Author Topic: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850  (Read 9665 times)

chambeshi

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Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« on: October 09, 2017, 11:46:51 »
FYI
https://diglloyd.com/blog/2017/20170929_0936-NikonD850-flange-focal-distance-defect.html

A problem attributed to sensor alignment in at least 3 D850s

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2017, 12:52:47 »
Interesting questions, but no definitive answers.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2017, 14:18:25 »
He fails to mention out of how many samples this is found to be an issue. "two D850 camera bodies (mine and two others) are confirmed as having this issue. See the comments by Stefan P. Other users report not finding an issue."  Other users are unspecified - how many?

A better way would be to ask his readership to do a test on their D850s and report all findings, including good copies. Lloyd finds problems in new products a little too often to believe that there is just random sampling without bias.

That said, the metal bayonet to sensor construction could be a little out of alignment, isn't that why Nikon went into the composite mirror box in the D810, to avoid the problem of metal being bent / deformed? Perhaps this is the side effect of having the more "marketable" all-metal construction of the mirror box. The percentage of bodies affected is unknown so it is hard to tell if this is a real issue affecting many people or not. I would have expected similar reports on other forums if it was a common issue.

I hope this increases the resale value of the D810 so I can get some money from selling it to fund the purchase of the "warped" D850.  ::)

I notice that new D850's haven't been arriving in stores in a while. They could be working on improvement.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2017, 14:31:45 »
He reports that his personal copy arrived.

https://diglloyd.com/blog/2017/20171008_0915-NikonD850-seems-good.html

See, this is random sampling. Buying a copy and reporting what is found on that copy. The earlier report was based on a copy which was lent to Lloyd (for what purpose? To find confirmation and publicity for an obvious problem?)

Les Olson

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2017, 16:09:26 »
What he says about it is flat wrong, so I am sceptical of his observations. 

He says that the lenses have to go beyond marked infinity focus to focus at infinity, and some do not reach infinity focus.  This, he says, is because the flange focal distance is too short: "[...] the flange focal distance on the D850 looks to be in gross error. I estimate that it is off by at least 100 microns (0.1mm), i.e., the flange focal distance might be 46.4mm instead of the required 46.5mm." 

But a lens is at infinity focus when the distance from the rear principal plane to the sensor is at its shortest (and equal to the focal length). The lens focuses closer by moving the rear principal plane away from the sensor.  That is why you use an extension tube to reduce closest focus distance, and why that means you lose infinity focus.  So if the flange focal distance was too short the effect would be increased closest focus distance, and infinity focus at closer indicated distance than infinity.  What he is describing would imply a flange focal distance that was too long.

Even if you allow for getting it the wrong way around, he is wrong. The effect of a 0.1mm difference in flange focal distance on infinity focus is minute - that is why we don't use really small extension tubes.  It is possible to do a rough calculation using the lens equation: 1/f = 1/u + 1/v, where f is focal length, u is distance to the subject and v is distance to the sensor.  If we take f to be 50mm, and take the rear principal plane to be at the rear flange, the difference between v being 46.4mm, 46.5mm and 46.6mm is focus at 645.2m, 666.7m, and 684.9m respectively.  The rotation of the focus ring is inversely proportional to the subject distance, so for a lens with 70mm diameter focus ring and a quarter turn from closest to infinity focus that 20m difference corresponds to a movement of the focus ring of two microns. I don't think you can detect that. 



CS

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2017, 16:36:43 »

 Lloyd finds problems in new products a little too often to believe that there is just random sampling without bias.


He certainly has an air of infallibility.
Carl

Kenneth Rich

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2017, 17:40:33 »
This could be a good time for potential 850 buyers to switch to a Df purchase, and for Nikon to offer a straight trade- in swap, if the problem is widespread.

bobfriedman

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2017, 17:40:51 »
i am waiting until Mar/Apr to buy a D850.......
Robert L Friedman, Massachusetts, USA
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2017, 03:25:20 »
i am waiting until Mar/Apr to buy a D850.......

The early adopter gets the worm? :D
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richardHaw

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2017, 04:00:40 »
some lenses have a tendency to do this to be honest.  :o :o :o
it can be 2-way. either the lens itself OR the sensor. ::)

David H. Hartman

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2017, 05:41:10 »
Can we assume this guy knows how to line up his tripod and camera to a brick wall that wasn't built by a drunk mason?
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richardHaw

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2017, 05:52:56 »
brick wall that wasn't built by a drunk mason?

 :o :o :o

Roland Vink

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2017, 06:57:46 »
There are cameras with sensors which shake off dust, and sensors which shift for image stabilisation. I wonder if they will make self-aligning sensors so regardless of mount and lens (mis)alignment, the sensor will be square to the image plane?

Øivind Tøien

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2017, 14:10:38 »
The effect of a 0.1mm difference in flange focal distance on infinity focus is minute

I have been exposed to such a problem with a couple of different non-pro DX bodies (both were exchanged), and I can attest to that a register distance that is off by 0.1 mm is not negligible and beyond Nikon's tolerances. It is in particular noticeable on short focal length lenses like utrawides or fisheyes, and especially if the sensor is not parallel to the mount it can affect optical performance. 
Øivind Tøien

Frank Fremerey

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Re: Sensor Alignment and Focus errors in D850
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2017, 14:22:36 »
What should I do to test my camera properly?

I use AF lenses most of the time but have some trouble with the 1.4/35 Ai-S which was not easy but possible to focus on the D600 and focussed very reliable on the D500. Neither green dot not on screen focussing works for me on the D850, only live view is reliable, zoom in and silent shutter.

Chris has better eyes and possibly AF settings affect green dot behaviour. AF-S/S seems to work fine
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