Author Topic: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?  (Read 16833 times)

JKoerner007

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Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« on: March 19, 2018, 02:28:47 »
I have enjoyed using my AI-S lenses for the last two years, since I switched to Nikon.
They're really quite good, and quite nicely-sized, but (let's be honest) they're a little cheesy and archaic in design.

I tried purchasing a few of the older Nikkor UD-Auto versions, of decades gone by, and these are a lot more beautiful to hold by comparison to the modern AI-S.
Trouble is, the glass itself is sorely outdated :-\

Every so often, the all-manual Nikkor glass has received facelifts, for better or worse.
The original, all metal design was my preference.
Zeiss itself, for example, just redesigned itself ... discarding what, in my opinion, was one of its strongest points ... and that was its all metal design.
(Now they have rubber bands for focus rings :-\ )

Yet companies like Leica and Voigtländer still have the classic all-metal design, and they are able to make world class optics in tiny sizes.

Since Nikon has made it a point of focusing on the higher-end markets, and is creating such stellar "Gold Ring" 'E' AF lenses ... I would like to see Nikon make the same total facelift, and completely renovate, all of its MF glass.

The first thing they need to do is get rid of the rubber focus rings, as well as the multi-color (almost childlike) index numbers of the current AI-S lenses.
Basically, Nikon should put the entire AI-S glass to pasture and come out with a whole new line of ultra-sleek, super-high-quality, all-metal (and supremely-capable) manual focus lenses.

Perhaps they will do this for whatever mirrorless line is on the horizon.
But they need to completely redesign the toy-like, archaic AI-S glass, completely renaming "the next era" would be a good idea also.

If Nikon targeted this evolution for its presumed forthcoming mirrorless line, the resulting manual-focus lenses would also more readily adapt to legacy DSLR cameras.

Think about it:The only thing that is really keeping Sony cameras a competitive factor is the fact they have companies like Leica, Zeiss, Voigtländer, etc. making new lenses for them.
(Certainly Sony's lenses, by themselves, are yawners.)

I think Nikon needs to keep its "Gold Ring" 'E' lenses coming ... but put an end to the AI-S glass of yesteryear.
Then they need to come out with their own ultra-sleek, supremely-capable 'FL ED'-quality, all-metal MF options ... to keep people's interests going. (If not Otus-quality at least Milvus-quality, but why not Otus-quality?)

Just imagine a whole new array of tiny, AI-S-sized, but Otus-quality Nikon glass like the Leica Summilux-M 1:1.4/50mm ASPH, for instance, but designed by Nikon for Nikon.

Who would buy a $4000 Zeiss Otis, or a $2500 Milvus, with the added weight, if they could get a quality lens like the above, for around 3,000, made by Nikon ... for Nikon?

Thoughts?

Roland Vink

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2018, 03:02:58 »
The last all-new classic manual focus lens that Nikon made was the tiny AI-P 45/2.8, discontinued at the end of 2005. They do still continue to make some older AI-S models. They had plenty of time to create other similar lenses but have put their resources into AF instead. I doubt Nikon will make lenses like that again, it's very much a niche market now which has been filled by Zeiss and Cosina.

I do agree that most of the recent models are big fast and highly engineered designs, it would be nice to see high quality lenses with slower aperture in a more compact (and cheaper) package.

A compact lens like the Leica Summilux-M 1:1.4/50mm ASPH would be near impossible in F-mount. The reason it is so small is that it's for a mirrorless camera. One of the reasons the Otus is so big (besides the fast aperture) is that it's an SLR design, the rear lens has to clear the reflex mirror.

JKoerner007

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2018, 03:16:38 »
A compact lens like the Leica Summilux-M 1:1.4/50mm ASPH would be near impossible in F-mount. The reason it is so small is that it's for a mirrorless camera[/b

That was my point: a whole new, sleek super-quality Nikkor MF lens profile ... as high-end as they can make them ... for the new Nikon mirrorless that are doubtless on their way.

No more "budget toy" look; but a refined, high-end look.

