep mirror box of the SLR. 
    My two Fuji X lenses---14/2.8 and 23/1.4---have a very, very low amount of barrel distortion, yet the peripheral illumination seems nominal.
    I checked them on the Fuji X camera, but with tape covering the body-lens contacts, so neither camera nor raw converter 'knew' what lens was attached.



    As a professional movie cameraman in Hollywood you could add some spice to the usefullness of still cameras for video production, Keith?
    You are out there. You and your camera. You can shoot or not shoot as you please. Discover the world, Your world. Show it to us. Or we might never see it.

    Me: https://youpic.com/photographer/frankfremerey/

    JKoerner007

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    The big guys are doing a ton of PR just to get people to switch to a camera body that you cannot hold on to.

    Agreed, the 'smallness' of mirrorless cameras is either 1) overstated, unless for a snapper's travel camera, and/or 2) an impediment to serious photography.


    The other side of the coin seems to be that Nikon is also in the game of planned obsolescence. They are shooting themselves in the foot no matter which way the advertiser sings.

    I don't think so.

    One thing about Nikon (that even its detractors have to admit) is that they kick-ass in the QUALITY department.
    (Best AF system; best Base-ISO image quality; best high-ISO image quality; and their new 'E' series lenses are, across-the-board, Best in Class (esp. their super-telephotos, but also the 70-200, the 28 f/1.4, and the 105 f/1.4).

    No matter what anyone's preferences are, brand-wise, everyone knows this. So there is universal respect for Nikon quality, IMO.

    Where Nikon is 'obsolete,' and really hurting, is in their MOUNT CHOICE. It is archaic and in sore need of an upgrade (which, as the new patents indicate, for mirrorless, they are changing ... arguably to be at the forefront of everyone).

    I agree, there are certain clumsy decisions Nikon could make to guarantee its obsolescence.

    However, because of their class-leading quality, they could also make decisions to guarantee their leadership 8)

    IMO, if Nikon comes out with D5 / D850 / D500-level mirrorless cameras ... removing the limitations of the mirror ... and adds with their transition lens adapters [or, preferably, a lens conversion service for legacy 'E' glass (you can forget about 'G' / 'D' mechanical glass)], they could quickly and effectively position themselves to be a more exciting choice than anyone.

    If they add to that a complete face-lift of their AI-S MF glass, in design as well as the best they have in glass, they will truly be in a class by themselves.


    (I had a wonderful time snatching up MF glass when AF went crazy.)

    Yes, and I have enjoyed AI-S glass myself (and still have a few Pre-AI versions, if only for nostalgia).

    I think Nikon is positioned to do either ruin itself ... or redefine itself ... if they seize the opportunity to do "everything better than anyone" ... and I have a sneaking suspicion it will be the latter.

    They already have the majority of class-leading excellence down, as defined above, so with good transition choices Nikon stands a very real chance of moving from #2 to #1 8)

    pluton

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    As a professional movie cameraman in Hollywood you could add some spice to the usefullness of still cameras for video production, Keith?

    Still cameras that shoot video represent a chance for small budget, single operators to shoot a documentary or short film without a large cash outlay for equipment, or perhaps for a TV series whose budget does not allow for the rental of expensive digital cinema cameras and their many accompanying parts and accessories.

    However: It would be rare for a professional camera person to prefer the still camera form factor if a video/cinema specific camera design was available.

     Video-capable still cameras have been used on big budget feature films, where a small camera is needed to fit into a cramped physical space, or for 'crash cam' duties, where the possibility of destruction of the camera exists.
    The 2013 Ron Howard-directed car racing movie "Rush" used Canon DSLRs crammed into the cockpit of Formula One cars to get extreme closeups of the driver while actually driving the car.
    I know of, but have not seen, the Norwegian TV series 'Dag', which was shot with Canon 1Ds cameras as the main production cameras.
    Keith B., Santa Monica, CA, USA

    David H. Hartman

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    I don't see mirrorless as the "successor" of DSLR but just a different type of camera. I prefer optical viewfinders and am staying with them.

    My guess and it only a guess is Nikon will release a mirrorless camera with a 46.5mm flange focus distance like original Nikon F. This would allow using both a classic dSLR/fSLR and mirrorless camera with the same set of lenses with no need for an adapter. The usual confusion over AI, AIS, AIP, AF, AF-D, G, E and so many more :) might cause a bit of consternation.

    I still haven't seen the mirrorless camera feel I have to have. I hope there is a lot of life left in dSLR(s).

    Just because a camera has a very short flange distance, the designer can still build wide-angle lenses with retrofocus optics to improve corner illumination and so the ray-angle is nearly perpendicular to the sensor.

    This is an interesting point. Thank you!

    But the photographer's best interest is usually just that: use what you have a make the most out of it rather than buy new gear.

    The Nikon F mount has allowed me to keep most of my lenses that I bought from 1979 to 1999 and using them with dSLR that I bought starting in 2004. I've bought a few lenses from the pre-AI era and some from the AF-D to AF-G since. I mostly add lenses rather than replace them.

    The smell of new equipment is enticing.

    Mirrorless is basically making a still camera out of a video camera and vice versa. This is especially in the interest of those companies who failed to produce a competitive still camera system. IMO video and stills are shot in a fundamentally different way and have little in common.

    I agree with the complete paragraph but it is nice to be able to dabble in video with my D800. To me a hybrid is fine if it doesn't compromise the still photography function and doesn't add too much R&D to the price.

    I want a still camera first and foremost.

    I would not take these gear-switch pushing websites too seriously. I do not believe their views have photographers' best interest at heart but their wallets.

    A site needs income and so advertising. If they review camera equipment then I'm more comfortable with their reviews if the advertise something other than cameras and lenses, e.g. a website host.

    Having to view the world through an EVF would be a total loss for me and it would lead into my withdrawal from photography because there would be no joy in it.

    For still photograph a dSLR primarily and for candid people photograph a rangefinder (if I could afford one) would be my preference. I could see adding a mirrorless F bayonet camera for use where the mirror and shutter sound is undesirable or not allowed.

    Thanks to everyone in this thread. I'm finding it quite interesting.

    Dave Hartman
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