Nikon's new AF E (FL) lenses are best in class ... across the board ... and I think they can do the same thing in MF glass as well, if they set their mind to it.

Leica/Otus-quality, Leica-sized ... but Nikon made for Nikon mirrorless.

I think the sporting DSLRs will last longer than the D850 (because of super-telephotos, and because they need man-sized cameras in back of them, not mirrorless toys).

But street photography, portrait, and landscape can get big sensors into little cameras ... with little, but super-high-quality lenses.

The camera I see morphing into a mirrorless first ... is the D850.

That same exquisite sensor ... into a mirrorless body, similar capabilities ... with all new glass.

JKoerner007

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2018, 03:24:17 »
The Sony cameras are sexy 8)

But their "GM" lens line is not ... they're the ugliest damned lenses out there :-[

We it not for the equally "sexy" Zeiss & Cosina (as well as "thank God for adapters"), no one would buy Sony.

Nikon's gold ring 'E' glass is sexy ... but Nikon's AI-S lenses are about as sexy as grandma's panties ;D

They need to dump those toys, come out with a sexy mirrorless camera (not retro, nobody wants that anymore); people want to see modern, sexy, and capable.

Nikon needs to look forward, not backward, and re-define itself.

Keep legacy glass and THE BEST legacy DSLRS ... to keep their existing clientele satisfied ... but move forward toward a new era.

Don't forget, high-quality MF glass commands the highest price ... because it produces the best results.

Nikon needs to be part of that with their new mirrorless offerings.
(Unlike Sony, Nikon doesn't have to "hope others can make nice glass for them"; they can make the finest optics for themselves.)

Øivind Tøien

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2018, 04:14:21 »
What is good locking lens cosmetics is in the eyes of the beholder and can change with time and what one are used to see. At some point I thought the AI/AIS lenses looked really old fashioned, and wished all my lenses to look like the AF-lenses (!). Today I really hate the feeling of those plasticity, grinding lenses, and love my AIS lenses.

Anyone who has operated a camera at -40°C will appreciate the rubber on the focus ring. Touching metal to bare skin at those temperature can quickly give you frost burns. I recall Bjørn (and Erik?) applying rubber to the focus ring of their 125mm APO Lanthars. The colors on the aperture scale has functionality, it refers to the depth of field scale, and is not just a gimmick. Should one get rid of functionality over cosmetics? In my eyes, the beauty of a lens lies in its function. So here this what beauty looks like to me  :D  :



Øivind Tøien

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2018, 04:18:27 »
I agree that the presumed arrival of a Nikon 24x36 mirrorless is an opportunity for Nikon to issue some new lenses.  Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to see some smaller, traditionally-made manual focus lenses, they'll probably be AF and plastic-styled and bloated to allow room for the electric motor and circuit boards inside.
One interesting possibility:  If Nikon produces a mirrorless camera with a [typical for mirrorless]short flange to focus distance, Zeiss may be able to issue their well-regarded Loxia manual focus lenses for Nikon.
Keith B., Santa Monica, CA, USA

JKoerner007

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2018, 04:43:26 »
I agree that the presumed arrival of a Nikon 24x36 mirrorless is an opportunity for Nikon to issue some new lenses.  Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to see some smaller, traditionally-made manual focus lenses, they'll probably be AF and plastic-styled and bloated to allow room for the electric motor and circuit boards inside.

I agree this will doubtless be the case also ...


One interesting possibility:  If Nikon produces a mirrorless camera with a [typical for mirrorless]short flange to focus distance, Zeiss may be able to issue their well-regarded Loxia manual focus lenses for Nikon.

I think this is the chance for Nikon to do "one better" ... and make its own "Loxia killer" in its own preferred Nikon mirrorless mount.

Sure, Nikon could sit back and rely on Zeiss to give them a "me too" copy of the Loxia ... but how boring is that.

This is Nikon's opportunity to show themselves to be a step above Sony for photography.
Nikon is steeped in lens history ... but it's time they stop looking back at astronaut photos, and retro-stye oldies ... and adapt & overcome.

People follow leaders.
They get excited by novelty and by superior ability.

Nikon already has its "status quo" faithful that they can "keep doing what they're doing" for, forever.

But a certain amount of followers are going to get bored.
A certain amount of followers are tired of the same old "grandmas panties" of AI-S lenses.
(And who wants to buy NEW AI-S lenses ... when you can get mint copies on eBay anyway?)

I think Nikon needs to take its appreciation for MF glass ... and show it ... by creating a whole new and absolutely capable set.
All new design, coatings, everything modern, including the look 8)

OCD

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 04:43:44 »
What is good locking lens cosmetics is in the eyes of the beholder and can change with time and what one are used to see. At some point I thought the AI/AIS lenses looked really old fashioned, and wished all my lenses to look like the AF-lenses (!). Today I really hate the feeling of those plasticity, grinding lenses, and love my AIS lenses.

Anyone who has operated a camera at -40°C will appreciate the rubber on the focus ring. Touching metal to bare skin at those temperature can quickly give you frost burns. I recall Bjørn (and Erik?) applying rubber to the focus ring of their 125mm APO Lanthars. The colors on the aperture scale has functionality, it refers to the depth of field scale, and is not just a gimmick. Should one get rid of functionality over cosmetics? In my eyes, the beauty of a lens lies in its function. So here this what beauty looks like to me  :D  :





+ 1


JKoerner007

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 04:49:48 »
+ 1


You guys are missing the whole point.

Anyone can buy those clunking old lenses on eBay. Nikon will never make money selling those things.

Keep buying them on eBay, if you're into them, but this is how Nikon will go extinct, trying to keep making those dinosaurs.

If they began making Leica-quality little manual focus lenses that is what will cause people to hit their hip pockets, and pay Nikon money, not for these old lenses.

OCD

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2018, 05:05:03 »
Not really. Nikon's not made MF lenses for a reason, the market is not there, it's a niche market (i.e. low volume/high prices).  Modern Nikon lenses will continue to have AF (and VR, and other such technology) although it's possible of course to manual focus with AF lenses. 

Hopefully if Nikon does mirrorless right they will be smaller and lighter as Roland alluded to.   Hope springs eternal.

As to the old Ai lenses, it's basically a nostalgia hit, but a nice one, they are fun.

I see your point, it would be cool if Nikon cranked out some stellar modern small manual focus primes for FX mirrorless, it just seems unlikely due to small market for such lenses.




richardHaw

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2018, 06:38:24 »
the tilt shift lenses come into mind  :o :o :o

Akira

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2018, 07:22:24 »
I'm not a big fan of the hill-and-dale style focus ring whose operational feel changes according to its orientation, which is a bit frustrating.  Shame that Cosina likes the same design...

I also prefer the rubberized focus rings of Nikkor K and later models.  The focus throw of Ais feels too short to focus on digital cameras.

As for the rubber ring to put on a metal focus ring, I've found this (Band.it):

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Band.it&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
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Erik Lund

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2018, 08:26:17 »
I'm not a big fan of the hill-and-dale style focus ring whose operational feel changes according to its orientation, which is a bit frustrating.  Shame that Cosina likes the same design...

I also prefer the rubberized focus rings of Nikkor K and later models.  The focus throw of Ais feels too short to focus on digital cameras.

As for the rubber ring to put on a metal focus ring, I've found this (Band.it):

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Band.it&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=


Nice, never seen these before, looks a bit thick but I guess they work very nicely :) Thanks
Erik Lund

Akira

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2018, 08:44:07 »

Nice, never seen these before, looks a bit thick but I guess they work very nicely :) Thanks

You know, I want to buy some hill-and-dale Nikkor to use one of these!  :o :o :o
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Øivind Tøien

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Re: Will Nikon Re-Invent the AI-S?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2018, 09:11:03 »
I could need one of those as a bumper on the rather too smooth surface of my Nikon 1  10mm AW lens. However I briefly looked for specs on the size, but only found the size of the shipping box listed.  :o
Øivind Tøien